Thinking Anglicans

friction over the Ordinariate

We reported earlier on the challenge being made in respect of the large financial grant from the Confraternity of the Blessed Sacrament to the Ordinariate.

There was a further story in the Church Times on Ordinariate finances: Ordinariate describes its £1-million donation as allowing breathing space.

The correspondence columns have had several letters about this, see last week and also two weeks earlier.

This week there is another story, about another society, see President of CU to quit over its exclusion of Ordinariate. And more letters, but these are behind the paywall until next week.

The Church Union website is over here.

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JCF
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JCF

[I said the following over at Episcopal Cafe, apropos the CU President’s resignation] As someone who began working within TEC ecumenically ~25 years ago, inc. for (in God’s Good Time!) union of the Church including the Church of Rome, it BOGGLES MY MIND that *anyone* could think that Anglicanorum Coetibus could FURTHER the ecumenical project, instead of (re the AC and Rome) damn near KILLING it. [Pardon the run-on sentence!] I’ve heard said of attempts to revive ARCIC (Anglican/Roman Catholic International Consultation), “What is there left to talk about?” It seems to me that to ask “Rome, why did you… Read more »

Perry Butler
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Perry Butler

it is difficult to see how the Ordinariate will achieve financial viability. What is the age profile of the laity? I suspect they think they are a “first wave” and many more will follow if/when women bishops appear…but I cant see it. The laity are very attached to buildings and it seems pretty certain church sharing isnt on the cards. What is happening outside England? Not much,I judge.

Richard Ashby
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Richard Ashby

Should one have some sympathy with Keith Newton and his ordinariands as they contemplate their financial difficulties? I have to admit that I find it very difficult indeed. Indeed the words ‘bed’ and ‘lying on it’ come to mind Surely they knew that there were going to be serious financial difficulties? They knew that Rome had no money to support them, there was going to be none from the Church of England. Those priests who were below pensionable age were always going to have to wait for the Church of England pensions to be paid. Was no assessment done, didn’t… Read more »

Father David
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Father David

Sounds a bit like Iraq – i.e. no follow up plan once the invasion has taken place!
As to the purloining of CBS funds – I’m sure that Benedict XVI would not have wished his precious Ordinariate to start off in such a tainted way.

rose
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rose

Richard, if you take a look at the comments being made on Facebook, you might join me in concluding that “gin, lace and backbiting” clearly remain the order of the day in Anglo Catholic circles – indeed it may be the essential feature keeping so many in the Church of England!

Lapinbizarre
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Lapinbizarre

Odd that Fr Barnes, though now an RC priest, signs his Church Union letter as a bishop?

A J Barford
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A J Barford

“Rather than trying by dubious means to get hold of the money given by CofE members for CofE purposes” – Richard Ashby

Isn’t this a case of the pot calling the kettle black? Our (formerly Roman Catholic) cathedrals charge Roman Catholic visitors entrance fees amounting to millions of pounds a year – for ‘CofE purposes’ – as William Oddie of the Catholic Herald points out:

http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/commentandblogs/2011/07/27/if-anybody-tries-to-make-you-pay-to-enter-an-anglican-cathedral-built-by-the-catholic-church-refuse-and-enter-anyway/

Chris Smith
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Chris Smith

The money should be returned. No matter how you try to paint it, it is THEFT. It is really not that different from the game being played all over the Anglican world by Right wingers. This money belongs to the Anglican CBS not the Roman Catholic Church or Anglican converts to Rome. The sooner this money is returned, the easier it will be for those who took it to decide what they plan to do with the rest of their lives as Christians. The entire movement has homophobia and misogyny as its’ foundation. No good can come from this movement.

Swish new Church
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Swish new Church

The Church Times this week published a fairly substantial correction to Fr Williamson’s letter which, for the sake of fairness ought to be reproduced with any reference to his letter! One begins to wonder if he has actually got anything right about the case. WITH reference to the Revd Paul Williamson’s letter last week, con­cerning payments by the Confra­ternity of the Blessed Sacrament (CBS) in connection with the Ordinariate, Mgr Andrew Burnham has asked us to point out that the sum he received was to fund a mission post. He writes: “The per­son was part-funded by the Church Commissioners (CC)… Read more »

Richard Ashby
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Richard Ashby

Mr Barford. William Oddie’s argument in his bitter article is quite spurious. There was no ‘Roman Catholic Church’ at the time of Henry VIII; there were those who went along with Henry’s reformation, the vast majority of whom remained in their traditional places of worship, and there was a remnant, who did not and so excluded themselves and suffered all the penalties which we know about up to and including matyrdom. I am not excusing this fact, but this is what happened. Therefore there can be no charges of ‘theft’ against the Church of England which, whether we like it… Read more »

A J Barford
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A J Barford

“I had to pay £9 at Canterbury the other week”

… a rather steep sum to pay if you are a homeless Spanish migrant worker picking apples in the Garden of England.

Christopher (P.)
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Christopher (P.)

Yes, someone noted elsewhere recently, and I can’t find it to give proper credit, that it is arguable that the “Roman Catholic Church” did not exist until 1870, when Vatican I affirmed the “ordinary, immediate, and universal jurisdiction” of the Bishop of Rome.

I have also heard it stated that any claims to Anglican real property were dropped as part of the re-establishment of the Roman hierarchy in England in 1850 — but I haven’t been able to confirm that, in a quick search.

robert ian williams
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robert ian williams

The controversial grant by the former Anglican charity, the Confraternity of the Blessed Sacrament (CBS) may be legal, but whether it is moral or not is another question? The fact that the majority of the trustees of the CBS are members of the Ordinariate and that prior to their conversion to Catholicism, they changed the Confraternity from being an exclusively Anglican body into an ecumenical organisation is highly questionable. The fact remains that under Catholic Canon law no priest can be a member of an Association which compromises their Catholic Faith. Canon law section 278 states: Clerics are to refrain… Read more »

Robert ian Williams
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Robert ian Williams

The Protestant Church of England was reconstituted in 1559 by acts of parliament.The buildings owned by the Catholic Church were taken over by the newly constituted denomination. The Catholic remnant went underground and in 1829, as a precursor to emancipation agreed not to make a claim on any of the ancient churches and cathedrals.

Philadelphian
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Philadelphian

So far we know that the Ordinariate has caused significant internal trouble for the CBS and the Church Union.

What of the Society of the Holy Cross, the Guild of All Souls, Walsingham, the Guild of the Servants of the Sanctuary, etc? Membership and leadership in these organisations are remarkably coterminous.

Grumpy High Church Woman
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Grumpy High Church Woman

Charging admission to churches is unfortunate. But note it happens on the continent as well. Does William Oddie’s argument extend outside of England? I just checked, St Peter’s charges 7 euros. Hmmm. Next time, I’ll just refuse to pay and walk in.

David Malloch
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David Malloch

“St Peter’s charges 7 euros”. St Peter’s where?? If this refers to the Vatican Basilica it is completely untrue. Admission is free!

David Malloch
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David Malloch

“The fact that the majority of the trustees of the CBS are members of the Ordinariate and that prior to their conversion to Catholicism, they changed the Confraternity from being an exclusively Anglican body into an ecumenical organisation is highly questionable.” This is simply incorrect. All constitutional changes are made by the Council General, not the trustees. Re the matter refered to, the changes were proposed and seconded by 2 members of the council, one a Bishop and the other a Parish Priest, both of whom remain members of the Church of England! The trustees changed nothing, they cannot do… Read more »

Richard Ashby
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Richard Ashby

Mr Barford:-
‘…a rather steep sum to pay if you are a homeless Spanish migrant worker picking apples in the Garden of England’.

But I think that you will find that should both Mr Oddie and your Spanish migrant worker wish they can attend any service and experience the best in Cathedral worship free of any charge.

Your Spaniard might well also find that the churches in this country are still mostly open and free of charge whereas in his they are often locked and only open for services.

Benedict
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Benedict

“What of the Society of the Holy Cross, the Guild of All Souls, Walsingham, the Guild of the Servants of the Sanctuary etc? membership and leadership in these organisations are remarkably coterminous” – Philadelphian Philadelphian, you have made a sweeping statement and crass generalisation about the organisations to which you allude. As far as I am aware, but correct me if I am wrong, Fathers Houlding and Dunkley of SSC, Bishop Lindsay Urwin and Father Stephen Gallagher at Walsingham, and the headship of the other organisations you make reference to, are all still very firmly within the Church of England… Read more »

Geoff
Guest

With respect to the Catholic Societies, for the most part there are not “parallel” affirming versions and membership is mixed. Anglo-Catholics of a “liberal” persuasion on gender end up in the SCP (the North American body has a spikier rep than the mother province) and Company of Servers rather than the SSC and GSS, and it doesn’t take second sight to predict the reaction of the Catholic League to the ordinariate, but there is only one CBS, SOM, GAS, OLW, and SKCM for Anglicans of whatever shade of opinion of matters of current contention.

Robert ian williams
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Robert ian williams

Don’t worry.. Rome are going to rule that membership of the CBS by a Catholic priest is unaceptable, as they did on the SHC.

david rowett
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We were at Walsingham for the Youth Pilgrimage last week. I think it’s no secret that the last 12 months at Walsingham have been remarkably difficult. It still poses me a problem as a member of SCP that my female SCP colleague cannot concelebrate there (so I won’t), but they were last week trying their damnedest to be as inclusive as they could. Credit where credit’s due to +Lindsey and Fr Stephen. Their room for manoeuvre is very limited.

Christopher
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Christopher

I take the point about ‘gin, lace and backbiting’, but I would be interested to know what part of the Anglican tradition members of the ordinariate think they are keeping. I assume it is not the Book of Common Prayer and the Authorised Version of the Bible. At one time members of the Church of England who wanted to assert their ‘Catholicity’ put these as far away as possible. I knew one church where, admittedly during an interregnum, the ‘Mass’ was simply an English translation of what was being said at the local Roman Catholic church. If this sort of… Read more »

Laurence Roberts
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Laurence Roberts

Robert this posting must be (one of) your best ever ! An absolute hoot !

Posted by: robert ian williams on Saturday, 6 August 2011 at 10:40pm

Worshipping bread eh ? Who would have thought it!

You have brought me a little cheer. Thanks ever so.

Robert ian Williams
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Robert ian Williams

Sad you find the spiritual realities of people’s souls so trivial and funny.

From a Catholic perspective Anglican orders are defective, so how can a Catholic priest be a member of a society promoting ” eucharistic adoration ” in the Church of England?

Martin Reynolds
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Martin Reynolds

Well, Laurence, that is what the Vatican and her adherents teach.

We are no priests, these are no valid sacraments… etc.

I think the particular obstacle raised by RIW may well have merit in Canon Law.

Laurence Roberts
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Laurence Roberts

Robert did I use the word ‘trivial’? Just hilarious (so hardly trivial 🙂 Your drama queen antics don’t take me in for one moment either 🙂 all that huffing and puffing ! Martin I am happy to be in some sense a minister of gospel- and hope I’ve done a bit of good here and there.As for ‘validity’ I have no such concept, and its hard to imagine how it could apply to a sacrament which is an action between people in relationship. Even if only a one-off. The relationship and feelings may be difficult or fraught – but that’s… Read more »

Father Ron Smith
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Father Ron Smith

Perhaps Mr. Barnes should have realised early on that a charity like the Confraternity of the Blessed Sacrament is specifically registered as an Anglican organisation not geared to the needs of a schismatic entity like the R.C. Ordinariate.

And as for Robert I Williams’ ungracious comment, it is perhaps time he recognised that his mentor, the Pope, ‘hath no jurisdiction in England’.

Rose
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Rose

Father Ron, I am confused by your comment. Could you state in what way CBS is “specifically registered as an Anglican organisation”? I am a member and do not understand what you mean? Registered with whom? Is it registered with the synod or the CofE or something? Or is it registered as part of the CofE with the charity commission? And does the law or the charity commission have a policy on perceived schism?? And if what you say is correct, how is it that CBS legal opinions from leading charity lawyers say something very different? I’m not wanting to… Read more »

Malcolm French+
Guest

I fail to understand what is hard to grasp here. The Confraternity of the Blessed Sacrament was established to promote the Catholic tradition within Anglicanism. The Ordinariate was established to decimate the Catholic tradition within Anglicanism and to promote a pallid museum piece Anglican ghetto Tradition in Rome.

Swish new Church
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Swish new Church

Rose, I’m sure that Fr Ron will answer for himself but my reading of the history of the Catholic movement in the CofE would be that the CBS was set up to be explicitly OUTSIDE of the established Church of England because, at the time of its foundation, Priests were being sent to prison for doing far less “Catholic” things than adoring the Blessed Sacrament.

Father Ron Smith
Guest

Rose, I am not a member of C.B.S., though I have hitherto been sympathetic towards their attitude towards the catholic claims of the Church of England. My understanding has always been that CBS was registered as a charity, sharing the aims and objectives of the historic Church of England, Grants from C.B.S. have been received by at least one New Zealand parish, providing vestments and eucharistic vessels for the celebration of the Holy Communion in accordance with CBS’s stated tradition, which has always been claimed to be in accordance with the rites and ceremonies of the historic Church of England.… Read more »

Robert ian Williams
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Robert ian Williams

I think my argument is still cogent. The Ordinariate trustees of CBS rejected their Anglican orders and accepted unconditional confirmation and ordination in the Catholic Church. They are now part of an organisation promoting “eucharistic” worship of bread in the Church of England. Its a violation of Catholic Canon law…278 section 3. Indeed in the past Rome forced Catholic priests who joined SSC , to leave. They can’t have their bun and keep their penny..oops million! So far I have had to complain about this, an abuse of using the KJV bible for oaths at an ordination and there are… Read more »

robert ian williams
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robert ian williams

There is a very telling advertisment in this weeks Church of England Newspaper…

It is an advert for a “conservative Evangelical parish” in Christchurch, NZ.

Underneath it says applications to Bishop Victoria Matthews.

Swish new church
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Swish new church

Robert Ian Williams seems to be rather fixed in a siege mentality and wanting to drive wedges between the Ordinariate, the Church of England and the Catholic hierarchy in the UK. The situation has changed dramatically since 1992 and the SSC situation. We now have an Apostolic Constitution which requires us to build bridges and, crucially, which refers to Anglican Bishops, Priests and Deacons. For Anglican Clergy and Laity wishing to enter into full communion with the See of Peter the Ordinariate is now the NORMATIVE route for them to follow. It is the only route which fully values, recognises… Read more »

David Malloch
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David Malloch

Rose, not all of the explanations provided in answer to your initial question are correct. CBS managed to avoid registration as a charity until 1999, when registration was required by a new Charity Act. In order to register, a constitution was written and subsequently approved by the Charity Commission. The constitution defined priesthood as male in a male succession, which was not the doctrine of the CofE. The initial draft of the constitution had the wording “Church of England and churches in communion with the Church of England”. This was rejected unanimously by the Council General and the words “Catholic… Read more »

Father Ron Smith
Guest

‘Swish New Church’, thank you for your eirenic comments on R.I.W’s misunderstanding of Gospel Mercy and its capacity to cover all situations.

I doubt R.I.W. would accept that Father Faber had anything worthwhile to contribute to Catholic Truth, being a priest of the Church of England when he wrote that wonderful hymn. R.I.W has ‘jumped the fence’ and nothing will dissuade him from his new understanding of Anglicanism as a can of worms.

Swish new church
Guest
Swish new church

David Malloch makes a good point and, indeed, casting one’s mind back the talk was of a “free province” or a “Third Province” for those who could not accept the Ordination of women and this thinking was later formalised in the book “Consecrated Women?” edited by, now Bishop, Jonathan Baker. Such a free province would have, if formed, begun serious ecumenical dialogue with the See of Peter immediately. A re-establishment of Communion with the See of Peter would mean a de-facto break with Canterbury and in this scenario the Council General of the CBS would want to be able to… Read more »

Robert ian Williams
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Robert ian Williams

I am trying to do no such thing. The Catholic church affirms the ministry of all Protestant ministers, who offer their ministry in sincerity. Ordination to the Catholic Church priesthood is absolute and unconditional. The Ordinariate has in the views of several persons, has taken a very dubious course with the million pound donation. As I point out, no Catholic priest can belong to an organisation which encourages the worship of bread in the Church of England. The Ordinariate is an option for some Anglo catholics ( 900 out of at least 50,000).. but a person converting from Anglicanism, can… Read more »

Robert Ian Williams
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Robert Ian Williams

The Ordinariate is not a third province. Its rejects the Anglican claim to be a church and branch of Catholicism, by virtue of its subscription to the Universal Catechism. It is a few hundred laity and a disproportionate number of laity, who represent a kind of Anglo Catholic theme park, which will be presented shortly with a liturgical tradition, a mish mash of Cranmer and Sarum! From this they hope to attract some cradle Catholics…as in the United States of America where the Anglican use is 90 per cent cradle Catholic! By the way any third province would have included… Read more »

Father Ron Smith
Guest

“The Ordinariate is not a third province. It rejects the Anglican claim to be a church and branch of Catholicism, by virtue of its subscription to the Universal Catechism.” – RIW – What a load of cod’s-wallop you do talk, Robert! Why on earth would the Ordinariate, then, seek to retain something of the ‘Anglican Patrimony’? Really, Robert you’ll have to do better than this. People will begin to question what is your motive for contributing to ‘Thinking Anglicans’ – other than to denigrate the Church into which you were baptized. Remember, Anglicanism was the part of the Body of… Read more »

Swish new church
Guest
Swish new church

RIW, you are a true Protestant! The Holy Father has created the Ordinariate but you always seem to think that you know better. You have done your damnedest to undermine it with comments, complaints and direct criticism which is disloyal to the Church which you claim to hold in such high regard. You are right about Reform which is why the VERY first thing that the brains in FiF (Fr Kirk) advocated was for the Free Province to divide into 2 provinces – an evangelical and a Catholic one. You really just were not in on the thinking in Anglo-Catholic… Read more »

Robert ian Williams
Guest
Robert ian Williams

It is not to be disloyal to question the pastoral practice of a diocese or of an ordinariate.

I believe the Ordinariate leadership have acted wrongly over the CBS grant.Indeed disgracefully.

Undermine the ordinariate!….they are doing it themselves.

let the courts decide..as that its where this matter is going.

Gosh a divided third province. The “orthodox ” split at birth..what a testimony!

swish, I find it dubious that you hide your real name..everything I have done is in public….

Swish new church
Guest
Swish new church

The CBS was completely right to make provision for the the continued adherence to their objects now that it is absolutely clear that there will be no chance of either reconciliation with Rome or sacramental assurance in the CofE once Women Bishops are created. “Let the courts decide”!, Do you read the bible? Anonymity – Indeed RIW you have a point but I have seen the evidence of your campaigns and institutions in newspapers and from your letter-writing campaigns setting yourself as judge and jury over other people’s souls and do not wish to expose myself or my family to… Read more »

Robert ian Williams
Guest
Robert ian Williams

As a loyal Catholic I also realise that Catholics can make mistakes, even those in pastoral positions. The Catholic Church does not teach pastoral competency on a local level as a Divine gift.That is why we have the scandal in Cloyne.

I believe and have respect for the rule of Law and feel the Courts should decide. However I hope that behind the scenes those in authority in Rome will make the Ordinariate see sense.

Not only will they tell them to return the money, but also tell Ordinariate priests that they can not be a member of the CBS.

Martin Reynolds
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Martin Reynolds

Unlike “Swish new church” I think the £1million diverted to the Ordinariate was not a proper use of the funds and I believe the money should be repaid – and will be repaid. If indeed this donation was made to make the provision “Swish new church” claims then why leave £850,000 or does the Ordinariate propose to take that too? RIW can hardly be blamed for criticising this novel development of Roman Catholicism’s grasping and underhanded manner – though I think he was ill advised to welcome it in principle when it was announced – I think he is feeling… Read more »

Swish new Church
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Swish new Church

The facts do not support any suggestion of illegal activity. This will not end up in Court, nothing illegal has been done! You might not like the grant and there are 12 people activily foaming at the mouth about it on Facebook (and a few hundred watching silently who’s views we do not know) They are not interested in facts (factual posts which are not anti-CBS or anti-Ordinariate quickly get deleted) or the Objects of the Charity, most never bothered to join and they are just using it as an excuse to “knock” the Catholic Church and the Ordinariate in… Read more »

Martin Reynolds
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Martin Reynolds

I think Swish new Church misunderstands legal opinions, I have commissioned and drafted more than a few. They do not give those who commissioned them any indemnity, nor are those who draft them liable if a court sees the law differently. Of course, the facts are not always those disclosed to the lawyer who opinion has been sought, indeed I would say that this is frequently the case. I would suggest that the Charity Commission’s remit is now much larger than that suggested by Swish new Church, Recent cases have shown that the Commission is empowered to investigate the veracity… Read more »

RRobert ian Williams
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RRobert ian Williams

Note how swish focuses on legality and not morality.

He is oblivious to what is going on behind the scenes and the ruling to come from Rome
preventing Catholic memebership of the CBS.