This is a strange statement It seems that Lord Carey disagrees with the law, does not like the judgments of senior judges and believes this is all a plot against Christians. He believes that a specially chosen group of judges will come to a conclusion closer to his own. Hmmmmmmm! I don’t entirely blame Lord Carey for being taken in by this small group of activists who have clearly used this tiny number of cases for political purpose. I have seen them operate at close hand and they have skills! Their influence is not to be underestimated – they can… Read more »
Richard Ashby
14 years ago
Lord Carey says ‘I am bound by my commitments as former Archbishop of Canterbury to defend the spiritual requirements of the Anglican Communion and of all sincere Christians. I am also bound to consider the rights of religious minorities’ Is this in the job description of the ABC? I don’t remember any previous holder of the office taking upon himself to pronounce years after his leaving office. ‘The Christian message of ‘love’ does not demean or disparage any individual (regardless of sexual orientation); the desire of the Christian is to limit self destructive conduct by those of any sexual orientation… Read more »
Susannah Clark
14 years ago
” My heart is in anguish at the spiritual state of this country.” I will pray for the former archbishop because he is troubled. I honestly think he is psychologically troubled by what he perceives as the ebbing away of the tenets he regards as integral to his view of a Christian country. I guess, I, as a transsexual christian, am part of that ebbing away. I guess those gay or lesbian partners, inside and outside the church, who seek to consecrate their fidelity and most intimate relationships before God, may be part of that ebbing away. Then there is… Read more »
Martin Reynolds
14 years ago
Ruth has done a first class job here – and throughout this story.
mynsterpreost (=David Rowett)
14 years ago
‘sincere Christians’. Would someone kindly unpack that adjective for me??
Rev Laurence Roberts
14 years ago
I wonder where George is planning to chain himself up ? – some villages still have stocks and ducking stools I understand !
Do not members of his own family circle need his help ?
JCF
14 years ago
“the desire of the Christian is to limit self destructive conduct by those of any sexual orientation”
Um, the desire of THIS Christian, is to judge and “limit” the conduct of ONLY myself, thank you.
As far as Lord Carey’s theocracy goes, count me out! [Y’know, if those of his hivemind should try to install such a regime on the left side of The Pond. And they have tried! O_o]
Father Ron Smith
14 years ago
I WAS Archbishop of Canterbury from 1991 – 2002.
I WAS the 103rd Archbishop of Canterbury,and
I WAS responsible for the spiritual welfare of 70
million Anglicans in the world-wide communion.
I WAS created Lord Carey of Clifton on retirement.
Compare the “I WAS” with the felicity of the I AM:
And who is this kicking Rowan Williams when he was down over the Sharia Law fiasco? He writes: “a legal marketplace in which people opt in and out based on religious affiliation opens the door to a parallel system of justice” The former archbishop says that accommodating sharia law would lead to further demands. “This is absolutely inevitable, since questions to do with the separation of ‘church and state’ are largely new to Islam. Sharia law trumps civil law every time.” He adds: “Many Muslim interpreters of sharia believe that it supersedes secular law and assume that its ‘God-given’ status… Read more »
Now, it appears that George Carey is a silly little man who has lost his power. He no longer has his throne as “king” of Canterbury. I saw him at his lowest ebb when he visited America two years ago. He fit right in with the right wing Southern Fundamentalists and they just loved him. It is time for him to leave the stage. Perhaps we should use one of those old vaudeville hooks to pull him into the wings so that he may exit Stage Right with all of the other wing-nuts. He is an embarrassment. He is also… Read more »
I’m surprised there’s been so little comment on the warning about “civil unrest!”
Is Carey threatening riots? He’s been around Akinola too long!
fibonaccisequins@aol.com
14 years ago
Carey is using the “bully’s veto” or “heckler’s veto”: Either I get my way or we’ll riot. Either you stop this liberal from speaking or we’ll shout her down. Either you stop that Jew from being an MP or we’ll disrupt Parliament. It is especially distasteful that he should invoke his former office to use the bully’s veto. This is somewhat far-fetched — I hope — but if a gay counselor refused to advise a Roman Catholic or conservative CofE couple, because the the churches these couples are members of persecute gay people, Lord Carey would be apoplectic, and demand… Read more »
Achilles
14 years ago
I do not agree with Carey’s implication that to be a sincere Christian one has to adhere to certain views on sexuality. On the other hand I am finding some views in the media about Christians ‘bleating’ about persecution misplaced. For me, the key in this witness statement is: “18. I am concerned that judges are unaware of these basic issues on the Christian faith; further it is difficult to see how it is appropriate for other religions to be considered by the Judiciary where the practices are further removed from our traditions.” There are at least two causes of… Read more »
Father Ron Smith
14 years ago
“Certainly I do feel that Christian culture is being undermined, quite systematically. This has often little to do though with the cases that Carey cites as evidence. The alternative of course is to be strong in one’s confidence in God.” – Achilles – I do hope, Achilles, that you will not think me a bit of a ‘Heel’ in taking issue here with your supposition that former Abp. Carey is right about his blaming the British government for side-lining the Christian faith. If Christianity is being undermined, conservatives like Lord Carey and +Winchester & Co., are themselves part of the… Read more »
Fr John
14 years ago
Am I ignorant, or isnt there a passage in the New Testament that tells us to make peace with our adversary, and not as Christians take them to the civil court. Leave alone threaten civil unrest.
Fundamentalists of whatever faith are the enemy of civil society, and its cohesion.
“‘sincere Christians’. Would someone kindly unpack that adjective for me??”
That’s easy – it means those who agree with Lord Carey.
Achilles
14 years ago
Father Ron Smith – I didn’t think I would take issue with you but… “Their insistence that…Christianity should have ‘most favoured nation’ status in an eclectic population of mostly British Commonwealth citizens is divisive, rather than a nation-building ploy.” First of all, I don’t know whether that *is* exactly what George Carey is doing but let’s take it at face value. Therefore, secondly, we are not ‘mostly British Commonwealth citizens’. I think I know what you mean but this is very loose, and it betrays I feel the unarticulated but profound inclination to deracination that self-identified liberals generally deploy –… Read more »
Father Ron Smith
14 years ago
Achilles, I’m afraid I don’t quite ‘get your argument here. I mentioned the category of British Commonwealth Citizens as descriptive of the prevailing majority – bearing in mind that Brits are a constitutive part of that ethnic mix – as are many of the immigrants. Because Britain has become part of the European Union, this did not automatically rob the U.K. of its membership of the British Commonwealth – whatever name you choose for its present status. The Queen, after all, is still the Queen – and Head of The Commonwealth, of which the U.K. is still a part. Regarding… Read more »
Do you want to step up to the plate and deny that Christianity in the UK, which happens to be a political entity in its own right, is the “majority faith and preponderant cultural matrix here?”
Thanks for the blessings but could you please actually respond?
Father Ron Smith
13 years ago
“Do you want to step up to the plate and deny that Christianity in the UK, which happens to be a political entity in its own right, is the “majority faith and preponderant cultural matrix here?” – Achilles – A: It really depends on what you mean by ‘faith’ when you speak of the UK as being predominantly ‘Christian’ and the dominant culture. If you are speaking nominally, you may indeed be right. However, if by ‘faith’ you actually mean church-attending ‘faithful’ you may not be quite in line with the statistics.This is not a criticism about religious observance in… Read more »
This is a strange statement It seems that Lord Carey disagrees with the law, does not like the judgments of senior judges and believes this is all a plot against Christians. He believes that a specially chosen group of judges will come to a conclusion closer to his own. Hmmmmmmm! I don’t entirely blame Lord Carey for being taken in by this small group of activists who have clearly used this tiny number of cases for political purpose. I have seen them operate at close hand and they have skills! Their influence is not to be underestimated – they can… Read more »
Lord Carey says ‘I am bound by my commitments as former Archbishop of Canterbury to defend the spiritual requirements of the Anglican Communion and of all sincere Christians. I am also bound to consider the rights of religious minorities’ Is this in the job description of the ABC? I don’t remember any previous holder of the office taking upon himself to pronounce years after his leaving office. ‘The Christian message of ‘love’ does not demean or disparage any individual (regardless of sexual orientation); the desire of the Christian is to limit self destructive conduct by those of any sexual orientation… Read more »
” My heart is in anguish at the spiritual state of this country.” I will pray for the former archbishop because he is troubled. I honestly think he is psychologically troubled by what he perceives as the ebbing away of the tenets he regards as integral to his view of a Christian country. I guess, I, as a transsexual christian, am part of that ebbing away. I guess those gay or lesbian partners, inside and outside the church, who seek to consecrate their fidelity and most intimate relationships before God, may be part of that ebbing away. Then there is… Read more »
Ruth has done a first class job here – and throughout this story.
‘sincere Christians’. Would someone kindly unpack that adjective for me??
I wonder where George is planning to chain himself up ? – some villages still have stocks and ducking stools I understand !
Do not members of his own family circle need his help ?
“the desire of the Christian is to limit self destructive conduct by those of any sexual orientation”
Um, the desire of THIS Christian, is to judge and “limit” the conduct of ONLY myself, thank you.
As far as Lord Carey’s theocracy goes, count me out! [Y’know, if those of his hivemind should try to install such a regime on the left side of The Pond. And they have tried! O_o]
I WAS Archbishop of Canterbury from 1991 – 2002.
I WAS the 103rd Archbishop of Canterbury,and
I WAS responsible for the spiritual welfare of 70
million Anglicans in the world-wide communion.
I WAS created Lord Carey of Clifton on retirement.
Compare the “I WAS” with the felicity of the I AM:
I AM the Bread of Life
I AM the true Vine
Where is Mishpat (True Justice) in these two?
As I remarked over at Ruth’s blog, to argue thus, Carey is either a liar or a fool. I was inclined to be charitable and assume him a fool.
Then Richard Ashby kindly drew my attention to the sentence “I am bound to consider the rights of religious minorities.”
IIRC, wasn’t Carey of Clifton one of the lordly fops who voted to constrain the religious freedom of Quakers, Unitarians and Liberal Jews?
I guess he’s not a fool, then, and the alternative is the case.
Howe’er it is, George Carey is a disgrace to the Church and to the Gospel.
If you’re interested I’ve offered a detailed engagement with Carey’s witness statement
http://clayboy.co.uk/2010/04/one-law-for-us-one-for-you-the-carey-a-sharia-revisited/
Paranoia anyone?
And who is this kicking Rowan Williams when he was down over the Sharia Law fiasco? He writes: “a legal marketplace in which people opt in and out based on religious affiliation opens the door to a parallel system of justice” The former archbishop says that accommodating sharia law would lead to further demands. “This is absolutely inevitable, since questions to do with the separation of ‘church and state’ are largely new to Islam. Sharia law trumps civil law every time.” He adds: “Many Muslim interpreters of sharia believe that it supersedes secular law and assume that its ‘God-given’ status… Read more »
Simon, I think there’s a typo in the title.
Shouldn’t that be “witless statement?”
Now, it appears that George Carey is a silly little man who has lost his power. He no longer has his throne as “king” of Canterbury. I saw him at his lowest ebb when he visited America two years ago. He fit right in with the right wing Southern Fundamentalists and they just loved him. It is time for him to leave the stage. Perhaps we should use one of those old vaudeville hooks to pull him into the wings so that he may exit Stage Right with all of the other wing-nuts. He is an embarrassment. He is also… Read more »
I’m surprised there’s been so little comment on the warning about “civil unrest!”
Is Carey threatening riots? He’s been around Akinola too long!
Carey is using the “bully’s veto” or “heckler’s veto”: Either I get my way or we’ll riot. Either you stop this liberal from speaking or we’ll shout her down. Either you stop that Jew from being an MP or we’ll disrupt Parliament. It is especially distasteful that he should invoke his former office to use the bully’s veto. This is somewhat far-fetched — I hope — but if a gay counselor refused to advise a Roman Catholic or conservative CofE couple, because the the churches these couples are members of persecute gay people, Lord Carey would be apoplectic, and demand… Read more »
I do not agree with Carey’s implication that to be a sincere Christian one has to adhere to certain views on sexuality. On the other hand I am finding some views in the media about Christians ‘bleating’ about persecution misplaced. For me, the key in this witness statement is: “18. I am concerned that judges are unaware of these basic issues on the Christian faith; further it is difficult to see how it is appropriate for other religions to be considered by the Judiciary where the practices are further removed from our traditions.” There are at least two causes of… Read more »
“Certainly I do feel that Christian culture is being undermined, quite systematically. This has often little to do though with the cases that Carey cites as evidence. The alternative of course is to be strong in one’s confidence in God.” – Achilles – I do hope, Achilles, that you will not think me a bit of a ‘Heel’ in taking issue here with your supposition that former Abp. Carey is right about his blaming the British government for side-lining the Christian faith. If Christianity is being undermined, conservatives like Lord Carey and +Winchester & Co., are themselves part of the… Read more »
Am I ignorant, or isnt there a passage in the New Testament that tells us to make peace with our adversary, and not as Christians take them to the civil court. Leave alone threaten civil unrest.
Fundamentalists of whatever faith are the enemy of civil society, and its cohesion.
Fr John (Scotland)
“‘sincere Christians’. Would someone kindly unpack that adjective for me??”
That’s easy – it means those who agree with Lord Carey.
Father Ron Smith – I didn’t think I would take issue with you but… “Their insistence that…Christianity should have ‘most favoured nation’ status in an eclectic population of mostly British Commonwealth citizens is divisive, rather than a nation-building ploy.” First of all, I don’t know whether that *is* exactly what George Carey is doing but let’s take it at face value. Therefore, secondly, we are not ‘mostly British Commonwealth citizens’. I think I know what you mean but this is very loose, and it betrays I feel the unarticulated but profound inclination to deracination that self-identified liberals generally deploy –… Read more »
Achilles, I’m afraid I don’t quite ‘get your argument here. I mentioned the category of British Commonwealth Citizens as descriptive of the prevailing majority – bearing in mind that Brits are a constitutive part of that ethnic mix – as are many of the immigrants. Because Britain has become part of the European Union, this did not automatically rob the U.K. of its membership of the British Commonwealth – whatever name you choose for its present status. The Queen, after all, is still the Queen – and Head of The Commonwealth, of which the U.K. is still a part. Regarding… Read more »
FRS
http://www.brin.ac.uk/figures/Census2001Maps.shtml
Do you want to step up to the plate and deny that Christianity in the UK, which happens to be a political entity in its own right, is the “majority faith and preponderant cultural matrix here?”
Thanks for the blessings but could you please actually respond?
“Do you want to step up to the plate and deny that Christianity in the UK, which happens to be a political entity in its own right, is the “majority faith and preponderant cultural matrix here?” – Achilles – A: It really depends on what you mean by ‘faith’ when you speak of the UK as being predominantly ‘Christian’ and the dominant culture. If you are speaking nominally, you may indeed be right. However, if by ‘faith’ you actually mean church-attending ‘faithful’ you may not be quite in line with the statistics.This is not a criticism about religious observance in… Read more »