Thinking Anglicans

What Rowan Williams wrote about homosexuality in 1988

This is taken from a Jubilee Group pamphlet, published in 1988, and titled Speaking Love’s Name; Homosexuality: Some Catholic and Socialist Perspectives. Several excerpts are available on the web here.

The Introduction to the pamphlet was written by Rowan Willliams. A copy has been placed below the fold.

More about the Jubilee Group starting here.

The General Synod resolution of 11 November 1987 to which Rowan Williams refers:

‘This Synod affirms that the biblical and traditional teaching on chastity and fidelity in personal relationships is a response to, and expression of, God’s love for each one of us, and in particular affirms:

(1) that sexual intercourse is an act of total commitment which belongs properly within a permanent married relationship,
(2) that fornication and adultery are sins against this ideal, and are to be met by a call to repentance and the exercise of compassion,

(3) that homosexual genital acts also fall short of this ideal, and are likewise to be met by a call to repentance and the exercise of compassion,

(4) that all Christians are called to be exemplary in all spheres of morality, including sexual morality, and that holiness of life is particularly required of Christian leaders.’

As noted in GS Misc 842b:

Although often referred to as the ‘Higton motion’ (the debate was on a Private Member’s Motion from the Revd Tony Higton) what the Synod passed was in fact a substantially recast motion proposed by way of an amendment by the then Bishop of Chester, the Rt Revd Michael Baughen.

Introduction by Rowan Williams

The past year has been a wintry one for the Church of England; a time in which it has often been difficult to believe that it is possible to be an Anglican with integrity. We have shown ourselves to be self-destructive in our inner conflicts, in some very dramatic ways: above all, we have shown a degree of collective neurosis on the subject of sexuality that is really quite astounding in this century and this culture. We have, it seems, been happy to collude with the paranoia of populist homophobia, fuelled by the AIDS epidemic and by myths of gay ‘propaganda’ in schools — fuelled, that is, by tragedy on the one hand and lies on the other. Last November, the General Synod passed a resolution whose force remains ambiguous, declaring the undesirability of gay clergy being allowed to express and experience their sexual identity in the way most people do. Even the most superficial analysis of the debate shows how the Synod was simultaneously cajoled and panicked into this move: well-meaning ‘liberals’, equally afraid of the harshness of the original motion (about which the less said the better) and of getting involved in a genuinely theological debate on sexuality, joined hands with some of the most disturbing elements in the contemporary Church of England, those who are determined to make it an ideologically monolithic body, to produce a vote which has, in practice, delivered much of what the original motion aimed at. This shabby compromise has been held up by bishops as representing the ‘mind’ of the Church, and accorded something like legislative force. Bishops have appealed to it in justifying their actions against gay clergy and ordinands. It is becoming harder all the time for a gay person to be honest in the Church. We have helped to build a climate in which concealment is rewarded — while at the same time conniving with the hysteria of the gutter press, and effectively giving into their hands as victims all those who do not manage successful concealment. And the lowest point has come with the vendetta conducted by the Diocese of London through its legal officers against the parish of St. Botolph’s, Aldgate, and the Lesbian and Gay Christian Movement.

What, as a church, do we think we are doing? It is time we heard and applied to ourselves the woes addressed by Jesus to those who put stumbling blocks before those who believe — or seek to believe, or understand what it is to believe. For whom are the actions of the past few months good news? Perhaps for the moralists who seem to think that discipleship is primarily about rule-keeping in a restricted field of behaviour (but who are not above collaborating with a segment of the Press that is openly pornographic); or for those who cannot cope with the rapidity of change in sexual mores, especially the new habit of talking with confidence and self-trust about sexuality. It is possible to feel some real sympathy for people who are bewildered and even hurt by such changes, and it is crucial not to forget that they too have pastoral needs. But as the New Testament makes plain, to go at the pace of the slowest, to respect the human needs of those whose vision is less clear, is not to compromise on the substantive point of what liberty in Christ means. The Church of England has indeed been giving an uncertain moral lead, just as it has been accused of doing — but the uncertainty has been over the moral and spiritual importance of truthfulness, truth to one’s own nature, truth in relations with other believers. The more we make such truthfulness impossible, the more we quench the Spirit.

As the debate amply shows, ‘liberalism’ is not enough. It is hopelessly inadequate now to think that we can go back to the comfortably discreet situation in which sexual orientation was known and tacitly accepted, but never discussed, let alone affirmed. Such a situation too helps to nourish just that coyness, adolescent naughtiness and irresponsibility which many, gay and straight, I have found so tiresome a feature of the ecclesiastical gay scene: no-one holds you responsible for an adult sexuality, or suggests that you might need to share and reflect as much as anyone else, and there is little help in working out a tough and consistent morality. To argue for the need for gay liberation in the Church is not to commend a policy of letting everyone go their way in a bland situationist paradise, but to ask that this issue become part of the collective and public reflection of the Church, something on which experience can be shared and supportive and challenging patterns evolved. But aren’t there, frankly, a great many more important matters for the Church in general and Catholic Socialists in particular, to get involved in at the moment? This is the voice of the contemporary wisdom of the Labour Party, in other terms, and, there as here, it assumes that justice is divisible. If we have no integrity here, we cannot expect to carry conviction elsewhere, because the issues of victimisation and disempowering are the same here as with the questions of race, sex and class. Even more importantly, for the Christian, we, as a church, make the claim that we show something of that order of human relationships in which God is the final creative authority (‘the Kingdom of God’). When we produce a situation of repression and dishonesty, we at the very least put that claim in question for many of those in need of the good news of Christ. This is not an optional extra for us. The present collection of essays is an attempt to acknowledge the mess we are — in; to express some of the hurt and anger that has been generated (not least among those who feel that their pastors in the Church, especially those in ‘leadership’ positions, have let them down); and to move the necessary theological discussion a little bit further forward. But it will have made its point if it communicates why so many people currently feel ashamed of our Church’s public voice on this issue. Not all of us are fully agreed on the tactics or the theology of where we go next; but we share the sense that our Church has not done well in these matters, and that we are in urgent need of plain speaking and clear thinking, recognising that there is a debate to be conducted (which has already begun long since, if the truth be told) about theology and spirituality, one that is not to be sidetracked either by the trading of texts or by a tactful but finally corrupting liberal discretion.

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Rick+
Guest

I truly can’t recognize this as being from the current Archbishop given his actions. I’ve always loved Rowan’s writings, but I remain baffled by his actions.

Scott
Guest
Scott

I am often reminded that Rowan Williams was such a great writer. It seems sad that the Archbishop of Canterbury appears not to have read any of Dr. Williams’s books…

Richard Ashby
Guest
Richard Ashby

Did I read somewhere that Tony Higton has somewhat changed his mind?

Daniel Berry
Guest
Daniel Berry

Wow. He musta’ forgot he wrote that.

Chris Smith
Guest
Chris Smith

I wonder if we can associate Rowan’s credibility issues on the subject of homosexuality with his HANDLERS? Could it be that Rowan doesn’t speak until his “handlers” determine what his “script” will be? This is a real shame as his writings prior to his becoming Archbishop of Canterbury, are first rate. All of this sounds like a replay of “Backstage At The Vatican.” It appears there may already be an Anglican style Magisterium. If not, it certainly sounds like the kind of double speak that emanates from the Vatican on a regular basis. Rowan will have to decide. Do human… Read more »

William
Guest
William

THIS is the Rowan Williams whose elevation and translation to the See of Canterbury we welcomed with so much gratitude and pleasure. And THIS is NOT the Archbishop Rowan Williams who presides with so little distinction as the head of a rebellious, embarassing and disintegrating denomination. Not all of it is Rowan Williams’s fault. But quite a lot of it is. And I for one am tired, and wafer-close to being unchurched, because for me the Anglican Way was the bridge to carry me to All Truth. And there were and are no other bridges in plain view – but… Read more »

JCF
Guest
JCF

“The ***past year*** has been a wintry one for the Church of England; a time in which it has often been difficult to believe that it is possible to be an Anglican with integrity. We have shown ourselves to be self-destructive in our inner conflicts, in some very dramatic ways: above all, we have shown a degree of collective neurosis on the subject of sexuality that is really quite astounding in this century and this culture. We have, it seems, been happy to collude with the paranoia of populist homophobia, fuelled by the AIDS epidemic and by myths of gay… Read more »

Giles Fraser
Guest
Giles Fraser

Did someone kidnap the man who wrote this and replace him with a conservative look-a-like?

A J Barford
Guest
A J Barford

Rowan Williams’ credibility as an intellectual remains intact if we allow for the possibility that he regards his current role – in part – as an extended academic exercise in which he gets into the shoes of his predecessor(s) to ascertain what is required of him as ABC. We underestimate, I think, how wounding the Reading affair was for him, and how abhorrent he found the Lambeth 1998 1:10 debacle. The only way to seek redress for these episodes was – perversely – to capitulate to his opponents who outnumber him on the episcopal circuit. Then he allows the role… Read more »

Barry Fernelius
Guest
Barry Fernelius

I can see two possibilities. First, Rowan Williams simply may not hold the same opinions in 2011 that he held twentythree years ago. In this case, he’s taken a 180 degree turn. If this is the case, he’s taken significant steps backward (at least, in my opinion), but his actions as Archbishop are in accord with his conscience. The second possibility is that Rowan Williams holds opinions today that are very similar to the opinions that he held twenty three years ago with respect to human sexuality. Unfortunately, as Archbishop of Canterbury, he feels that he can’t put these ideas… Read more »

JCF
Guest
JCF

“We underestimate, I think, how wounding the Reading affair was for him”

Give me a break, AJ. Was Neville Chamberlain “wounded” in 1938, or was it the Czechs?

The wound of “the Reading affair” was the knife left in *Jeffrey John’s* back!

Martin Reynolds
Guest
Martin Reynolds

There is another Jubilee Group pamphlet from about the same time where Rowan argues that progress/change should be at the speed of the slowest …… combined this with the Gillian Rose approach …… gives more of the flavour of the man. Even then its still some way off the mark.

I see nothing in what Rowan writes or says to guess he has changed his personal views.

He wrote some time ago that Ratzinger was a man of three parts, theologian/teacher, bishop/CDF, Pope – and that he preferred the first ……………….. I guess many would say the same about him …..

Pluralist
Guest

The Covenant is Rowan Williams’s policy, his solution: he drives it relentlessly and people who would vote against it vote for it so as not to offend. He has become the ultimate Church bureaucrat, and he is not passive about this but active – he tells the laity and others of the General Synod of the ordinal when he wants a local bishop to him in charge of the business. The documentation for the Covenant is all one way argument. Why did it happen? Perhaps on taking ‘the job’ he became scared of the future of the institution, and stood… Read more »

rjb
Guest
rjb

I think some commenters here could be a little more charitable to poor Rowan. I have reason to believe (from people who know the Archbishop well) that his private views have not changed significantly. I think the ABC believes that in his current role he does not have the luxury of giving voice to his own views on sexuality, as he did when he was merely a priest and an academic. You may disagree with this view (it is certainly not one that his predecessor ever shared), but it is a thoroughly conscientious one. From my own very limited conversations… Read more »

Chris Smith
Guest
Chris Smith

A vote for the Covenant, merely because they do not wish to offend the Archbishop is the worst possible reason to vote for such a divisive document. Rowan needs to take some blame here. There is entirely too much of this “we do not want to offend him” attitude. This so called “Covenant” is a piece of poison. It disenfranchises rather than includes. Rowan’s hand is all over this and it is foolish to think otherwise. He needs to show some backbone and some honor. It would be a good time for him to speak AGAINST this “Covenant” but what… Read more »

Erika Baker
Guest
Erika Baker

“From my own very limited conversations with him I know that he is acutely aware of the human cost of the line he feels compelled to walk” The traditional Christian approach is to to suffer the consequences of your conscience yourself not to place them on others. For whatever reason, he has manoeuvred himself into a place where he is now simply in the wrong. I can see that the original plan was a good one. Get people to talk to one another, start a listening process, stress how important unity is… it could have worked. It should have worked.… Read more »

peterpi - Peter Gross
Guest
peterpi - Peter Gross

So, rjb, Abp. Rowan Williams is acutely aware of the human cost of the line he pursues, and it pains him, but he pursues it anyway. Are those suffering the human cost supposed to feel relieved that Abp. Williams, to use an Americanism, “feels their pain”? How does silently acknowledging their pain help the suffering in any way? Sacrifice the few — a few that must be used to being sacrificed by now so it’s no big deal to them, right? — to benefit the many? But, are the many really being benefited? I think not. Also, if one particular… Read more »

Nat
Guest
Nat

RJB, while I admire your call for charity, even share it, the role of a leader is to lead, not to follow, wobble, or wring his hands. If the Archbishop holds more inclusive views views on sexuality, views that are contrary to those of many conservatives, it is his duty to express those views, to teach, to persuade, to lead; to do otherwise is to smother the small, still voice that the Spirit puts in us to lead us. But the wound is in Jeffrey John, the gay community has received no comfort or word of hope, reactionaries who doubt… Read more »

commentator
Guest
commentator

Without a doubt, Dr Williams deserves our continuing prayers. But he also deserves to be challenged to hold true to that which ‘rjb’ appears to maintain is still his personal view. Why has God called Dr Williams to serve Him as Archbishop of Canterbury? Surely God has chosen him because of what he believes and of what his personal integrity would call him to uphold. The Gospel tells us that the truth will set us free. God does not call Dr Williams to anything other than that living freedom in the Truth. Being true to himself is the best way… Read more »

Savi Hensman
Guest
Savi Hensman

I think he has a sincere but misguided view that church unity (especially among Anglicans and with Roman Catholic and Orthodox churches) is the top priority and that this can be achieved by capitulating to senior clergy who are firmly opposed to greater inclusion.

Richard Ashby
Guest
Richard Ashby

‘There is another Jubilee Group pamphlet from about the same time where Rowan argues that progress/change should be at the speed of the slowest’. Take that line and absolutely nothing would have happened in the Church in the last 50 years. No women, no ecumenical projects, no Faith in the City, no welcoming others to our altars, no liturgical developments, no Series 1/2/3 no ASB, no Common Worship, I could go on and on. The pace of the slowest is like the Steward who burried his talent in the ground and did sod all with it and we know what… Read more »

Dan Barnes-Davies
Guest

Just in case things like these comments get read or digested by or for ++Rowan, I would like to encourage him that a great many of us have deep faith and respect for him. I personally believe he is a good man and I pray often for courage for him. God bless you, Dr Williams, and God bless our GLBT siblings.

Gary Paul Gilbert
Guest
Gary Paul Gilbert

If Rowan Williams ever embraced LGBT liberation it did not last long. Rather than affirming liberation, he says in this 1988 text that gay priests, in order to mature as persons, must submit to their bishops and that the church must find a way to help them deal with their sexuality. The focus, not surprisingly, is clerical, even though the issue at the time was all LGBTs within the Church of England. An institution which for centuries oppressed LGBTs would supposedly repent and prescribe acceptable behaviour for gay priests (and non-ordained LBGTs?). In principle, it makes sense for all members… Read more »

Gary Paul Gilbert
Guest
Gary Paul Gilbert

In my previous comment I should have said that the New York State Legislature passed the Marriage Equality bill last month, not this month. I should have focused on how Rowan offers no evidence for his observation that many gay priests are immature. He could be arguing that the closet has wounded gays and lesbians in the ministry, but it also comes close to the standard heterosexist view of gay men. The straight man with a wife doing the housework (even today women are still more likely to do the housework, alas!) is not necessarily more “mature.” I am struck… Read more »

cseitz
Guest
cseitz

I agree with RJB that Rowan’s view of Christian belief is not one widely shared here. His private view is not the equivalent of the church’s view, as he perceives it, which entails as well where he sees the church in its length and breadth. Most here see the church in different terms. In many ways it is the mirror image of individualistic fundamentalism: the church is where specific causes are being furthered and where individual conviction is paramount (the Bible is inerrant; the sexual progressive position is inerrant). The catholic view has been that certain beliefs have been so… Read more »

Malcolm French+
Guest

While I can understand (and even respect) the position that rjb ascribes to Rowan, I cannot and will not accept or tolerate the political manipulations he has engaged in to advance his odious Covenant. To use the bully pulpit of his opening address at a previous General Synod to condemn anyone actually disagreeing with his pet project and daring to “campaign” against suggests to me that the man is completely bereft of any ethical sense at all.

JCF
Guest
JCF

“The catholic view has been that certain beliefs have been so tested through time that they are not unassailable, but would be open to change only with great, resounding consensus.”

See re Richard Ashby’s comment above: it sounds like you’re proposing change ONLY (if) at the change of the slowest.

*Real* LGBT Christians have *real* calls—to ordained ministry, to marriage. They need the Church to uplift them in these callings. I hear you propose (endless!) ecclesial fiddling, while your LGBT brothers & sisters burn.

cseitz
Guest
cseitz

No, change can happen at whatever pace you (or your mirror image on the other end of the spectrum) deem appropriate, given the cause you mention. The point being made is that the ABC is likely to be influenced by a different understanding of the church. You needn’t agree with that of course. But the implications follow. The ABC appears to want a covenant as a means of ecclesial recognisability (or so he has said). That would not be a church you ‘recognise’ because it does not espouse your views. It would be a church recognisable to others, however. The… Read more »

Gary Paul Gilbert
Guest
Gary Paul Gilbert

Cseitz’s opinion that “catholicism” (whatever that would be given the demise of Anglo-Catholicism) requires a supermajority before making ethical decisions is unethical, for that would affirm the tyranny of the majority and the prejudice of a culture. The people, if not the medieval hierarchy of the C of E, have moved on in any case. All members of the church should have the same rights. Otherwise, the old principle of the dignity of the human person will continue to be violated. Saying a teaching is not unassailable but would require an overwhelming consensus to overturn goes against the very best… Read more »

cseitz
Guest
cseitz

I wouldn’t care to speak for him, but suspect the Archbishop has in view the great ancient churches as representing the ‘catholic’ faith and practice, and in that context recognisability (not the same as uniformity with them) is the goal. (‘Anglo-catholicism is an internal category, by contrast.) Of course councils can err — though whether this is a genuine reformation insight is another matter. That has nothing to do with the point at issue as the ABC sees it, re: a covenant. Others will find this concern wrong and so will not wish to covenant. Both sides appear to agree… Read more »

JCF
Guest
JCF

“No, change can happen at whatever pace you (or your mirror image on the other end of the spectrum) deem appropriate, given the cause you mention.”

You still don’t get it, Dr Seitz. I’m not talking about a “cause”. I’m talking about ***human beings*** (Y’know, the Imago Dei (made LGBT)? Beloved and redeemed by Christ? Your brothers and sisters in the Church? Us.)

Father Ron Smith
Guest

“It is becoming harder all the time for a gay person to be honest in the Church. We have helped to build a climate in which concealment is rewarded — while at the same time conniving with the hysteria of the gutter press, and effectively giving into their hands as victims all those who do not manage successful concealment.” – ABC – One hopes that Archbishop Rowan has not renegged on his opinion, clearly stated here, that there is a culture of concealment within the Church that is positively unhealthy. Therefore, to allow the protestations of the lunatic fringe –… Read more »

Gary Paul Gilbert
Guest
Gary Paul Gilbert

Thank you for explaining the UK context, cseitz. “Catholic,” since Vatican II, has been the whole people of God, not just the institutions. It sounds as if Williams is following an older model of catholicity. Baptism rather than ordination is the primary sacrament.

Gary Paul Gilbert

MarkBrunson
Guest

Does it still not occur to anyone that his writings in 1988 cost him nothing and gained him a certain luster with the academics with which he was largely concerned? I do NOT trust him. I do NOT believe he is a good or holy man. He is a self-promoter, an ambitious career builder, and, far from intelligent, he is merely cunning. A politico, like all those who’ve made the weak claim that “church” overrides doing what is right. It is a deceitful, wrong-headed, and thoroughly despicable claim. Stop wasting your time on praying for him, and pray, instead, for… Read more »

Father Ron Smith
Guest

I happen to still think that Abp. Rowan Williams was called by God to lead the Church of England after the debacle of ‘Lambeth 1:10’. However. the machinations of the conservative hierarchy of the Church have succeeded in changing the focus of Rowan’s archi-episcopate, to the point where he feels helpless to pursue the inclusive agenda that he had formerly espoused – before he became the Archbishop of Canterbury. His advisors – such as Nazir-Ali, Scott-Joynt, and his predecessor, George Carey – have ambushed him into agreeing with the puritanical spirit of sola-scriptura-ism, to the extent that threats of further… Read more »

cseitz
Guest
cseitz

The ‘whole people of God’ who worship in Roman Catholic or Orthodox churches have not sided with the progressive agenda of liberal anglicanism, and neither have the vast majority of Pentecostals, Baptists, and world-wide Christian churches. Most of them see the agenda of TEC as a cultural and not a spiritual issue. They can be written off as misguided and bigots, but that is the Christian faith they hold, often at great risk to life. This is simply a fact on the ground. It is one that the present ABC believes is relevant to an understanding of church, and how… Read more »

Pat O'Neill
Guest
Pat O'Neill

C Seitz:

Once again we have the argument of numbers…if the descendants of Abraham had taken this stance, we’d all be worshiping Baal and Isis today.

cseitz
Guest
cseitz

Baal and Isis worshippers = the missionary spread of Christianity in its historical length and breadth, including as well the saints gone before?

Or are you now saying that the 7000 who did not bow the knee to Baal are TEC Christians and those with a new teaching on sexuality, and all the rest of Christendom is a vast predominating idolotrous mass of false worshippers?

To Abraham was promised not a tiny remnant of ‘true believers’ but descendents as numerous as the stars in the heavens. Was God’s promise also an ‘argument of numbers’?

Erika Baker
Guest
Erika Baker

And where does this strange idea come from that human rights, equality and the compassionate and fair treatment of everyone are “cultural” and therefor inherently less important than something loftily “spiritual” that is far less just and fair?

Did Jesus ever dismiss anything to do with the fair treatment of people in favour of some disconnected spiritual practice?

Pat O'Neill
Guest
Pat O'Neill

C Seitz:

Yes, but Abraham and his family were surrounded by millions of people who clearly rejected their vision of monotheism. Just as, today, those who believe in a more inclusive church and society are surrounded by millions who reject their vision. You would have us abandon what the Spirit has told us is right in order to satisfy those millions…what if Abraham, Sarah, and Isaac had done the same?

Father Ron Smith
Guest

I have long suspected our friend, Christopher Seitz, of being something of a Gnostic. His last comment confirms this. His talk of ‘the whole people of God’ – being everyone except TEC – is somewhat mischievous and hardly helpful in the conversation being carried on here. However, what can one expect of an ACI academic?

cseitz
Guest
cseitz

It would be hard to know where to begin. ‘Fair’ — is it obvious to Christians (and others) everywhere that being gay is a) an actual class of individuals created by God as such, and b) is inextricably tied up with sexual conduct. Of course you believe the answer to these questions is Yes. But you will not understand the convictions of vast swaths of Christians unless you accept that these ideas are contested or rejected altogether. Indeed, they would simply point to the same Jesus you do and quote him in respect of marriage and sexual ethics. Was Jesus… Read more »

Geoff
Guest

“and all the rest of Christendom is a vast predominating idolotrous mass of false worshippers?”

The capricious cruelty attributed by the anti-gay crowd to their God is certainly not characteristic of the God of Israel, who is certainly not a sadist, and so in that sense they could be said to be worshipping a strange god.

Pat O'Neill
Guest
Pat O'Neill

C Seitz:

Let’s try a little editing on your last sentence:

We are in many ways talking about incommensurate understandings of God and religion. That is why what is obvious to Abraham and his family is far from obvious to the rest of the peoples of the ancient world.

NOW do you see my point?

Geoff
Guest

“Was Jesus being ‘fair’ when he underscored this sexual ethic?” More than some of his followers are, since he acknowledged that “not all can accept this teaching” and “some are born eunuchs.” “is it obvious to Christians (and others) everywhere that being gay is a) an actual class of individuals created by God as such, and b) is inextricably tied up with sexual conduct. Of course you believe the answer to these questions is Yes. But you will not understand the convictions of vast swaths of Christians unless you accept that these ideas are contested or rejected altogether.” But on… Read more »

cseitz
Guest
cseitz

Gnostics — would that be those people who believe that real Christians (themselves) are an enlightened minority, that their small number is a signal of their special knowledge?

JCF
Guest
JCF

IS there a collective, overwhelming majority of “the rest of Christendom”, around the world, who *understand themselves* to be explicitly anti-gay? You have said so, Dr Seitz.

I don’t know—and you don’t know, either. There simply hasn’t been the kind of research by which to know.

I *do* know that, when it comes to following the God of the Bible OR “the principalities and powers” (see re Ugandan “Kill the Gays” bill), it doesn’t matter.

cseitz
Guest
cseitz

“What the Spirit has told you” — and not told others. Again, this resembles the claims of enlightened Gnostics.

The millions who rejected the vision of Abraham — these are Christians who do not accept the special spiritual knowledge of the enlightened?
What a strange effort at analogy.

cseitz
Guest
cseitz

I’ve learned a lot about how those here think about the Gospel, the God of Israel, false worship, the Spirit’s work, Abraham and those who reject his vision, and so forth. Thank you for sharing your views.

Erika Baker
Guest
Erika Baker

Dr Seitz The dividing line is not just between the Zeitgeist and Christianity though, is it. The dividing line is right among us and spiritual and genuine, deep, passionate and scriptural Christians are on either side of the debate. Jesus didn’t ever teach in a vacuum. The thing I absolutely love about the bible is that he knows the individual he talks to through and through and speaks right to their situation. And that we then find it is possible to extrapolate from that to what God wants for all of us. You know the various liberal arguments in favour… Read more »