Thinking Anglicans

LLF: News and Views

Updated

Spectator Theo Hobson The C of E is right to prevaricate on gay marriage

Church Times Jayne Ozanne Why the Church must decide now on same-sex marriage

ViaMedia.News Neil Patterson Time for the Church to Come Out

St Helen’s Bishopsgate PCC Letter to Bishop of London

Premier Christianity Sean Doherty 8 reasons why the CofE’s same-sex proposals won’t work

Church Times Church holds ‘Orwellian position’ on sexuality, Sandi Toksvig tells Archbishop Welby over tea and As the Actress said to the Bishop…

College of Deans Living in Love and Faith: College of Deans response

Anglican Orthodox  Grassroots Anglicans call on Evangelical Bishops to reject plans for blessing same-sex unions

Trevor Thurston-Smith Same Sex Marriage – A Battle for the Soul of the CofE?

Update

Fulcrum Andrew Goddard Last Rites for LLF?

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Fr Dean
Fr Dean
1 year ago

Someone should inform Theo Hobson that nobody really uses the term ‘homosexual’ any more; it’s a novel and pseudo medical term for an aspect of human sexuality that has been there since the beginning of time.

As for St Helen’s Bishopsgate; I’d assumed they had cancelled their direct debit to the Diocese of London years ago with the appointment of Dame Sarah as the Bishop of London.

James Byron
James Byron
Reply to  Fr Dean
1 year ago

I’ve said here before that Christian socialism evaporated in England when its leading advocate, Giles Fraser, voted Conservative to secure Brexit; given the views now expressed by one of the last (and certainly most prominent) liberals, I must now say the same for that tradition. What a sad end it is.

I love the Prayer Book and Authorized Version, support equal marriage, and disagree with biblical authority as a concept. A mass of contradictions. Call it what you like: but it’s more coherent than whatever liberalism’s become.

Anthony Archer
Anthony Archer
Reply to  Fr Dean
1 year ago

No hint on the rather secular headed notepaper of St Helen’s Bishopsgate (SHB) that it is a Church of England parish church, which is of course deliberate. The letter to the Bishop of London is so predictable that I could have written it for them. The implied threat re contributions to the Diocesan Common Fund (that having been paused they will not be resumed) is a mean, worthless gesture. According to my reading of their accounts for 2021, SHB only paid £44,000 to the Common Fund, yet reported total income for the year of £4.79 million. I assume they pay all their clergy… Read more »

Last edited 1 year ago by Anthony Archer
Perry Butler
Perry Butler
Reply to  Anthony Archer
1 year ago

I have often wondered how great the financial threat is. I think other bigger conservative evangelical churches are already paying a common fund contribution which doesn’t match the financial resources of their church.

Anthony Archer
Anthony Archer
Reply to  Perry Butler
1 year ago

Yes, they often do a deal, if the formula leads to a very significant amount – say well north of £150,000. I think that’s fine. It’s being commercial. The problem I have is the arrogant SHBs of this world.

Andrew Dawswell
Andrew Dawswell
Reply to  Anthony Archer
1 year ago

Anthony’s figures don’t suggest nearly as big as disparity in how much HTB & St Helens Bishopsgate give to their diocese as his text suggests. If HTB pay £248K, but this includes London diocese funding their vicar (which in our part of the world is costing around £75K; I doubt the figure for Lond would be any less), then the net is 1.48% of their £11.71M income. SHB’s percentage of 0.92% would be less, assuming Anthony’s figures are accurate but the percentage difference isn’t nearly as great as suggested. It would be interesting to make comparisons with any non-evangelical churches… Read more »

Peter
Peter
1 year ago

One has to wonder if anything could ever be said or done which would see Andrew Goddard reach a conclusion other than insisting further discussion is needed.

He is clearly an agreeable and empathetic man. However he appears incapable of seeing what the rest of us can see from both sides of the divide.

The bishops have driven the Church of England over the edge of a cliff. It’s time to begin a new church without them

David Runcorn
David Runcorn
Reply to  Peter
1 year ago

I agree with regard to Andrew Goddard. I have no clue what position on this he would accept other a conservative ‘no change’. I am among many he has sought out for conversation over time. I did not expect to persuade him. But, like others he has engaged with, it would be nice to see some evidence that we have been heard and responded to. But your last two sentences, Peter, are, for me, a total misreading of the situation.

Peter
Peter
Reply to  David Runcorn
1 year ago

I’m a conservative. A debate that never ends is an affliction to us all

Unreliable Narrator
Unreliable Narrator
Reply to  Peter
1 year ago

Why begin a new church? If you want the Church of England only without bishops, just pop round the corner to the Methodists. (That’s a perfectly serious question, by the way)

Peter
Peter
Reply to  Unreliable Narrator
1 year ago

My criticism is of the current group who call themselves the bishops of the Church of England.

Responsible bishops are a blessing to a church.

(For the avoidance of doubt, I hold to the orthodox position on marriage)

Graham Watts
Graham Watts
1 year ago

This would be the same Sean Doherty that put out a tweet on 21 January, though since deleted possibly due to the responses directed at him.
Curious sense of humour. But makes him smile he said

Screenshot_20230122-093254.jpg
Jeremy
Jeremy
1 year ago

On Thursday 2 February the Commons will have a “Backbench business debate” on LGBT History Month.
If I understand the procedure correctly, this is not an opportunity to question government ministers or the Church Commissioners. Nevertheless it might be an interesting debate, with Synod next week.

Jeremy Pemberton
Jeremy Pemberton
1 year ago

Little attention has been paid to the admirable (and admirably brief) response of the English Deans. Not all of them signed, but among the signatories are one or two surprises!
It is the most supportive of LGBT people and forward-looking response I have seen so far, and deserves to be widely shared.

Froghole
Froghole
Reply to  Jeremy Pemberton
1 year ago

Might the rather different approach of the deans be informed by the fact that the cost of cathedrals (and the pay and rations of many capitular clergy) are a charge to the Commissioners? I appreciate that this is the case for the bishops’ pay and rations also, but their diocesan bureaucracies are dependent on parish share for their sustenance, meaning that the bishops are more susceptible to ‘suasion’ from some of the parishes who pay the most share. I have increasingly found that, with the Church of England – as with the Nixon Administration or most other bureaucracies – it… Read more »

Kate
Kate
Reply to  Froghole
1 year ago

I don’t know. Maybe some here do. But I wonder if the average dean has more contact with a broad cross-section of society than the average bishop?

Froghole
Froghole
Reply to  Simon Sarmiento
1 year ago

Many thanks and apologies for that, although I have been aware of the key importance of donations and their trading operations, friends groups, etc. I had noted from past reading of the Commissioners’ annual reports that there are several kinds of grant, and that not only are 3 capitular clergy covered – usually the majority of the clerical element in any chapter – but also the costs of certain lay officials (subject to a means test for the applicable cathedral). Therefore, the grants are partly mandatory and partly discretionary (the mandatory grants being a quid pro quo for the appropriation… Read more »

NJW
NJW
Reply to  Froghole
1 year ago

Beyond the Dean+2 funding which all cathedrals receive, it is generally the non-historic cathedrals that tend to receive a larger proportion of the ongoing support (on the, not entirely correct, basis that historic cathedrals have further endowments to support their work). Aside from this there have been a number of one-off grants to historic cathedrals during the course of COVID and the Cost-of-living Crisis, and there are a number of other ways that historic cathedrals might obtain non-revenue support from the Commissioners. Thus a historic cathedral will often only receive the grant for the dean+2 as a certain ongoing income… Read more »

Froghole
Froghole
Reply to  NJW
1 year ago

Many thanks for that. Yes, it was the capitular estates which were appropriated to the Ecclesiastical Commissioners (as they then were) after 1840, although this often occurred gradually as prebends fell vacant and were suppressed. These estates did not include prebendal houses or canonries in cathedral closes, which in many cases form the historic assets to which I assume you are referring. Almost all of these properties have now been vacated in most closes by capitular clergy, albeit with some conspicuous exceptions (such as the deaneries at Canterbury or Winchester), and in a number of cases the freeholds have also… Read more »

James Byron
James Byron
Reply to  Jeremy Pemberton
1 year ago

Thanks for highlighting that, Jeremy. Without naming names, I’m shocked by some of those on that list. Which just shows that nothing’s as predictable as +Justin seems to think, and if he brought forward proposals for equal marriage, who knows what could happen.

Susannah Clark
Reply to  James Byron
1 year ago

But does he want to? The compromised approach gives him marginally more leeway with the Anglican Communion and, in terms of his legacy, I suspect he really does not want the Communion to completely implode on his watch. Furthermore he risks schism if he achieves undiluted equal marriage, and then it’s the Church of England imploding on his watch as well. Bottom line is: what DOES he believe? There’s so little transparency and so much is opaque. He won’t even answer the question: ‘Do you personally think gay people having sex is a sin?’ We simply don’t know. From what… Read more »

John Davies
John Davies
Reply to  Susannah Clark
1 year ago

Have you seen the front page story on today’s (2/2/2023) Guardian? Admittedly, when you read it closely, it is an overheard comment in an otherwise private conversation, but it does give you an idea of where he really stands.

Susannah Clark
Reply to  John Davies
1 year ago

Thanks John. Yes I saw it. To be forensic, as you point out, it is hearsay. MP says he said xxx, Justin’s source says he didn’t. I wish Harriet Sherwood of the Guardian would stop referring to the global Anglican ‘church’. It’s not a Church, it’s a communion of autonomous provincial organisations. If Justin feels he had to hold back from gay marriage for the sake of the Communion, why did he put us all through LLF in the first place? But we can’t really know what he said unless the meeting was recorded. It’s a shame it wasn’t, because… Read more »

John Davies
John Davies
Reply to  Susannah Clark
1 year ago

Thanks, Susannah. Sadly I’ve learned it is better to be very careful about the accuracy of the press – indeed, I wouldn’t believe the date on the front pages of certain papers without checking a calendar! Say no more……..

Laurence Cunnington
Laurence Cunnington
1 year ago

Does anyone know what input Revd Dr Isabelle Hamley has had to the LLF proposals, given her role as Theological Advisor to the House of Bishops?

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