Thinking Anglicans

codes, societies, ordinariates

An announcement was made a few days ago of the names of those who are to serve on the group charged with drafting the new Code of Practice to accompany the legislation on Women in the Episcopate.

The Church Times reports today: Traditionalists unhappy with new working group

THE Catholic Group in the General Synod was described on Wednesday morning as “incandescent” about Tuesday’s announcement of the membership of the group that will prepare the draft code of practice to accompany the women-bishops Measure…

… Prebendary David Houlding, a leading member of the Catholic Group, said on Wednesday: “We are all so angry and dismayed. It’s clear from the compilation of this group that there is to be no honoured place in the Church of England for traditionalists — that we are not wanted. This group is set up to fail before it begins. It’s one [Bishop Martin Warner] against seven.

This is slightly odd, as the list also includes The Reverend Angus MacLeay, Vicar of St Nicholas Sevenoaks, who is certainly opposed to women bishops, though for rather different reasons.

There is a second report in the Church Times available at the same URL, but SCROLL DOWN for Flying bishops deny quick move to Rome, which updates the web-only story of last Friday:

…A report published in the parish magazine of All Saints’, Clifton, of a meeting of the Ebbsfleet Lay Con­gress, which took place in Somerset on 25 September, described Bishop Newton as saying that he “hopes to join the Ordinariate”, as “I no longer believe it is possible to be a Catholic in the Church of England.” He was reported as saying that he “expects . . . that the Ordinariate could start in January 2011”.

The report also said that Bishop Burnham favoured joining the Or­dinariate, and was not optimistic about the new Society of St Wilfrid and St Hilda for Catholic clergy and laity (News, 1 October).

Earlier this year, Bishop Burnham and Bishop Newton, with the Bishop of Fulham, the Rt Revd John Broad­hurst, travelled to Rome to meet members of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith (News, 7 May).

Bishops Burnham and Newton said in a statement to The Catholic Herald last week that the offer of the Ordinariate was not dependent on any action by the C of E’s General Synod. “The initiative should be judged on its own merit. It will require courage and vision on the part of those who accept the invitation, particularly among the first to respond.”

Meanwhile, Damian Thompson in the Telegraph continues to worry about SSWSH, see The mystery of SS Hinge & Bracket: is it something to do with married bishops?

And so the SS Hinge & Bracket sails on, stately as a galleon, captained by the “catholic” bishops of the Church of England, though it’s not clear who else is on board…

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Bill Dilworth
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So the same people that rejected a code of practice with “A code of practice will not do!” are now complaining that they weren’t included in the process…

Father Ron Smith
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Father Ron Smith

“This is a remarkable new step from the Vatican”, he (Bishop Hind) said. “At long last there are some choices for Catholics in the Church of England. I’D BE HAPPY TO BE ORDAINED into the Catholic Church” !!! – Damian Thompson in The Guardian – If this is a true record (by Master Damian) of the words spoken by Bishop John Hind, one wonders what this English Diocesan Bishop is waiting for. He has already said that he wouldn’t mind giving up his stipend, palace and emoluments from the C.of E., but one wonders whether this is still true –… Read more »

David Malloch
Guest
David Malloch

Fr Houlding and the Catholic Group in General Synod have consistently (until now??)argued that a Code of Practice cannot meet their needs. So, why are they now so angry not to be involved in writing one????

Ed Tomlinson
Guest

Some of you are heartless. Surely Houlding is dismayed because even the provision now being offered, which will not do in reality, is going to have to do for those poor souls who are unable to enter the Ordinariate at this moment of time.

It is salt in the wounds and shows so little love it is beyond belief.

Though intellectually you are of course right and I certainly do not know anyone looking to it with any hope.

Jeremy Pemberton
Guest
Jeremy Pemberton

Ed – AFAIK no one can enter the Ordinariate “at this moment of time” – as it hasn’t started yet. So that is neither here nor there. The point is that when the Code of Practice is needed the Ordinariate will be up and running. So are you trying to say that there will be “poor souls” who will be “unable” to join it at that stage? If that is what you mean then I want to understand in what sense they would be unable. If you mean they don’t want to, and they are the same people who tell… Read more »

MarkBrunson
Guest

“Some of you are heartless.”

Yeah. Can’t *imagine* what that feels like.

Here’s a tissue.

Bill Dilworth
Guest

I don’t think I’m heartless, Fr. Tomlinson. I do think, however, that the Catholic Movement is finding out the hard way that rejectionism and ultimatums give you fewer options than compromise and cooperation.

Andrew Brown
Guest
Andrew Brown

I would be a little surprised if Damian actually wrote those words in the Guardian.

Wilf
Guest
Wilf

Two out of eight against women bishops is 25%. This is very generous representation, I would have thought, in terms of the numbers in the Church of England in the conservative catholic and conservative evangelical constituencies. And Preb Houlding is chairman of the Church of England Appointments Committee and knows all about balancing groups representatively.

Simon Sarmiento
Guest

Damian wrote his words in the Telegraph. I have now added that attribution to the original article. Fr Smith was mistaken. But while I am at it, let me also draw attention to the point Damian originally made:

“Let me draw your attention to a line from Jonathan’s report: the bishop stressed that this would depend on his previous ministry being recognised.”

Laurence Roberts
Guest
Laurence Roberts

I’D BE HAPPY TO BE ORDAINED into the Catholic Church” !!! – Damian Thompson in The Guardian – John Hind — surely YOU of all people should know you have been ‘ordained in the Catholic Church.’ Why not just enjoy it — and let the rest of us do likewise ? ! I doubt changing to another denomantion -even the RC one — will make you feel any better. Btw Marilynne Robinson has some wonderful things to say of Bonhoeffer’s vision of church and gospel in her new book of essays called The Death of Adam. Balm there for a… Read more »

Father Ron Smith
Guest
Father Ron Smith

Sorry, Simon! I must have mistaken the Telegraph for the Guardian! Quite a sin in itself. However,
the imputed words – ventriloquised by Damian from Jonathan Wynne-Jones – were seemingly uttered by none other than Bishop John Hind some time ago. Perhaps they have been eaten by him since then.

The fact remains; what is a would-be ‘recusant’ (Roman Catholic wannabe) doing, still serving as a diocesan Bishop in the Church of England?

Neil
Guest
Neil

‘the Catholic Movement is finding out the hard way that rejectionism and ultimatums give you fewer options than compromise and cooperation.’ Judging by the standards of the world, it is hardly surprising (to me if not to some other Anglican Catholics) that the victors in the fight to ordain women intend to thoroughly vanquish and humiliate their ‘foes’. That is normal in war. No surprise then that the losers…a number of Catholics will soon be departing. The problem is that those who have compromised and cooperated will see no benefit for their Christ-like dealing with the situation. And the tone… Read more »

Robert Ian Williams
Guest
Robert Ian Williams

Could you imagine the Catholic Church tolerating for one minute, a Catholic bishop who was publicly threatening that he was thinking of becoming an Anglican. He would be suspended immediately.

Jeremy Pemberton
Guest
Jeremy Pemberton

Neil – I think this is an unhelpful tack to take. Those who support women’s ordination to the episcopate and a code of practise are not gloating or rejoicing in the “defeat” of those who want to stop what is, to us, an entirely natural development that flows from our church’s decision to ordain women priests. The very process which has resulted in the provision of a code of practise shows that a good deal of trouble is being gone to to accommodate as far as is possible the consciences of those who want to stay members of the Church… Read more »

Neil
Guest
Neil

Thank you Jeremy. The point remains though that compromise and cooperation on the part of many – focussing on what unites rather than what divides has not delivered the goods. And I do not think it will. And if a Code of Practise will not work, then increasing lawlessness is likely. The Anglican Covenant is a ‘Code of Practise’ too, and similarly will be disregarded (as it should be). So that if a CofE parish wishes to invite Gene Robinson to celebrate, I rather think they will…and if a parish wishes to invite a bishop without the permission of the… Read more »

Bill Dilworth
Guest

“Which might suggest (contra Mr Dillworth) that a more aggressive response might be necessary from Catholics…”

What on earth could me more aggressive than threatening to leave the CofE?

John
Guest
John

Interesting sentiments, Neil, especially the last two sentences. I agree with you.

Neil
Guest
Neil

Bill D – Staying!

Neil
Guest
Neil

It is not those who have compromised and cooperated who are the ones who are likely to leave. These are not people who have threatened to leave…but it might be the only future option for even those good people who have quietly served the Lord in their various parishes etc. It might not…we shall see. This, I think, is possibly why the Archbishops intervened – because for all the shrill and silly right wing Ultramontane Catholics, there are dozens who have not and do not wish to bang on about this issue. And who hope they will not be forced… Read more »

Laurence Roberts
Guest
Laurence Roberts

What on earth could me more aggressive than threatening to leave the CofE? Posted by: Bill Dilworth on Sunday, 10th Oct. The only thing more aggressive than that threat–is failing to carry it out – but causing heart-searching and heart-ache for year; while pretending to be interested in compromise, and to respect the views of those who want women’s ministries to be established among us. I think those who stayed when women were priested, tacitly accepted the ministry of women,in the C of E., and can’t really complain too much now. Btw over the decades when women’s ordained ministrries were… Read more »

Clive
Guest
Clive

Jeremy, Ed and Neil are all right. Bottom line is that there will be no compromise on the authority of a female diocesan and traditionalists of either evangelical or catholic stripe will either have to accept it or leave. It’s not a question of being unable to leave for anyone, but the process is easier for some than others. SS. Hinge and Bracket is but window dressing for the path to Aff Caff.

Bottom line for Anglo-catholics really is Rome Is the Answer. God speed the Ordinariate, and all the solo swimmers past, present and future.

Bill Dilworth
Guest

Are the only choices being discussed among opponents of WO really the Ordinariate or some sort of shelter within the CofE? Is there no interest in either the Orthodox or some sort of “Continuing” Anglican presence?

Neil
Guest
Neil

What a SILLY thing for Laurence Roberts to say. There are countless examples of priests who do not believe that it is possible for women to be priests to have supported members of their congregations who think they have a vocation. Even people like ht Bishop of Chichester. I assume (in his ignorance) that LR must hail from TEC.

Father David
Guest
Father David

Interesting to read that Neil sees the conflict between those who are pro and anti women bishops in terms of a “war” and that the “victors in the fight” intend to “thoroughly vanquish and humiliate their foes”. Such bellicose language makes me want to remember the Synod of Whitby in 664 when the Romans triumphed over the Celts. Thereafter St. Colman went with his Celtic monks into self-imposed exile on Inishbofin in county Galway off the west coast of Ireland – far, far away. This time let us hope for the ultimate triumph of Christian charity as the true victor.

john
Guest
john

‘This, I think, is possibly why the Archbishops intervened – because for all the shrill and silly right wing Ultramontane Catholics, there are dozens who have not and do not wish to bang on about this issue. And who hope they will not be forced into getting into yet more fruitless argument with some equally shrill voices seen on this blog.’ Might demur about the last sentence from ‘with’ on. Still, this is the kind of talk which speaks to many Anglicans and which represents (I believe) the majority voice within the C of E. Please can we hear it… Read more »

Laurence Roberts
Guest
Laurence Roberts

‘Rome Is the Answer.’ oh I have forgotten – What was the Question ? All this melo-dramatic stuff and tone is very counter-productive for me — you have already called wolf too often ~! Rome answers nothing. And those against the ordination of women have never joined the RC denomination and probably won’t now. And in the Vatican’s own terms being against WO is not sufficient reason to enrol there. As I understand it the sole ground for joining the RCC is being convinced of the papacy and so-called ‘petrine claims’etc. In other words :– The RCC alone is church.… Read more »

drdanfee
Guest
drdanfee

Hmmm … a triumvirate of cooties, triumphantly avoided? women cooties, gay cooties, married cooties …plenitudinous?… only males who are not sexually active in any sense to any degree whatseover can proclaim their loud claim to having so blessedly avoided all three categories of having been (otherwise, oh so forlornly, against all better rational judgment) cootified …

Alas, this is the sort of thing that medieval biopsychosocial embodiment demands, and ever will demand? … until the earth stops being flat?

Father Ron Smith
Guest
Father Ron Smith

“Bottom line for Anglo-catholics really is Rome Is the Answer. God speed the Ordinariate, and all the solo swimmers past, present and future.” – Posted by: Clive on Sunday – NO! Not the bottom line for loyal Anglo-Catholics who believe that the Church of England is – even with present issues – the legitimate successor, in England, of the Reformed, Catholic & Apostolic Church of England, from the Reformation onwards! To presume to lump all ‘Anglo-Catholics’ with those longing for a submission to the Magisterium of Roman Catholicism, is simply a mistaken idea of what the universality of Christ’s Church… Read more »

Clive
Guest
Clive

Laurence, Clearly, coming from a Protestant perspective you wouldn’t see Rome as the answer. I respect that. For me, given that you can’t be an Anglo-catholic in Canada any more, it has been the answer for ten years and I am thrilled with the Ordinariate proposal that will make it easier for old friends, and old parish haunts in England to join me. It’s untrue to say that people didn’t go to Rome – not that numbers games are worth playing, but many did and many continue to do so, quietly and without fanfare. Yes, grace is found outside the… Read more »

Jeremy Pemberton
Guest
Jeremy Pemberton

No, Neil, wrong assumption, Laurence R is from WALES!!!

Erika Baker
Guest
Erika Baker

Clive “For me, sacramental assurance requires that Rome be the answer. No matter how much the ‘Fathers’ on this forum or others dress up and wave incense, they’re playing at being Catholics” Please explain this to me. As far as I understand, Anglo-Catholics have no problems with current Anglican orders, and the validity of those orders depends on Apostolic succession not on what individual priests may or may not believe about a certain issue (Donatism). The only thing that compromises the idea of sacramental assurance for you is the ordination of women bishops and the belief that the male priests… Read more »

john
Guest
john

‘For myself, I have never been less convinced of it. Nor am I, any longer prepared to go along the ARCIC rosy path. The RC denomination has not acted in good faith towards the work and people of ARCIC. I do not deny RC parishes, congregations of religious, projects and places of worship that offer something authentic along with other churches and groups. And individual acts of kindness, as when at my late cousin’s funeral mass, the young priest asked me to come and concelebrate with him. In my own experience the Brethren, the Baptists, the Quakers and Salvation Army… Read more »

Perry Butler
Guest
Perry Butler

Dear Bill ( Dilworth), I dont think a contiuing Anglican presence would work in England..or rather such a move would simply create a handful of small conventicles. Orthodoxy has always had a trickle of converts but it remains a mainly ethnic Church ( or rather Churches).The real problem is that the clergy are more concerned with womens ordination than the laity.Most laity who are opposed simply find another C of E church rather than convert. The Ordinariate ( when it happens ) will probably be top heavy with bishops and clergy ( mostly retired or nearing pensionable age).I simply cant… Read more »

Clive
Guest
Clive

Erika, I didn’t mean to express contempt; I respect everyone’s points of view and the sincerity with which they live them out – I was merely expressing my personal view and referring to those provinces where women bishops have been established for a long time and no provision was ever made for those opposed. I personally would not in conscience now be able to recognize those ordained in the Anglican Church of Canada as anything other than Protestant ministers – no different from Methodists – none the less worthy as individuals for that, but different from priests. I’m not a… Read more »

Robert Ian Williams
Guest
Robert Ian Williams

Perry I think you are spot on in your predictions of the ordinariate. As for the ARCIC process..a total exercise in self deception. I look forward to see it thrown in the dustbin. Roll on women bishops ..in the Church of England mind you.

Laurence Roberts
Guest
Laurence Roberts

Clive I am challenging what seems to me to be a narrow conception of the ‘Catholic Church’! You seem to be identifying the Catholic Church with the RC denomination. But if I say the Creeds,I am not affirming belief in that. And is n’t this how C of E people see this part of the creeds ? ‘Protestant through and through’ am I ? I’ve been called many things in my time.But never that, until, now, let alone ‘Unitarian’! I wonder what definition of Unitarian you have ? You seem surprised to have protestants in the Church of England !… Read more »

Erika Baker
Guest
Erika Baker

Clive
“I’m with Jeremy, join or do not join, there is no unable to join.”

Ah, but on an FiF blog people seemed to say that among those who couldn’t simply join were gay partnered priests, divorced priests, former Catholics who had alread once moved to Anglicanism, married Bishops….. the list of the impure seems to be quite extensive.

Laurence Roberts
Guest
Laurence Roberts

‘no provision was ever made for those opposed’ How could there have been ? Hard to see what form it could take. Btw ‘no provision was ever made’ for those women who felt called to ordained ministry in the last century and before. They lost the vote and that was that. And before that there wasn’t even voting. I don’t think those against WO ever consider that. I have mentioned it bfore and it is never taken up– I guess it is plain undeniable. No provision was made for women led to ordained ministry -or for those of us who… Read more »

Laurence Roberts
Guest
Laurence Roberts

‘no different from Methodists – none the less worthy as ‘

Some Methodists believe in eucharistic sacrifice and presence, and the hymns of the Wesleys express such convictions warmed in the fire of fervent devotion.

A Methodist minister wrote a book on the rosary. Others are in the Ecumenical Society of the BVM.

Laurence Roberts
Guest
Laurence Roberts

‘Ah, but on an FiF blog people seemed to say that among those who couldn’t simply join were gay partnered priests, divorced priests, former Catholics who had alread once moved to Anglicanism, married Bishops….. the list of the impure seems to be quite extensive.’ Posted by: Erika Baker on Tuesday, 12 October Good point Erica. And these folk sound ideal candidates for Anglo-Catholicism. Ah, they already are ! Well I hope they can realise when they are in good place for them. A right place. Could it be that the Lord has led them to the ideal Church (for them)… Read more »

Clive
Guest
Clive

Erika: There are difficulties for some, certainly. All those situations could be corrected by choices – indeed, married bishops are on their way into Ordinariates as we speak, in Canada, Australia, et al. They just won’t be bishops any longer. Divorces will be looked at case by case, etc. These are still choices – difficult ones for those individuals, sure, but still choices. Former Catholics are unlikely to want to come back anyway, as most move to Anglicanism precisely because of its liberal stance. Ditto gay partnered priests; there might be a few misogynist gay priests who will finally have… Read more »

Laurence Roberts
Guest
Laurence Roberts

‘To Laurence’s point about no provision being made for women who felt called to ministry – is this ending of the Act of Synod revenge then?’ No Clive, those women were in fact a pretty gracious, long-suffering bunch.I never heard them seeking revenge. Many like Phoebe Willetts have long since died. I wasnt scoring a cheap point either. It would really be worth meditation on long and hard- a penance maybe — not revenge ! You also say: ‘..you can’t provide for the impossible – ‘ And I think you have hit the nail on the head ! It is… Read more »

Jerry Hannon
Guest
Jerry Hannon

“Former Catholics are unlikely to want to come back anyway, as most move to Anglicanism precisely because of its liberal stance.” – Clive Hogwash and nonsense, Clive. Most of the former RC’s whom I have encountered seem to have moved for very positive reasons. Like many of them, I had very different beliefs about some RC-centric peculiarities, but spent years — like a number of my professors at an RC university — ignoring the absurdities of Rome, and going on as a member of “the Church.” But I discovered, somewhat accidentally by attending Wednesday noontime Eucharists at St. Thomas Church… Read more »

Erika Baker
Guest
Erika Baker

Clive
“gay partnered priests; there might be a few misogynist gay priests who will finally have to deal with the hypocrisy of their situation one way or another, but I don’t think that’s unreasonable.”

If a straight priest can believe in the Roman Catholic position on women priests, why is the same belief in a gay partnered priest hypocrisy?

Clive
Guest
Clive

Erika: Perhaps hypocrisy is not the correct word. What I mean is, they have to choose between staying in a church that turns a blind eye to their situation – and in the process accept women bishops – or follow their conscience on women bishops and give up their lifestyle should they wish to seek ordination in the Roman church. You can’t keep just the bits of the liberal agenda you like and throw the rest out. And yes, I know there are gay Roman priests too – but that doesn’t make it right, and they weren’t ordained while living… Read more »

Laurence Roberts
Guest
Laurence Roberts

I was glad to read Jerry Hannon’s account of his spiritual and faith journey. Does the heart good.

And it prompts me to wonder if he was also confirmed in Liverpool by its bishop. That would really cap it ! (I was confirmed by Stuart Blanche another great Evangelical bishop of Liverpool).

(In fact, I invited him as a sixth-former to come to our CU., and talk on ‘Does a Bishop Believe in the Bible ?’ and he came on his bike !)

Btw the answer was a Yes !

Erika Baker
Guest
Erika Baker

Clive
so if I can take you back to your earlier statement that everyone CAN join the ordinariate but that some people choose not to, would you agree that this has to be qualified a little, and that people who are gay partnered and people who are divorced but do not wish for their marriages to be annulled retrospectively (always an awful thing for children!) do, indeed, not have the option to join after all?

Laurence Roberts
Guest
Laurence Roberts

oh sorry, I see, when having another read, that I got reception into Episcopal Church, confused with Confirmation. So not in Liverpool. Manhattan a great place for it though !
Liverpool … !

Clive
Guest
Clive

Erika: not to get bogged down in minutiae, but yes there are still choices. A divorced person can become a Catholic; the anullment is only needed if they wish to remarry in a Catholic church, and is straightforward, at least in Canada, assuming the marriage took place outside the RC church and is therefore not recognized sacramentally. At least this was the process for those in my RCIA group who fell into that situation. For priests obviously they would need to regularize marriage situations before they could be ordained as Catholic priests. Nonetheless, several bishops to whom this applies are… Read more »