It has been announced that the Electoral College of the Church in Wales has elected the Rt Revd Cherry Vann, Bishop of Monmouth, as the fifteenth Archbishop of Wales, and her election has been confirmed by the Bench of Bishops. The announcement is copied below.
More pictures can be seen on Facebook here. There is a BBC News report here.
New Archbishop of Wales elected
A new Archbishop of Wales has been elected today, 30 July 2025.
Cherry Vann who has served as the Bishop of Monmouth for the past five years, has been chosen as the 15th Archbishop of Wales.
She succeeds Bishop Andrew John who retired in July after three and a half years as the leader of the Church in Wales.
Archbishop Cherry was elected having secured a two-thirds majority vote from members of the Electoral College on the second day of its meeting at the St Pierre Church and Hotel in Chepstow. The election was confirmed by the other diocesan bishops and announced by the Provincial Secretary of the Church in Wales, Simon Lloyd. Archbishop Cherry will be enthroned at Newport Cathedral in due course. As Archbishop she will continue to serve as Bishop of Monmouth.
Originally from Leicestershire, Archbishop Cherry Vann was consecrated as Bishop of Monmouth in 2020. Cherry was ordained as a deacon in 1989. She was then among the first women to be ordained as a priest in the Church of England in 1994. She then served as Archdeacon of Rochdale, in the Diocese of Manchester, for 11 years.
She said, “”The first thing I shall need to do is to ensure that the issues which have been raised in the last six months are properly addressed and that I work to bring healing and reconciliation, and to build a really good level of trust across the Church and the communities the Church serves.”
The Very Revd Ian Black, Dean of Newport welcomed the news on behalf of the Diocese of Monmouth.
He said, “Cherry is the right person for this moment in the Church in Wales’ life. She has the skills and vision that we need to restore trust following some very public failings. She has brought stability to the Diocese of Monmouth, managing the change to ministry areas with clarity and purpose, showing deep care for the clergy and people. This foundation will be a good base as she leads the Province over the next few years.
“She has a deep faith, which is also open to those who take a different view to her, and this has impressed those people enormously.
“I look forward to supporting her as Dean of her Cathedral. One of our duties and pleasures here is to pray for the bishop every day and we will continue to do so gladly.”
So delighted. An excellent appointment.
Inspired nomination.
Congratulations to her I hope she is Happy in her role. The speed of the appointment- from Andrew Johns resignation to this. Makes me think the CNC process needs reviewing immediately especially for the Archbishoprics. Edinburgh Diocese is about to be vacant and this is the timetable Saturday 27 September 2025 – Preliminary Meeting of Electoral Synod (including an in-person meeting in Edinburgh of the Preparatory Committee). Saturday 7 February 2026 – Electoral Synod meeting with candidates. Saturday 14 February 2026 – Electoral Synod meeting to undertake election. If Scotland and Wales can do these appointments faster why does a CNC need to be so long? Whilst… Read more »
Not to mention that the Roman Catholic Church chooses a Pope quickly. By the way, as we now have a American Pope, how about an American Archbishop of Canterbury? There are many well-qualified Episcopal bishops. They all speak English with accents similar to Leo’s.
But can they swear allegiance to the King???
Not the American one!
Very good news!
I watched part of Cherry’s consecration online and was delighted to observe that Archbishop Kay Goldsworthy of Perth was present.
What a hopeful appointment.
I am sure that this will be an excellent appointment. It would also be interesting to know how fluent Archbishop Vann is in Welsh. From the middle of the 19th century it became policy to appoint genuinely Welsh bishops, and – more importantly – it became a sine qua non for them to be very capable in Welsh. This was because it was widely believed that one of the main reasons for the collapse in Church attendance was the perception that its bishops were colonial imports, who had little or no facility in Welsh. Bishop Vann (as she then was)… Read more »
My memory may not be perfect but I don’t recall Archbishop Derrick Childs, who retired from Monmouth in 1986, being noted for Welsh language proficiency, but maybe I am.wrong.
The constitution of the CinW recognises that its not imperative for the Archbishop to be a Welsh speaker. The Bishop who holds the portfolio for the Welsh language will act on behalf of the Archbishop where Welsh language is imperative. However ++Cherry is able to bless, confirm, baptise and ordain in Welsh when asked to do so. Even here in Newport liturgical Welsh is regularly employed. Hope this helps.
The bishop of St Davids Dorrien Davies is the only native Welsh speaker. Wigan born Carl Cooper learnt Welsh and spoke like a native (unlike the current bishops of Bangor and St Asaph who are Welsh born). Re domestic talent pool – there’s been a drain of talented Welsh speaking clergy into England including Harri Williams, soon to be Principal of St Stephen’s House. In my opinion leaving a fast sinking ship with its final Archbishop. When I was confirmed in the Church in Wales in the 1980s, the church where I worshipped had a vicar, curate, two lay readers,… Read more »
Dorien isn’t a native Welsh Speaker. He learnt Welsh and speaks it well.
Of course he’s a native Welsh speaker from Abergwili, outside Carmarthen.
It’s interesting that every comment I have read on BBC’s Cymru Fyw (a Welsh language news programme) expresses the hope that the new archbishop speaks Welsh or concern that she doesn’t. While the appointment is widely welcomed, this is a perspective from Welsh language speakers that English speakers will probably miss. In those parts of Wales where Welsh is widely spoken, and in civic and cultural life, it really matters to people that at least some of the bishops can communicate in their language (and, no, the fact that everyone can speak English doesn’t mitigate the desire people have to… Read more »
I think that Mary Stallard at Llandaff speaks Welsh too.
She’s not fluent.
Agreed. You wouldn’t have an Archbishop of Paris who couldn’t speak French would you??
Everyone in France speaks French though, while most people in Wales do not speak Welsh.
It is our national language however, as French is the national language of France
What is a national language? How would you define it? What is the national language of Belgium?
We have 3 … French, Flemish and German.. with English an increasingly 4th unofficial language. Interestingly, post- brexit and other things, chaplains recruited from outside the country must achieve an ‘independent user’ level of one of the official national languages within 18 months of taking up post in order to retain their work permit.
There are three official languages in Belgium – Flemish, French and German.As a native Welsh speaker, I feel it not unreasonable to hope, indeed expect, that the head of the Church in Wales, might have or strive to acquire a measure of proficiency in the language.
But can the Archbishop of Paris speak Basque or Breton?
I don’t know. But he speaks the national language of the country of which he is the senior archbishop
This in no way diminishes your point, but in fact it is the Archbishop of Lyons who is, ex officio, Primate of the Gauls. Paris,like London and Dublin are not the senior bishopricks of their respective countries.
Whenever I hear or read about an Archbishop of Lyon I think of the one who was related to Napoleon Bonaparte, Joseph Fesch. He features in biographies of the Curé d’Ars.
I have just this evening been on a cruise down the Seine with the Archbishop of Paris. It was the concluding conference dinner of the congres of Societas Liturgica. I can confirm that the Archbishop does speak excellent French as he dismissed us with a blessing.
Gwilym Williams (Bishop of Bangor 1957-82 and Archbishop of Wales 1971-92) was born in London, but in a Welsh-speaking nonconformist family. Welsh was the language of home and chapel. The family moved to Caernarfonshire when he was 8. Welsh remained his first language throughout his life (although he gained ‘a first’ in English in Oxford).
For more see my biography, ‘Archbishop Gwilym Owen Williams “G. O.”: His Life and Opinions’ (2017).
Gwilym Williams retired as Archbishop in 1982, rather than ’92,
Thanks, John. Even Homer nods!
Many thanks to James, Anon, Michael H and Ms Henderson for these observations. Although I have attended services in every county within Wales, logistics (i.e., coming over from easternmost Kent) have necessitated that I have seen more of Llandaff, Monmouth and Swansea & Brecon dioceses. On the whole my experience has been of a Church that is hanging on by its fingertips, outside the main urban areas (but also often within them) and suburbs – but in that sense it has not been hugely unlike much of England. A single stipendiary for 14 units would scarcely bat an eyelid these… Read more »
I got cut off, evidently: apologies. The rest of Glanmor Williams’ quote reads “Nor is there any latter-day Elijah to be discerned on the mountain-top, charged with a prophetic charisma which might once more invoke the celestial lightning-flash.” (from the essay, ‘Fire on Cambria’s Altar’ in ‘The Welsh and their Religion’ (1991), at 72).
I am also most grateful to Canon Price for his comments about G. O. Williams.
The Church in Wales, it appears, has not published its attendance figures for some years, although they used to be included in the Annual Report brought to Governing Body. Whether this is due to administrative pressures, or other factors, I don’t know. But some would say that the lack of such statistics does not inspire confidence in the Church’s health.
As William Temple said: “Those that don’t like counting heads generally don’t have many heads to count.’
Where did William Temple say that?
He must have joined Mahatma Gandhi, Albert Einstein and Mae West in that exalted group of universal authors of expedient quotes.
I may be wrong, but I get the impression that the CoE has meticulously avoided appointing Bishops from among those women who campaigned for decades for ordination, that is, the first cohort to be ordained. Certainly, it contained many women of far higher calibre than some of the male bishops we have had to suffer these last 30 years!
Is this a first in the Anglican Communion in being an Archbishop or similar level role appointed whilst living in a legal same sex relationship (civil partnership or marriage)?
Yes, I believe it is.
As ever I am open to correction, but this is a first.
We need to pray for her.
I suspect there will be some very personal things written and said. Everything I know of her is excellent, but I hope she has a lot of personal support – and her partner as well.
I believe that BP Gregory will be invaluable to her with his deep understanding of the Anglican Communion.
Thank you.
It is often said that to rise to any level within an institution whilst carrying the burden of being a member of a minority group, one has to be significantly better and more competent than the rest.
For Cherry Vann to be appointed Archbishop whilst being both a woman and LGBT suggests an amazing level of competence, with the added benefit of personal experience of being an outsider.
This is an amazing appointment, and a credit to Cherry Vann personally, and to those had the wisdom, and courage, to select her.
This is sadly already true. Much personal and nasty comment on social media i am told.
Cherry and I were ordained together and served in Manchester together. She is very able. Since there is no comment on her football leanings, I can tell you that she was the first woman to play for the clergy cricket team in Manchester (there are CT photos of her doing so) and she is a very highly talented musician.
Absolutely Charles – the statement from the Chair of Gafcon is utterly dreadful and some of the social media comments I’ve seen utterly vile. I have a good friend in Manchester who is not what some have taken to calling an unthinking revisionist. Whilst not a traditionalist either, he has serious misgivings about the full acceptance of partnered gay people into all orders of ordained ministry. He has a huge amount of respect for Cherry Vann as a person and as a priest and Archdeacon (as she was when he knew her), though, and was delighted to read of her… Read more »
So how does that work then? Serious misgivings about something he is also delighted about…
I suspect she is also the first person appointed Primate of a province who spent a period in deacon’s orders while the Church worked out whether or not it was willing to ordain women as priests. That speaks volumes about her resilience and faith. I agree too with Philip Groves, we need to pray for her. It’s a hard time to lead a Church.
Whilst I wish the new Archbishop of Wales every success, I cannot hide my disappointment that she is not Welsh speaking. Would any other country countenance appointing someone who was not fluent in their own language. I know many people will argue that the vast majority of people speak English. However, Wales has two languages, of equal status, or so we are led to believe. When it comes to deeply personal matters and milestones, I, and many other members of the Church in Wales, want to feel confident that such occasions can be conducted in Welsh. The previous Bishop of… Read more »
+Cherry already uses liturgical Welsh and has been tireless in promoting the language in Monmouth diocese which is historically seen as the most Anglicised. She’s been very firm on the importance of learning the language for all new full time candidates for ministry at St Padarn’s in her role as ministry bishop. She has been following the Say Something in Welsh course – see this video filmed 4 weeks after she arrived in Monmouth https://www.facebook.com/share/v/1F6CM81W7c/?
Well said Manon. If you had said to me 4 years ago that I would be speaking (okay not very well) a fair amount of Liturgical Welsh i wouldn’t have believed you. But here in St. Woolos Cathedral, Newport (Archbishop Cherry’s seat) Liturgical Welsh is spoken every Sunday Morning for the gathering and the blessing. If we know someone is a Welsh speaker we try to give communion to them in Welsh. Surprisingly i use a little Welsh in my own private devotions and we offer Welsh Language evensong. At ordinations, ecumenical, civic and other services we have readings in… Read more »
Just as a matter of interest how are the Welsh speakers in Wales represented as a proportion of the CofE worshipping community? Are they merely in line with their proportion in the country as a whole (around 28% according to Google), or are they well below or well above that proportion?
I think you mean the CiW worshipping community.
Indeed! Its CinW! have no actual research to back this up but my personal experience is that they largely tend to reflect their communities. I’ve ministered in Gwynedd and Conwy and those parishes reflected their communities. As Chapels are closing in some villages, the Anglican Church is often the only place of worship and so there has been a slight influx of Welsh speakers. Even in areas with traditionally fewer Welsh speakers, Anglican churches are putting on Welsh services on an occasional basis, and for Welsh learners too, so there must be a demand. However where the Welsh chapels remain… Read more »
“As Chapels are closing in some villages” On recent visits to mid-Wales and SW Wales, there were times when I was struggling to find rural communities where chapels had *not* been converted to residential use or left in a state of semi-dereliction, but that much is also true of many former strongholds of nonconformity in England. I agree completely about the Church in Wales being the beneficiary of the collapse of nonconformity, but frankly there are growing tracts of rural Wales, often close to diocesan boundaries (in my experience), where the church has all-too frequently been going the way of… Read more »
The Church in Wales has long been a minority undertaking in Wales, especially in predominantly Welsh-speaking rural areas. In the mid 19th century (1851 census) 80% went to “chapels” of one sort and another. A political, as well as a cultural, distinction.
By now though I think the C in W is the largest denomination, though there are fewer identifying as Christian than any other part of the UK according to the census. The Roman Catholics are next. (I’ve forgotten where I’ve read that). Though it’s difficult to compare exactly as there are different definitions of membership. Sadly the free churches are facing even more decline than the C in W. The stereotype of Wales being nonconformist is no longer true, though it remains an important part of Welsh identity.
What about newer forms of nonconformity – charismatic churches, black churches and similar? These are often touted as loci of growth in England. Anything analogous in Wales?
Quite similar but in pockets (like England) and we also have several large evangelical / charismatic church in cities / towns. There’s some growth in (say) polish language congregations and this is how the Roman Catholic numbers are holding up because of new linguistic communities coming to Wales. Whilst English theological colleges are reporting real decline in ordinand numbers, we’re actually experiencing some growth with more offering for full time ministry now than in recent years. At St Padarn’s we’re almost up to full capacity. Our strategy of encouraging lay and collaborative forms of ministry and enabling ordinands to remain… Read more »
That’s exactly how I see it, hearing what I have about Bishop Cherry from many quarters. The electors have given the CiW the best chance it has of a reset under an experienced guide who acts with integrity. I’m sure that would come as a very welcome (and long overdue) change for many in the CiW.
She at least acknowledges that the CIW is not sustainable, which has been predicted for some time, but her main achievement appears to be to introduce a plan for managed decline in Monmouth at a cost of £3m, a costly self fulfilling prophecy. A familiar story as Scotland, which is one of the reasons why the Alliance is taking a stand against further liberalisation in the CoE.
What is this plan? If it’s Ministry/Misery Areas, these were in train before she was a Bishop and across all of Wales, as recommended (rightly or wrongly) by the Harries report.
To alter a well-used quote, ‘Well, you would say that, wouldn’t you?’ Decline as an inevitable consequence of ‘liberalism’ (which can mean no more than ‘a change in our thinking which I don’t like’) is hopelessly simplistic, and takes no account of a whole host of factors, including major societal changes across Western Europe, the US and elsewhere. Within a half-hour’s drive from here we have an impeccably conservative parish church whose rigorous theological stance would gladden the Alliance’s hearts – and it is struggling. I’ve heard this put down to ‘Satanic opposition,’ and people being ‘scandalised by the Gospel’… Read more »
Do you think that theological stances and their missiological consequences are irrelevant to prospects of church growth or decline? I agree that ‘liberal = decline’ and ‘conservative = growth/survival’ is simplistic and unhelpful. But… I wonder… might it be that adopting a theological stance that in some significant aspects mirrors the values of the non-ecclesial surrounding culture could have two effects. Firstly, the absence of a compelling difference and gift to offer incomers from that culture. And second, a diminution of evangelistic zeal to offer one’s neighbours anything that might convert them. If ‘liberalism’ (on the whole) tends towards universalism… Read more »
I’m sure the theological/missiological question is highly significant, as is the imperative to share the good news, but (on the latter point) Church history is littered with the debris of highly-motivated movements which, in retrospect, we rather wish hadn’t got off the ground: the Inquisition was sincere in its belief that burning heretics would (perhaps) save them from eternal torment, but it’s not currently part of the curriculum of any church growth movement with which I’m acquainted. Commitment and enthusiasm are not always to be applauded indiscriminately. Just a caveat, not a criticism of a valid observation. As to offering… Read more »
There’s always been plenty of auto-metanoia within the conservative christian communities I’ve been part of. Indeed one of the usual critiques of this tradition is its capacity for self-obsession with sin. But maybe I haven’t met the right (or wrong) people. No one in my congregation has a brand new car, and our church doesn’t have a car park!
‘There’s a lot of 25-plate SUV’s in Church car parks, so there’s something ‘interesting’ happening there in terms of theological realignment of the Gospel.‘ …
Leaving aside the statistically reliability of this observation, what exactly do 25-plate SUVs have to do with gospel alignment? Is Jeremy Clarkson considering ordination? And will he be available for the Canterbury job?
It might be considered an indication of wealth, status, and an intention to continue to burn fossil fuels regardless of the impact. These in turn might be thought to have something to with holistic mission (that’s a phrase I learnt recently, so I’m glad of a chance to use it!) — or rather with its opposite.
I agree that conservative evangelical churches are also struggling, but the Alliance is a wider coalition.
Bishop Cherry is not simply a good bishop, but an outstanding one. She has done far more than manage decline, she has challenged and changed an entire diocesan culture. She embraces all, and whilst there are churches in the Monmouth Diocese that are struggling there are also plenty that are flourishing, some of them in areas of desperate almost indescribable urban poverty and others in the rurality of Monmouthshire. Her commitment to the poor, marginalised and isolated is inspirational. She exudes transparency, and is a person deeply rooted in prayer. It’s easy to comment and snipe from afar, but the… Read more »
Thank you for this informed tribute.
I feel proud that when she was an ordinand at Westcott House in the 1980s I was her pastoral tutor. She was a very thoughtful person – and a very good musician.
If I read any more about who speaks what, I fear I will lose the will to live.
I fear you may have been bitterly disappointed.
Anybody know what she says, rather than what language she uses?
I don’t get your point
We often read here of the small size of the Church in Wales and how it compares to the larger English diocese, and other comments in a similar vein. Cherry’s election was a surprise.. not because she was not the best candidate or others were the favourite but rather there seemed such a reasonably good field. There are two bishops..Llandaff and St Davids with a good pastoral record and who have other qualities and the bishop of St Asaph has vast experience as both a canon lawyer and battling through the most torrid times of the Anglican Communion as the… Read more »
Gafcon has spoken https://gafcon.org/communique-updates/archbishop-of-wales-election-shatters-the-communion/
Gafcon may have spoken, but will their predictable righteous outrage impress the Welsh faithful, or offend them.
I don’t imagine ANiE will gain the numbers the Archbishop hopes. Unhappy evangelicals are more likely to join the ” new nonconformity”, Kings Church etc which I gather are quite strong in urban areas. But it will be interesting to see how the new +Canterbury navigates the Anglican Communion and whether the appointment when it is made fragments the Communion further. It is rather difficult to see what exactly the future of the Communion is and what role +Canterbury will have. Any thoughts?
“It is rather difficult to see what exactly the future of the Communion is and what role +Canterbury will have.”
That certainly.
Some tough decisions ahead for CiW clergy and congregations who will struggle with this appointment. Further polarisation within the Primates meeting and unlikely that any of the instruments of communion will have any unifying role. Difficult to track any overall leaning globally given that Australia has elected a conservative Primate. CiW contrasts with the CofE’s lack of progress on LLF. Will be interesting to see how this had landed next month when I move to a benefice with a Welsh parish in an English diocese.
Stephen – Welcome to the Welsh Borders. I believe we will be near neighbours.
Thank you. There is lots to learn as we settle in.
The candidates for the Australian Primacy were all evangelicals, since General Synod is stacked with them. (Sydney ordains lot of deacons and thus increases its numbers in General Synod – which however only meets every four years and which has limited powers.). Our new Primate, the Bishop of Canberra and Goulburn, most think, was the best candidate, a moderate and open evangelical, former head of the Bush Church Aid Society, with a fine woman bishop as his assistant but no newpaper or radio here in Sydney even mentioned the appointment.. Our Australian Church for better or worse is a loose… Read more »
Re Sydney Diocese – Mother Elaine Farmer (a priest from Canberra) occasionally preaches at two churches in Sydney. I was surprised that at St James King Street she gave the priestly blessing at the end of the High Mass recently.
At CCSL (Christ Church St Laurence) Mother Kathryn (ordained priest in Melbourne) isn’t allowed to do this. She ministers full time but as a deacon only which I think is a waste of her talents and status. Last Sunday the regional bishop was at CCSL for confirmation. Stuck out like a sore thumb!
I’ve just done a little mental arithmetic. You must have been 42 when you did that preachment at St James King St to which I referred in an earlier post.
Dreadful, and it comes dangerously close to inciting violence in my view.
More splashing in the shallow end of the Anglican Communion pool, where there is always most noise. These GAFCON primates (who have been at it since 2008) know what they now need to do. Don’t pretend you have anything further to do with the Anglican Communion. Lead your flock (they are not all with you) wherever you see fit, but don’t have the temerity to call me and millions of other faithful Anglicans like me either unorthodox or inauthentic. And while I am on this soapbox, the rest of the Anglican primates need to work out what leadership is relevant for… Read more »
It would of course be convenient if GAFCON were the only objectors. They could then be isolated and be told–as you have done—to pack it in. Gafcon is not the Global South en total and I don’t think they are going anywhere. It is obvious to all that any new Canterbury “will not be running round the world.” That ship, poorly navigated and plotted before by the previous ABC, has sailed. Who would welcome him/her as some kind of ‘Head’? The idea that anyone in the AC thought the new ABC would not be English is obvious in the extreme.… Read more »
The real question is what is an Anglican Communion? I think you mean *the* Anglican Communion. It is an association of 42 self-governing provinces, a global fellowship of churches. It comes alongside what is an ABC? The occupant of the See of Canterbury, in his/her AC role, acts as a focus of unity and fosters the various relationships, theologically and practically. But on the basis that there are divergent views on a number of subjects, the role is pastoral and somewhat nuanced. The Anglican Communion cannot be made to march to the same tune. Remember Windsor. And what is the… Read more »
What is an Anglican Communion that is not in Communion?
What is a de facto leader? And who is said to be led by this person from the shrinking CofE? (see first question)
Thanks for the arrogant dismissal of the vast bulk of what remains of the Anglican Communion. Is this Empire reflex?
So, the deep end is the place where people who use language like “the shallow end” ply their trade.
Back to: what is an Anglican Communion that is not in Communion led by a soi-disant “deep end” in a disintegrating ecclesial unit?
Rinse and repeat.
I have nothing further to add regarding these graceless primates. It’s they who have ceased to be in communion with the Primates’ Meeting and the wider Anglican Communion. It is they who issued the communiqué. It is they who have stated in unequivocal and irrevocable terms that the Anglican Communion is shattered. That being the case there is little that the rest of the provinces can do and certainly few will bend over backwards to accommodate their biblically errant and self-serving positions, an affront to very many in their flocks. They appear to have chosen to walk. As for this… Read more »
is Froghole his real name? I rather assumed it wasn’t.
Froghole is a tiny village near Sevenoaks in Kent. I think the person who uses that pseudonym here has said they live in Kent, so perhaps that is the connection. As it happens I have met them and can verify they are a real person!
Many thanks to you and Dr Butler. I have indeed had the pleasure of meeting you both (at Little Gidding and at Canterbury), and several other TA contributors (in Lincolnshire, Somerset, Warwickshire, etc.). There are several Frogholes: two in Dorset (one near Blandford Forum and one at Cann, by Shaftesbury), one near Mayfield in East Sussex, and one between Edenbridge and Westerham (Crockham Hill) in Kent. I lived at the one in Crockham Hill, which is very close to Chartwell, for a bit over 20 years until 2013, and since 2021 I have lived at St Margaret’s Bay, between Deal… Read more »
It was the connection. Froghole has moved further east.
He has a real name. I have met him. He lives not far from me. I hope he deposits his “archive” somewhere ( Lambeth Library?) .It will be invaluable to future historians.
The deep end might better be termed the dead end, since it has five marks of mission but no actual converts.
While the CofE has spent the last sixty years shrinking and endlessly debating approximations to equal marriage without doing anything much about it, at the shallow end in places like Uganda Christians have spent their time standing up to dictators, being martyred for their faith, and experiencing huge church growth.
It might actually be worth listening to them! But maybe not if it interrupts the serious theological reflection.
What is missing from your comment is the atrocious history of persecution and of human rights violations against sexual minorities in Uganda in which the churches have been complicit. Since your ‘handle’ is the title of a Catholic social teaching encyclical, the first link I’ve attached is from an R.C, source. As of late I’ve been using the ‘handle’ Ruairidh on TA, but I’m quite happy, given Anthony Archer’s stated concern on anonymity, to use my name.
https://www.ncronline.org/opinion/guest-voices/its-time-ugandan-bishops-speak-about-inhumane-anti-lgbtq-laws
Church of Uganda ‘grateful’ as harsh new anti-homosexuality law is approved
https://www.nbcnews.com/nbc-out/out-news/rights-violations-ugandas-lgbtq-community-are-escalating-advocacy-grou-rcna155433
None of the reports that I have seen have mentioned Cherry Vann’s age, which means she will only be in post for about three years before the mandatory retirement age of 70.
Given that some of the possible candidates for Canterbury have been excluded by the chatterati on account of being too near retirement, I wonder if the CNC will now be considering candidates with only a few years to go?
Good point. I was surprised to discover her age: she will be 70 at the end of October 2028. Hopefully that will give her time to “steady the ship”. I wonder which other current bishops will still be in post then?
Hopefully they will all still be in post. But Llandaff and St Davids both should be eligible to succeed ++Cherry, Deo volente, along with whoever is elected to Bangor.
I wonder what will happen to Bishop David Morris by way of further deployment?
Jonathan
Thats a very good question.
the last person to be in this situation was treated very badly indeed!
If the first does not happen, the second is not a likely outcome, the third – a real posibility
Does the CinW have the same mandatory retirement age as the CofE?
https://www.churchinwales.org.uk/en/clergy-and-members/constitution/chapter-viii-retirement
Yes; see https://www.churchinwales.org.uk/en/clergy-and-members/constitution/chapter-viii-retirement/
Marcus Loane was 66 when, as Archbishop of Sydney, he became also Primate of Australia. That was in 1978. I heard him preach in 1992, by which time he was 80. He showed no signs of decline.
I would hope that terms for leaders in the Anglican Communion were limited to 10 years and retirement at 60 or 65 was mandatory. The reliance on a retired list for Parish duties is hugely problematic given the understanding of contemporary culture ,safeguarding and new forms of theological and pastoral care is often lacking. Commissions of enquiry have exposed egregious failings which link to cultural beliefs that are far from contemporary in some leaders. Other retired list prelates and clerics conversely have wisdom compassion and care. Allowing leaders to stay long after their use by date as part of the… Read more »
Thank you for this undermining of my ministry and that of countless others. As a young curate attending a diocesan clergy conference I heard some comments from middle aged diocesan senior staff which wrote off older people. A middle aged cleric sitting next to me exploded at the former ‘You will be old one day!’ Perhaps you’d recommend Simeon and Anna being pensioned off to make way for younger visionary people?
Hi Charles, When the church experiences “old school” leaders who create huge damage to the institution and are unable to be removed the damage percolates through all aspects of the Diocese. Mandatory retirement can in some ways be a way of allowing damage limitation and renewal. For the church to rely on clerics in their 70s and 80s to keep the doors open is sub optimal. The cultural aspects of clericalism and misunderstanding of contemporary safeguarding and secular ethics is often far greater in that cohort. But as I I stated above many over 65 Clerics and leaders have great… Read more »
Am I right in thinking retired clergy seeking permission to officiate need to undergo safeguarding training and renew it every couple of years? I am not suggesting the system is perfect but there does seem to be some provision in place to ensure older clergy are updated on best practice.
Absolutely Simon – and regular renewing of permission to minister in many dioceses. They also have to have a full time minister (ie parish priest) to report to. Does Richie have any evidence that retired clergy are more a safeguarding, or any other, risk? I have no idea what ‘secular ethics’ refers to here – but that is presumably because I am retired? Really rather offensive.
Dear David, Many clerics over 70 have great wisdom compassion and years of vital experience. Yet others are stuck in a mire of clericalism, patriarchal attitudes and can inadvertently create huge pastoral issues especially when mentoring or acting as spiritual directors . There is ample evidence of Bishops Archbishops and senior staff forming factions that became involved in cover up of abuse and bullying. Sadly the age profile of senior leaders often skews to the over 60 cohort. In safeguarding cases surrounding the cover up of criminal behavior it seems that the age cohort is mainly over 60. That said… Read more »
Thank you for responding. You seem to be offering as many positives as negatives about this age group – and are only speaking about men (patriarchy).
There certainly is. I completed my fourth safeguarding course last year in order to maintain my PTO.
Whoever marries the spirit of the age….
It’s ironic that Bishop Gregory Cameron was the staff person at the Anglican Communion Office during the time of struggle over same-sex issues in the Communion, and now has an Archbishop in a same-sex partnership (could be marriage in Canada!). I believe Bishop Cameron does speak a good deal of Welsh.
I think he is less proficient than Mary Stallard, who has ministered in St David’s diocese and, I believe, done some religious broadcasting in Welsh, yet who is described elsewhere on this site as being not fluent. Gregory Cameron is capable of liturgical Welsh, as apparently is Cherry Vann, but I am not at all sure if he could, say, handle a TV interview with S4C. Others may be able to enlighten us about this.
Incidentally, Gregory Cameron received an award from the Ozanne foundation regarding his more recent work on same sex issues.
I seem to recall Bishop Gregory describing himself a dozen or more years ago as a “Welsh learner”. Of course, he may well have learnt a lot in the intervening years.
I do like the idea of “liturgical Welsh” though. I think I can manage that too.
Talking of “liturgical Welsh”, as it says in several volumes of the Welsh prayer book
During my three years in the central Arctic I learned to manage liturgical Inuktitut quite well, and could also translate a sermon (with help from local folks) and preach it, but my conversational Inuktitut was quite limited.
I’m very encouraged by this news.
Congrats to Archbishop Cherry Vann. This looks like a very interesting appointment. Pace the usual ‘The Communion sky is falling’ rhetoric from the usual suspects, I’ve been interested in the comments on TA re: the role of the Welsh language. Esther De Waal has a spiritually engaging consideration of Welsh heritage in, The Celtic Way of Prayer. Her chapter nine, The Saints, talks about what in her opinion sets Celtic saints apart from the great saints of the western church. Like spiritual and cultural innovation, political innovation, which is often present with the former two, can be very exciting.
I believe the SEC has around 20K members and 8K Sunday attendance. How does the CiW compare? As always, thanks to Froghole for a sense of life on the ground. (My mother was a Rhys/Reese from northern Wales and I visited the parish church of her ancestors when I lived in the UK).
As Baptist Trainfan pointed out above, the Church in Wales has stopped publishing its attendance statistics. The most recent statistics I can find online are from 2018 when electoral rolls totalled 42,441 and adult Sunday attendance was 26,110. Both were falling at c.5% per year, so assuming this trend has continued means attendance is now below 20,000.
Cherry Vann has said she is committed to transparency, so it will be interesting to see whether the Church in Wales starts publishing the numbers again.
The profile of the diocese of St Davids produced in 2023 for the Electoral College gave the ‘Average Sunday Attendance’ in 2022 as 2522. (Archdeaconry of St Davids 863, Archdeaconry of Carmarthen 873, and Archdeaconry of Cardigan 786.) My impression is that the figure in St Davids has usually been lower than the figures for Llandaff and St Asaph, but higher than those for the three other dioceses. This would suggest that total attendance in the Church in Wales in 2022 was about 15,000. If the statistics for the diocese of St Davids in 2022 were available for use in… Read more »
Thank you very much. 15,000 in 2022. Now? 8,000 perhaps. People at TA will howl with objections. Froghole has sought to bring reality home. Seriously, two Provinces (SEC and CiW) about the size of a tiny diocese in many Provinces. Throw in ACiC. 25,000 total, being generous. Then the CofE — smaller than the Catholic Church in England and a growing Islam reality on the ground. Small provinces are fine. Once all were such. But outsized proportionality is obvious. A “Mercator Projection” in genuine proportion in the Anglican Communion is much to be desired. “Numbers, they are irrelevant.” We hear… Read more »
What would be your recipe for reversing decline Christopher? It would be very instructive to know.
Clearly the ACNA is in much disarray at present and not fairing any better that TEC in terms of actually growing larger numbers of Christians.
Please do share your wisdom.
Mr Godsall, It is always hard to know your intent via such an arch countenance. What are you asking? And why are you asking it? Did you want something on the topic of the Anglican Communion and its future?
I am a priest in the Diocese of Central Florida (TEC). I worship in the Catholic Church in France. I spent 15 years in AC affairs.
“Please do share your wisdom” — sounds more like a taunt from an angry person. Blessings.
Not in the least angry Christopher. It’s a genuine and quite simple question. You have identified decline in various churches within the Anglican Communion. Given your curriculum vitae – which you are always keen to share! – I am most interested to know what your proposals are for reversing the decline you so rightly identify. Obvious question. Perhaps you don’t have any answers, but a simple ‘I don’t know’ will do.
“Given your curriculum vitae – which you are always keen to share!”
There you go again.
The mask is always dropping.
Christopher I think we all know here how much you like to tell us about your qualifications or your latest publications. You don’t exactly hide that part of yourself! And I don’t think you are really one to talk about masks. You were here under your real name but went off in anger, and appeared back under your current pseudonym. But it wasn’t long before that mask slipped lol Only a few weeks ago you said, in anger, you were departing and wouldn’t comment again. So – masks are clearly something dear to your heart! But I see you can’t… Read more »
If you need a friend to talk to I’m sure there is a local pub down the road.
Christopher it is one the hardest tasks to work at connecting with those with whom we differ. And it is one of the hardest tasks to retain a positive approach. But it is so important.
I would enjoy meeting with you in the pub and discovering your proposals for building up the body of Christ together, even when we differ so much in our understanding and approach.
It is all too easy to point decline. And as you have shown here, it is much more difficult to propose ways to reverse such decline.
If you need a friend to talk to I’m sure there is a local pub down the road.
I think a sociologist of religion might have some helpful and useful things to say as to why religion is growing in some parts of the world and shrinking in others.
Indeed they would. My point was more about the way the Anglican Communion understands its present demographic identity. And how best to allow that present identity to guide its mission and life. Trust in the office of Canterbury is at an all time low. This isn’t personal. It is simply the case that a divided and shrinking province, with its unique establishment polity, no longer has a narrative logic to offset whatever might have been its claim to represent historical anglicanism ‘down the ages.’ Even within said province, the idea of Augustine of Canterbury representing claims to catholic continuity are… Read more »
I think the current state of the ACNA rather suggests that problems are not just with a progressive view of liberal Christianity. One of their key dioceses, South Carolina, has shrunk by about 25% in terms of baptised members over the last ten years. And ASA is down to about 8,000. Decline is not just a liberal phenomenon.
M Percy (erratum).
For what it’s worth, and further to Canon William Price’s enlightening figures above (which I’ve not seen before), I did a little digging last year to provide one of my journalist/researcher friends with some data on numbers of priests, hierarchy and weekly attendances in the CiW, which I’ve reproduced in the table below, along with a note of some rough comparisons with the RC Church in Wales. William’s estimate of 15000 weekly CiW attendances gives a percentage of 0.482% of the total population of Wales (3,107,500). RC attendances amount to 1.15% of the population of Wales without allowing for any… Read more »
As a follow-on from my comment with details of CiW statistics, I’ve done a little more delving and, since the Diocese of Oxford has been previously mentioned on this site as being considerably bigger in many senses than CiW, I found the following statistics from that diocese, published in July this year, so very up-to-date. They have over 1000 stipendiary clergy (and also 300 licensed lay ministers) serving their regular 52000 worshippers. In terms of hierarchy, the diocese has one Diocesan Bishop, with three suffragan bishops and four archdeacons. On that evidence alone, I cannot see how anyone could possibly… Read more »
In my chapter in The New History of the Church in Wales I gave the average Sunday attendance in the Church in Wales in 2017 as 33,265. (That seems a bit high as I read it now, but I must have thought it correct when I wrote.) In the same year Mass attendance in the Roman Catholic Church in Wales was 25,107. (That figure does not include the 9 churches in Herefordshire.) The Roman Catholic Church does not conceal statistics, and in 2023 Mass attendance was 17,909 in Wales (with an additional 1,084 in the Herefordshire part of the then… Read more »
Thank you. I’m sure someone knows the algorithm of church decline. At a certain point it is hard to arrest much less turn around.
One of the problems with church attendance statistics is the irregularity of church attendance among those who nevertheless regard themselves as part of the church . Some are more or less present Sunday by Sunday, others are monthly, others are less frequent, some are Festivals only and so on. It is very difficult to ascertain the extent and strength of a Church that isn’t a sect and which accepts degrees of commitment. Even more difficult in the Established parochial C of E which doesn’t really “do” membership” as some other churches do
As a bishop, did she/does she have to swear to celibacy in her civil partnership?
[Trying to share this news across The Pond, and I don’t want to make an error in reporting!]
No.
As a respondent here has referred to South Carolina. The ADOSC has over 16,000 baptized members, spread across the eastern and coastal areas of South Carolina, according to the diocese’s website. The diocese reported an average Sunday attendance of 8,858, which is a 13.49% increase from the previous year. This growth is part of a larger trend of rebounding attendance across the ACNA following the COVID-19 pandemic. The Diocese of South Carolina, which was part of The Episcopal Church, saw a significant decline in attendance following a split in 2012, with many congregations joining the (ACNA). The Episcopal Diocese of South Carolina… Read more »
To echo an earlier response to one of your posts, what should those who are in the fading church do? I’m a member of the SEC and we have never been a vast church. We are diminishing, as are other churches. But I fear that going full on in imitation of apparently successful number gatherers would shake out others. I find your posts interesting as a chronicle of events as you see them but of no help in discerning what the fading church should or could do. You seem to find us delusional but offer no clear alternative or remedy.… Read more »
SEC has always been a small church but it has a distinctive history, liturgical tradition and spirituality and I’m sure there are charges that are doing their best. ( Presumably teaching at St Andrews AP was a member ?).All any of us can do in the unpropitious circumstances we find ourselves in in the the UK is to witness to our faith and being faithful trusting in the faithfulness of God.There may be some shoots of revival here and there ( not least as so much else that is on offer is hardly nourishing) but does anyone think we are… Read more »
Short answer, yes. SEC is different as you say, and has a memory of facing real discrimination. Being small and (so far) resilient is part of our identity. Witness and faithfulness, being there, all matter. And that is where Halik starts. I’m also intrigued by how many people in both of the SEC congregations I belong to have migrated from other denominations. Something seems to be working.
I suspect it is having a distinctive sacramental / liturgical spirituality in a country where you have Kirk on one side and the RC Church on the other perhaps, though I suppose there is some of the older nonconformity and now rather more of the newer type of nonconformity. You have the advantage which comes with being small in having a sense of identity that is much weaker in the C of E where diversity is so much greater. I hope things hold up. New bishop of Edinburgh soon I gather
Not that soon. +John leaves us this month. The process of finding a successor is underway. Outcome expected in February 26.
Perry, I would agree (also with alijr) that the SEC has an identity of being small and distinctive that is part and parcel of the history within which it exists. I was licensed in the SEC for 9 years and traveled around doing supply. I suspect the main question is the same as in other contexts. By in large, in small communities (in my case, in Fife) you see aging and shrinking congregations and it is hard to see a future without younger people and baptisms/confirmations. It is like caring for an aging relative or loved one. St Andrews (St… Read more »
True. I suspect it will remain niche and no doubt in places simply fade away. But as aljbri says what it has to offer attracts those from elsewhere and nothing. ( Like TEC?) . When I became a DDO in 1996 I realised ordinands were no longer like me socialised in the C of E since birth via choir/ serving etc . Most ordinands were older and from elsewhere or recently converted. I think over the coming years even the C of E may benefit from people coming from Pentecostal/ v cons evangelical fellowships looking for something sacramental and less… Read more »
Having experience of TEC (6 ordained clergy in 3 generations of my family), I wouldn’t compare it with the SEC. But this has chiefly to do with the aforementioned denominational smorgasbord in the New World of US religious culture. There was once a treatment of TEC in the heyday of protestantism in the US, “The Power of Their Glory.” Such was the cultural footprint in the day. Wealth and Influence. The SEC never had that same profile (thank God, one might say). The TEC of today is a small option on a big option board running from the many tribes… Read more »
Thank you so much aljbri for your very helpful response.
I too have found Tomas Halik’s analysis of what is going on in Western Christianity extremely helpful and perceptive. I think his suggestions of where we go next are extremely helpful
Sorry to be slow to respond. I did not see this addressed to me. Apologies. I did respond to Perry Butler’s response to you, re the years I was in the SEC. Find you delusional? Who is “you”? It would not occur to me to think the challenge for the SEC is the same as in other provinces. The SEC is unique in many ways, given the presence of the Kirk and a sizable RCC. TEC is a small entity on a vast map of denominational choices in a very big country. CiW has its own unique history, different in… Read more »
Professor Tomas Halik – The afternoon of Christianity. A book that has been mentioned here a number of times and is a very profound read. His work is very helpful indeed, not just in that book but in others as well.
Enjoy! Perhaps he can be of help to you and others.
The official numbers for Baptized Membership in ADSC from ADSC and ACNA:
2013 – 23,181
2014 – 22,953
2015 – 22,149
2016 – 21,953
2017 – 20,602
2018 – 20,763
2019 – 20,195
2020 – 19,597
2021 – 19,712
2022 – 18,130
2023 – 17,440
A decline of 25%
ASA numbers as follows
2013 – 9,292
2014 – 9,325
2015 – 9,085
2016 – 9,014
2017 – 8,905
2018 – 8,875
2019 – 8,980
2020 – 8,215
2021 – 5,379
2022 – 8,353
2023 – 7,898
A decline of 25% — because the Episcopal Diocese was given only that small percentage by the Supreme Court of SC. It is its own entity.
“The Episcopal Diocese of South Carolina had an average Sunday attendance of 12,371 before the split but by 2019, it had fallen to 2,809.”
Important to note that ACNA and the ADOSC are not part of the Anglican Communion at all.
You were concerned to bring them into the context of comments about declining provinces of the Anglican Communion (CiW, SEC, ACoC, TEC) and the role of the ABC. Seemed odd and off topic.
Not at all. I was keen to bring them in to your context of a progressive view of liberal Christianity. Conservative churches, like the ACNA are declining also and clearly have particular problems about integrity at thr moment. A number of investigations are on going.
Bless their cotton socks!
Don’t the leaders of ‘Gafcon’ know that the Church in Wales is not under the primacy of Canterbury.