The Pope addresses Rowan Williams as The Archbishop of Canterbury. Isn’t this a sin? Isn’t this willfully misleading people into believing that the A of C is a legitimate bishop with all the powers of a bishop, i. e. conferring orders, forgiving sin, etc.? If the Pope considers him a fellow bishop, why am I in mortal sin for thinking the same thing?
Richard Ashby
13 years ago
Nice to see the ABC wearing his mitre. And the use of incense during the Magnificat. Interesting implications.
JCF
13 years ago
[@Ashpenaz: watching the event on EWTN (“Global Catholic {i.e., Popoid} Network”) I noticed that the announcers first called him just “Rowan Williams”. Only AFTER the Pope called him “Archbishop”, did the announcer relent and call him “Archbishop Williams”, too! ;-/] I think Rowan Williams has been a horrible ABC—complicit in much evil—and wish he would resign, ASAP. That said, I thought his evensong comments this evening were very commendable (in an ecumenical context). I couldn’t help but feel, however, that his remarks were rather elegaic: the ecumenical convergence that COULD have been (had JP2 really acted on/in the spirit of… Read more »
Damien McGrath
13 years ago
You use the word ‘willfully’, suggesting that the Pope has some sort of agenda rather than rejoicing in the fact that he acknowledges Rowan Williams as a fellow Bishop in the church of Christ. Today, i saw unity and was glad in it.
Father Ron Smith
13 years ago
Ashpenaz. You will note that the Pope does not address Archbishop Rowan as the ‘Catholic’ Archbishop of Canterbury. Perhaps this is his own subtle way of differentiating between what Rome considers authentic, as opposed to the rest of us. Remember, the Pope is a guest here and certain protocols are ‘de rigeur’. Titles are just titles. In the same way, Rowan might address Benedict as ‘Your Holiness’, with a similar regard for ecclesiastical protocol – whereas Jesus once asked a bystander “Who are you calling ‘Good’? One alone is Good” – indicating an attribute of his Father, God. It is… Read more »
Well, Ashpenaz, The Archperson of Canterbury just doesn’t have the same pizazz to it.
Ashpenaz
13 years ago
I think an Anglican could call the Pope “Your Holiness.” ARCIC doesn’t reject the Pope or the Papacy. We just don’t agree with claims of infallibility or universal jurisdiction. The Pope is the Bishop of Rome and the Vicar of Peter and plays the same role of being a symbol of unity for the Church as Peter did for the Apostles. But Peter didn’t have any powers the other apostles didn’t have, and Peter didn’t have any immediate jurisdiction over any other apostle. Nor was Peter personally infallible. If the Pope stands next to the Archbishop of Canterbury and they… Read more »
Robert Ian Williams
13 years ago
Being pleasant to a person, doesn’t necessarily mean you believe they are who they claim. As St Paul said, I became a Jew to the Jews,and a Greek to the Greeks. That is why he shook Canon hedges hand and by the way the Pope’s have met female clergy before. The Pope recognises Rowan as the leader of a substantial Protestant federation of churches.That is why at Lambeth he greeted his” brother Catholic bishops” and the Anglican bishops. If he met an American Methodist bishop he would greet him as such.He would greet the leader of the Salvation Army as… Read more »
Father Ron Smith
13 years ago
Having viewed some of the coverage on the papal web-site, I noticed the particular caring way in which ‘Gorgeous George’ looked after the papal dignity. It was nice, too. to see he wears a purple cincture; it goes well with the boss’s immaculata white outfit. Now, seriously; Pope Benedict did express a proper fatherly love for the children presented to him. I always think that’s the measure of a truly human being – which, of course, he is. Solemn Evensong in Westminster Abbey was really something to behold. It was good to see the joint ceremony of putting incense onto… Read more »
Balaam's Ass
13 years ago
Ashpenaz, aren’t you being a little free with the idea of mortal sin? In order for a sin to be mortal, it must meet three conditions: Mortal sin is a sin of grave matter Mortal sin is committed with full knowledge of the sinner Mortal sin is committed with deliberate consent of the sinner This means that mortal sins cannot be done “accidentally.” A person who commits a mortal sin is one who knows that their sin is wrong, but still deliberately commits the sin anyway. This means that mortal sins are “premeditated” by the sinner and thus are truly… Read more »
Ashpenaz, in diplomacy (which is what this is) people often say things they don’t really mean, and everyone knows this and is just happy people are speaking to each other. There is enough “on the books” to serve as a corrective to anyone mistaking this act of courtesy for a formal recognition.
bobinswpa
13 years ago
Saved??
Robert Ian Williams
13 years ago
Of course the measure of full knowledge is also linked to culpable ignorance.
evensongjunkie
13 years ago
RIW: I’ve got to give credit where credit is due. I agree completely w/ what you’ve said in re the natural behavior in the way greetings where conducted at Westminster (Abbey). Now if we could just transpose this behavior to Lambeth and the Vatican.
And yes, a little incense is nice at Evensong…so long’s at up there at the altar and away from us doing the work in the stalls….
Ceremoniar
13 years ago
I agree with those who advise not to read too much into the diplomatic acts. Pope Benedict also greeted the female canon of the Abbey, vested in her cope; one can be sure that the Holy Father recognizes her as neither canon nor priest.
Rev. Dr. Richard Gilbert
12 years ago
The service for the papal visit to Westminster Abbey was not only stunning for its history, but the music was some of the best I have heard. I tried desperately to find a copy of the service, but the BBC copies were not available in the US. Can you help?
The Pope addresses Rowan Williams as The Archbishop of Canterbury. Isn’t this a sin? Isn’t this willfully misleading people into believing that the A of C is a legitimate bishop with all the powers of a bishop, i. e. conferring orders, forgiving sin, etc.? If the Pope considers him a fellow bishop, why am I in mortal sin for thinking the same thing?
Nice to see the ABC wearing his mitre. And the use of incense during the Magnificat. Interesting implications.
[@Ashpenaz: watching the event on EWTN (“Global Catholic {i.e., Popoid} Network”) I noticed that the announcers first called him just “Rowan Williams”. Only AFTER the Pope called him “Archbishop”, did the announcer relent and call him “Archbishop Williams”, too! ;-/] I think Rowan Williams has been a horrible ABC—complicit in much evil—and wish he would resign, ASAP. That said, I thought his evensong comments this evening were very commendable (in an ecumenical context). I couldn’t help but feel, however, that his remarks were rather elegaic: the ecumenical convergence that COULD have been (had JP2 really acted on/in the spirit of… Read more »
You use the word ‘willfully’, suggesting that the Pope has some sort of agenda rather than rejoicing in the fact that he acknowledges Rowan Williams as a fellow Bishop in the church of Christ. Today, i saw unity and was glad in it.
Ashpenaz. You will note that the Pope does not address Archbishop Rowan as the ‘Catholic’ Archbishop of Canterbury. Perhaps this is his own subtle way of differentiating between what Rome considers authentic, as opposed to the rest of us. Remember, the Pope is a guest here and certain protocols are ‘de rigeur’. Titles are just titles. In the same way, Rowan might address Benedict as ‘Your Holiness’, with a similar regard for ecclesiastical protocol – whereas Jesus once asked a bystander “Who are you calling ‘Good’? One alone is Good” – indicating an attribute of his Father, God. It is… Read more »
Well, Ashpenaz, The Archperson of Canterbury just doesn’t have the same pizazz to it.
I think an Anglican could call the Pope “Your Holiness.” ARCIC doesn’t reject the Pope or the Papacy. We just don’t agree with claims of infallibility or universal jurisdiction. The Pope is the Bishop of Rome and the Vicar of Peter and plays the same role of being a symbol of unity for the Church as Peter did for the Apostles. But Peter didn’t have any powers the other apostles didn’t have, and Peter didn’t have any immediate jurisdiction over any other apostle. Nor was Peter personally infallible. If the Pope stands next to the Archbishop of Canterbury and they… Read more »
Being pleasant to a person, doesn’t necessarily mean you believe they are who they claim. As St Paul said, I became a Jew to the Jews,and a Greek to the Greeks. That is why he shook Canon hedges hand and by the way the Pope’s have met female clergy before. The Pope recognises Rowan as the leader of a substantial Protestant federation of churches.That is why at Lambeth he greeted his” brother Catholic bishops” and the Anglican bishops. If he met an American Methodist bishop he would greet him as such.He would greet the leader of the Salvation Army as… Read more »
Having viewed some of the coverage on the papal web-site, I noticed the particular caring way in which ‘Gorgeous George’ looked after the papal dignity. It was nice, too. to see he wears a purple cincture; it goes well with the boss’s immaculata white outfit. Now, seriously; Pope Benedict did express a proper fatherly love for the children presented to him. I always think that’s the measure of a truly human being – which, of course, he is. Solemn Evensong in Westminster Abbey was really something to behold. It was good to see the joint ceremony of putting incense onto… Read more »
Ashpenaz, aren’t you being a little free with the idea of mortal sin? In order for a sin to be mortal, it must meet three conditions: Mortal sin is a sin of grave matter Mortal sin is committed with full knowledge of the sinner Mortal sin is committed with deliberate consent of the sinner This means that mortal sins cannot be done “accidentally.” A person who commits a mortal sin is one who knows that their sin is wrong, but still deliberately commits the sin anyway. This means that mortal sins are “premeditated” by the sinner and thus are truly… Read more »
Ashpenaz, in diplomacy (which is what this is) people often say things they don’t really mean, and everyone knows this and is just happy people are speaking to each other. There is enough “on the books” to serve as a corrective to anyone mistaking this act of courtesy for a formal recognition.
Saved??
Of course the measure of full knowledge is also linked to culpable ignorance.
RIW: I’ve got to give credit where credit is due. I agree completely w/ what you’ve said in re the natural behavior in the way greetings where conducted at Westminster (Abbey). Now if we could just transpose this behavior to Lambeth and the Vatican.
And yes, a little incense is nice at Evensong…so long’s at up there at the altar and away from us doing the work in the stalls….
I agree with those who advise not to read too much into the diplomatic acts. Pope Benedict also greeted the female canon of the Abbey, vested in her cope; one can be sure that the Holy Father recognizes her as neither canon nor priest.
The service for the papal visit to Westminster Abbey was not only stunning for its history, but the music was some of the best I have heard. I tried desperately to find a copy of the service, but the BBC copies were not available in the US. Can you help?
Dr Richard B. Gilbert