Thinking Anglicans

Ely CNC fails to nominate

Updated to add two links below the Archbishop’s statement

The Ely CNC failed to nominate a bishop at its meeting last week. Details are in the Archbishop of Canterbury’s statement copied below. Readers may recall that the Carlisle CNC similarly failed to nominate a new bishop when it met last December.

Statement on Crown Nominations Commission process for next Bishop of Ely

15/07/2024

Very sadly, at the conclusion of a lengthy process of discernment, culminating in two days of interviews on 11 and 12 July, the Crown Nominations Commission considering the nomination of the next Bishop of Ely has not been able reach the level of consensus required to nominate a new Diocesan Bishop.

Over the course of the next months, the Crown Nominations Commission will need to reflect, and make a decision about which stage it wishes to re-commence the discernment process. This is not likely to be before the Spring of 2025. Together with the Archbishop of York and others, there will also need to be a period of reflection on the implications of this decision on the Church of England more generally.

I will be speaking with Bishop Dagmar Winter, the Bishop of Huntingdon, in order to understand from her the best way of supporting the Diocese of Ely and her episcopal ministry in the coming months.

Please continue to hold the Diocese of Ely and the discernment of the Crown Nominations Commission in your prayers.

Background information

A Crown Nominations Commission (CNC) considers vacancies in Diocesan Bishoprics in the Provinces of Canterbury and York, and candidates for appointments to them.

Under the Standing Orders of the General Synod, a nomination cannot be made to the Crown to fill a vacant see unless it has received the support of at least two-thirds of the total number of the voting members of the Commission (10 out of 14) in a secret ballot.

The voting members of the Crown Nominations Commission for a vacant see are the two Archbishops (or a Diocesan Bishop acting on their behalf), 6 members elected from the Vacancy in See Committee of the Diocese and 6 ‘Central Members’ elected from the General Synod. The Archbishops’ Secretary for Appointments and the Prime Minister’s Appointments Secretary are non-voting members of the Commission.


Church Times Questions asked after Crown Nominations Commission fails to agree next Bishop of Ely

Diocese of Ely An update on the next Bishop of Ely

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Fr Dean
Fr Dean
4 months ago

I suppose neither Carlisle nor Ely are cosy billets. Carlisle is known to be on the bones of its backside and Ely has Cambridge with an eclectic mix of college chapels and churches; but the rest of the diocese is not too different from Carlisle.

Gordon
Gordon
Reply to  Fr Dean
4 months ago

College chapels are peculiars, and have little to do with the diocese. Given how wealthy Cambridgeshire is, I would be surprised if the problem with Ely was money.

Andrew Kleissner
Andrew Kleissner
Reply to  Fr Dean
4 months ago

Much flatter, though!

Jane Charman
Jane Charman
Reply to  Fr Dean
4 months ago

As a matter of fact Carlisle doesn’t have the financial problems that many dioceses face as it lives modestly and plans prudently. Its greatest challenge is persuading stipendiary clergy to imagine ministry beyond London and the South East. However the issue in this case is not the perceived plumminess of the two Sees but the inevitable outworking of the church pressing ahead with change for which there is not yet a solid enough consensus. The wafer thin votes on LLF in Synod and determination not to wait for the salutary two thirds majority before forging ahead ought to ring alarm… Read more »

David Runcorn
David Runcorn
Reply to  Jane Charman
4 months ago

Jane. Greetings. I am not sure this fully summarises what is going on. Over the last few decades the traditional co-ordinating agencies for evangelicals in the CofE have been steadily taken over by conservatives. They introduced a change in the Basis of Faith to require the belief that marriage is between a man and a women. This summarily exiled a significant number of long term Anglican Evangelicals. There has effectively been a power grab by agencies like CEEC who have very large budgets and resources and have worked very effectively at filling vacancies when they come – including CNC. But… Read more »

Susannah Clark
Reply to  David Runcorn
4 months ago

Indeed. Honesty and clarity – transparency – is really important. We’ve seen this over women’s ministry, and some churches not being up front about their position, so people get drawn in and tithe before they find out what the leaders actually think. I do wonder if some of the alleged 2000 priests signed up for CEEC have been open and transparent with their parish communities? Do they all agree? CEEC in March 2023 said they would publish a list of supporters of their Declaration – https://declaration.ceec.info – and said “In due course we will publicly issue the names of supporters”. That was 16… Read more »

Adrian Youings
Adrian Youings
Reply to  Susannah Clark
4 months ago

2000 haven’t signed up to CEEC. 2000 clergy have signed up to The Alliance that gathers from beyond the CEEC constituency- it includes New Wine, HTB network, Trad catholics etc

Simon Eyre
Simon Eyre
Reply to  David Runcorn
4 months ago

Hi David
The pairs of Central CNC members were elected by Lay and Clergy General Synod members at York either 1 or 2 years ago so they were largely elected by the same group of laity and clergy as have just voted in the LLF debates. Hopefully the CNC members were elected on their merits and not on party lines. I honestly dont think that it was a power grab by CEEC but a genuine democratic process.

T Pott
T Pott
Reply to  Simon Eyre
4 months ago

In the recent Parliamentary General Election I suspect few MPs were elected on their merits ahead of their party. Indeed, appointment of a bishop is, inevitably, now as much about giving someone a vote in the HoB as anything else. This will eventally filter down to PCC elections.

Stephen Griffiths
Stephen Griffiths
Reply to  David Runcorn
4 months ago

They introduced a change in the Basis of Faith to require the belief that marriage is between a man and a women. This summarily exiled a significant number of long term Anglican Evangelicals.

So they are stating Canon B30 in their Basis of Faith, this seems fairly mainstream.

David Runcorn
David Runcorn
Reply to  Stephen Griffiths
4 months ago

It is entirely novel actually. They are adding a statement about marriage to the historic creeds that nowhere mentions them. Not only that – it is now treated as the defining issue of belief. Really? And who gets to add bits to the core doctrines of the church anyway?

Simon Dawson
Simon Dawson
Reply to  David Runcorn
4 months ago

David, would you be so kind as to provide a link to the complete “Basis of Faith” document. I would be interested to see what is, or is not, included.

Thank you.

Susannah Clark
Reply to  Simon Dawson
4 months ago

If I may assist: here.

Scroll down to the foot of the page to see the ‘Additional Declarations’.

Simon Dawson
Simon Dawson
Reply to  Susannah Clark
4 months ago

Thanks. I was curious to see how they would require absolute adhesion to the “between one man and one woman” bit of canon B30 but give themselves a bit of flexibility in the same canon’s “for life”.

I give then credit. It’s a masterpiece of careful wording.

Kate Keates
Kate Keates
Reply to  Susannah Clark
4 months ago

Going wider than this thread, their statement that marriage is the proper basis for family means that they appear to be against adoption by same sex couples and any couples or individuals who are not married. So, for instance, this wording would suggest a single aunt shouldn’t adopt orphaned children of her sibling. I really don’t like it. It’s trying to take society back to the 1959s.

Last edited 4 months ago by Kate Keates
Stephen Griffiths
Stephen Griffiths
Reply to  David Runcorn
4 months ago

Evangelicalism within the CofE has always morphed in directions and produced new groupings, to accommodate new trends and emphases in teaching and practice. A CofE evangelical group referencing CofE doctrine in its constitution still seems fairly unremarkable in the context of current debates. There are lots of other clubs. I suppose the LLF process has made this a defining issue of belief, particularly for clergy – all of whom have to now make a choice.

Jim
Jim
Reply to  Stephen Griffiths
4 months ago

“Lifelong fidelity in marriage” – does that mean the CEEC does not believe in divorce under *any* circumstances?

Kate Keates
Kate Keates
Reply to  Jim
4 months ago

I don’t see that as particularly surprising. Personally that’s what I believe. (The difference between CEEC and I is that I don’t believe it is something which should be imposed on others – everyone needs to make a free choice without external pressure and complete acceptance of whatever decision to which they come.)

Stephen Griffiths
Stephen Griffiths
Reply to  Jim
4 months ago

Not sure. I think they are just stating what the doctrine and liturgy of the CofE says. ‘We call for a renewed commitment to lifelong fidelity in marriage’

Simon Dawson
Simon Dawson
Reply to  Stephen Griffiths
4 months ago

But Stephen, if lifelong fidelity in marriage is what doctrine and liturgy calls for, why are the Conservative groupings not appointing overseers as a bastion against those bishops who agreed to the modifications to the canon about a decade ago, and even as a bastion against those conservative bishops who are involved in re-marriage. This is our constant question and complaint. Not that same sex marriage or re-marriage after divorce are against traditional teaching. They both are. Both are in contravention of the same canon. And so if both were protested against equally that would make sense. We could understand… Read more »

Last edited 4 months ago by Simon Dawson
Stephen Griffiths
Stephen Griffiths
Reply to  Simon Dawson
4 months ago

I think the recent General Synod debates capture the conservative reasoning on this. It’s about the difference between first order (PLF) and second order (divorce and remarriage) issues. They’ll cooperate over second order differences (divorce/remarriage/ordination of women) but not first order issues. The question is not so much ‘is it a first order issue?’ but ‘will the CofE respect that they believe it’s a first order issue and make appropriate provision?’ This would mirror the way that enabling PLF respects that it is a first order issue of justice and theology for others. I believe the debates are now behind… Read more »

Simon Dawson
Simon Dawson
Reply to  Stephen Griffiths
4 months ago

Stephen, thank you for responding with clarity. That is helpful.

That leads to that obvious follow up question; on what basis is it decided that one issue is second order and one first order. Where is that judgement evidenced, in scripture or elsewhere?

Is it sufficient just to say it is because we say it is?

If anything, it could be argued that divorce should be the first order as there is gospel evidence of Jesus teaching against it, yet no evidence of any teaching by Jesus on same sex issues.

With best wishes.

Stephen Griffiths
Stephen Griffiths
Reply to  Simon Dawson
4 months ago

For an evangelical approach to divorce, remarriage and same sex relationships this might help https://www.psephizo.com/sexuality-2/is-there-an-analogy-between-divorce-and-remarriage-and-same-sex-marriage/ I think it is about remarriage after divorce still tending towards the biblical vision for marriage. Regarding first and second order issues, the LLF workbook touches on issues where ‘agree to disagree’ doesn’t work on p305 where it traces NT examples of separation within the church over issues which didn’t make it into the creed, but were seen as breaches of Christian teaching and behaviour. Who decided? The apostles. Is LLF/PLF in the same category. For some, yes. I don’t think I can add much… Read more »

Simon Dawson
Simon Dawson
Reply to  Stephen Griffiths
4 months ago

Stephen, thank you for responding.

It did not give the answer to the question I was asking, but perhaps there is no answer.

But thanks for trying.

Jane Charman
Jane Charman
Reply to  David Runcorn
4 months ago

David, yes, I recognise the dynamic you’re describing and it’s not a new one. Liberals, in the belief that all sensible and right thinking people must share their views, have historically not exerted themselves much when it come to elections. Conservatives, aware that their position is not the natural default, have worked harder at getting into positions of influence. What could be done about this or even what should be resented about it is less clear. In the context of Church Representation Rules everybody has the same opportunity to make their voice heard and their opinion count if they are… Read more »

Bryan Y
Bryan Y
Reply to  Jane Charman
4 months ago

Is this analysis really right? Doesn’t the voting in the HoB suggest that those of a more liberal leaning have more successfully “exerted” themselves into positions of influence?

Ian Paul
Reply to  David Runcorn
4 months ago

David R, this has not been a ‘power grab’ It has been affirming what all evangelicals have always believed. CEEC are highly representative, but we do not have a ‘large budget and resources’. That really is your paranoia speaking there. Those signed up to the Alliance lead churches which account for more than a third of congregation numbers in the C of E, and over half the children and young people. That looks pretty representative to me.

Graham Watts
Graham Watts
Reply to  Ian Paul
4 months ago

Except for at the foot of the letter of 26 June following the signatories it states; ‘All signatories are leaders of networks/organisations but are signing in their personal capacities, recognising they cannot claim to speak for everyone that they lead.’ So this would be stretching the point to say that this is ‘affirming what all evangelicals have always believed’ as you just can’t possibly know. Nor the suggestion of the support of a third of the congregation numbers of the C of E. Further, I would suggest that the children and young people that you point to are largely ignorant… Read more »

Sussex Reader
Sussex Reader
Reply to  Jane Charman
4 months ago

I have a friend who moved from the South East to minister to a parish near Carlisle. She reckoned she shrank several sizes because of the prevailing climate.

derek hurton
derek hurton
Reply to  Sussex Reader
4 months ago

aye, I’ve been in Carlisle nigh on 20 years and I’m struggling to make 10 stone dripping wet… perhaps we should make more of the apparent weight loss potential in our adverts.

Janet Fife
Janet Fife
Reply to  derek hurton
4 months ago

I once was part of a 10-day mission in Carlisle diocese. The Cumbrian hospitality was so lavish that we all gained weight.

Lister Tonge
Lister Tonge
Reply to  Jane Charman
4 months ago

‘At all costs’ is the antithesis of discernment.

EagletP
EagletP
Reply to  Fr Dean
4 months ago

Yes indeed – very much a North-South divide in Ely Diocese. The Fenland towns like Wisbech, March and Littleport are very different from Cambridge and its satellites.

derek hurton
derek hurton
Reply to  Fr Dean
4 months ago

I would love to find out by whom ‘Carlisle is known to be on the bones of its backside’…
… as far as I ‘know’ and I think I’m qualified to judge) it hasn’t run a budget deficit in 18 years, including thru the pandemic.

Paul Hutchinson
Paul Hutchinson
Reply to  derek hurton
4 months ago

Perceptions from afar can be very strange, Derek. Some of us in Ely Diocese might be capable of a much more nuanced comparison!

Peter Kettle
Peter Kettle
4 months ago

Who is the ‘I’ at the beginning of the third paragraph?

Simon Kershaw
Reply to  Peter Kettle
4 months ago

It is a statement from the Archbishop of Canterbury, Chair of the CNC for Ely.

Kate Keates
Kate Keates
4 months ago

“Together with the Archbishop of York and others, there will also need to be a period of reflection on the implications of this decision on the Church of England more generally.”

That sentence suggests to me that this is more than a local issue. My theory is that the deadlock in the CNC reflects the deadlock in Synod, indeed in the Church as a whole, between progressive and traditional parties.

Sarah Brush
Sarah Brush
4 months ago

I wonder if this was an issue of some members of the CNC not being willing to appoint a woman.

Borderman
Borderman
Reply to  Sarah Brush
4 months ago

Rumour has it a prominent female evangelical Bishop was put forward by central members of the CNC for Carlisle. The local representatives were not keen as they wanted someone who was less divisive and prominent when it comes to current ‘hot potatoes’.

Tim Evans
Tim Evans
Reply to  Borderman
4 months ago

Carlisle, apart from a very small number of parishes of a strong evangelical or catholic tradition, is overwhelmingly small rural parishes and small market towns. It needs a bishop who understands fairly traditional Church of England life and the mix of farming tourism and incoming retirees. My guess is that the sound and fury of General Synod largely passes them by. Low church in Carlisle usually doesn’t mean evangelical but unfussy and traditional.

derek hurton
derek hurton
Reply to  Borderman
4 months ago

nay lad that rumour’s well off the mark … it’s common knowledge in the diocese that none of the candidates were appointable on grounds that they couldn’t tell the difference between a Herdwick and a North Country Mule, or pronounce Torpenhow properly.

Tim Evans
Tim Evans
Reply to  derek hurton
4 months ago

Spot on! Or the correct pronunciation of Aspatria. Let’s get our priorities right.

Paul
Paul
4 months ago

Isn’t this just an expression of how divided we are as a church?

Presumably that is why Welby says “there will also need to be a period of reflection on the implications of this decision on the Church of England more generally.”

If we repeatedly can’t find a candidate who can hold the confidence of 10 out of 14 members of a CNC then we are in significant difficulties.

Ian Paul
Reply to  Paul
4 months ago

Spot on.

Martin
Martin
4 months ago

Other Dioceses are vacant or upcoming!!!!

Perry Butler
Perry Butler
4 months ago

Are the names known of the Central CNC members who were involved in this case? Will they be the same next time?

David Lamming
David Lamming
Reply to  Perry Butler
4 months ago

Yes, the names of members of all CNCs since 2017 are available on a pdf on the C of E website: https://www.churchofengland.org/sites/default/files/2024-02/cnc-membership-since-2017.pdf This was the membership of the Ely CNC: The Most Revd and Rt Hon Justin Welby* The Most Revd and Rt Hon Stephen Cottrell The Right Revd Martin Seeley (standing in for The Archbishop of Canterbury at the shortlisting meeting) Ms Christina Baron The Revd Canon James Blandford-Baker Miss Debbie Buggs Canon Dr Felicity Cooke The Revd Canon Andrew Cornes The Revd Canon Sarah Gower The Ven Dr Alex Hughes Canon Simon Kershaw The Revd Esther Prior Mr… Read more »

Paul
Paul
Reply to  David Lamming
4 months ago

One can see the potential for difficulty in finding a shared vision.

One editor of Thinking Anglicans (Simon Kershaw), two contributors to Via Media News (Jo Stobart and Christina Baron), two archbishops who publicly want to embrace PLF, one bishop who has said he is disappointed that the church of England does not offer same-sex marriage.

And two people who say that PLF would be a change in doctrine (Andrew Cornes and Debbie Buggs).

Tim Chesterton
Reply to  Paul
4 months ago

I note how in your mind ‘finding a shared vision’ equals ‘agreeing on the issue of same-sex blessings/marriage.’

Like, that’s the central issue facing the world today (not, for instance, violence and war, or racism, or economic inequality, or climate change, or the fact that the western church seems to have largely lost its confidence in the power of the gospel to draw people to God).

Helen King
Helen King
Reply to  Paul
4 months ago

I’m amused that ‘contributor to Via Media News’ is a category. +Philip North has also contributed to Via Media News…

Paul Hutchinson
Paul Hutchinson
Reply to  David Lamming
4 months ago

David, I believe your list omits one of the Ely Diocesan lay reps, Christopher Townsend (also a GS member).

David Lamming
David Lamming
Reply to  Paul Hutchinson
4 months ago

Paul,

Thank you. You are right. I think it was an error in ‘cutting and pasting’ from the CofE pdf file to which I gave the link reference. Mr Christopher Townsend was, indeed, one of the six diocesan reps on the Ely CNC. My apologies to him and to TA readers.

Perry Butler
Perry Butler
Reply to  David Lamming
4 months ago

Clive Scowen is also a conservative. It does seem that a CNC so constituted was going to find consensus difficult. As it seems likely Ely will be without a diocesan until 2026. What a pity for the church people of Ely! Luckily they have an admirable suffragan.

Susannah Clark
4 months ago

I should be interested in Anthony Archer’s take on this situation, as he sometimes posts here, and has a lot of experience in this area. He previously pointed out that he thought “8 out of the 12 elected to the CNC are broadly conservative. That could have serious implications for the future shape of the House of Bishops… forget any candidates who might be thought to be revisionist. Think US Supreme Court. As to Canterbury (which will come up during the next CNC quinquennium), the new standing orders will make for a most difficult commission.” This problem should not be… Read more »

Adrian Clarke
Adrian Clarke
Reply to  Susannah Clark
4 months ago

Work for who exactly? When processes are circumvented trust breaks down. I wouldn’t be surprised if the Archbishop steps down within a year. He is increasingly presiding over deadlock. Management is one thing, but this situation requires leadership and he is not leading. Perhaps this is something he will reflect on.

Mitch McLean
Mitch McLean
Reply to  Susannah Clark
4 months ago

The point of having two thirds agreement on bishops and doctrinal change is that ordinaries and the doctrines of the church have to be able to function for the whole church. The fact that we are so divided as to not be able to live with the same ordinaries or doctrines means that we need to seriously consider structural reorganisation so that traditionalists and progressives are able to have different ordinaries and different doctrines (regarding LLF) while somehow being in the Church of England. Failure to do this will just lead to more dysfunction.

Pat ONeill
Pat ONeill
Reply to  Mitch McLean
4 months ago

I’m sorry, but religious organizations with different ordinaries and doctrines are, by definition, different churches. What defines the difference between the Anglican and Methodist denominations other than their ecclesiology and doctrine, for instance?

David James
David James
Reply to  Pat ONeill
4 months ago

I’ve often wondered that. I used to think that the defining difference was that Methodists didn’t like Anglicans very much, but nowadays it seems to be the case that a lot of Anglicans don’t like Anglicans very much either.

Mitch McLean
Mitch McLean
Reply to  Pat ONeill
4 months ago

Exactly. The Church of England is becoming two distinct churches in a trenchcoat.

T Pott
T Pott
Reply to  Pat ONeill
4 months ago

Originally, their style of worship.

Paul
Paul
Reply to  Susannah Clark
4 months ago

It’s not an anomaly that major decisions can’t pass by 50.01%. In 1179 the Third Lateran Council brought in the requirement for popes to be elected by a minimum of a two-thirds of cardinals “because through wicked and reckless ambition the church has often suffered serious division”. (Canon 1) It remains a normal situation in many legislatures and some company boards that the most major decisions require a super majority: it “encourages organizations to find consensus and collaborate in good faith”. Robert’s Rules of Order lays out a number of scenarios in which a two-thirds majority is considered more appropriate… Read more »

Last edited 4 months ago by Paul
David Runcorn
David Runcorn
Reply to  Paul
4 months ago

Some agreed voting threshold is one thing. But there are other factors at play in the context here. One is that if synod is to be the place where we seek and discern the mind of Christ for the church it is important that it is genuinely representative of the Church of England. This has never been the case. The most recent evidence of this was the results of the survey at the end of the LLF process. It was very clear that the church as a whole was far more progressive in its views than synod. The other issue… Read more »

Last edited 4 months ago by Simon Sarmiento
Susanna (no ‘h’)
Susanna (no ‘h’)
Reply to  David Runcorn
4 months ago

How painful this all is .The Circumlocution Office is in full swing.
Maybe a very simple rule change could help? If no agreement could be reached by the CNC upon an acceptable candidate then after one year of the See being unfilled tenure would automatically pass to the Suffragan.
This might go down very well in Ely…..

Ian Paul
Reply to  David Runcorn
4 months ago

David, you are quite right that Synod is not representative—but not in the way you suppose. Evangelical clergy consistently lead larger churches than others, but all clergy still have the same vote. Historically, evangelicals have had little interest in the central structures of the Church, and so are also under-represented as lay members of deanery and diocesan Synods, and therefore of General Synod as well.

Sam Jones
Sam Jones
Reply to  Susannah Clark
4 months ago

If Anthony Archer’s comment above that 8 out of the 12 CNC members are conservative is true then it should have been possible to reach an agreement on a conservative candidate with the support of the 2 Archbishops. This implies that either or both Archbishops did not vote for a conservative candidate or that the conservative CNC members were divided.

Nick Becket
Nick Becket
Reply to  Sam Jones
4 months ago

8 out of the 12 CNC members are conservative” – the 12 central members are elected as 6 pairs. One of each pair sits for a given vacancy. So on any particular vacancy, assuming this analysis is correct, then 4 of the central 6 are conservative. Then there’s the diocesan 6 whose stance will reflect the diocesan vacancy-in-see committee. Plus the two archbishops.

Anthony Archer
Anthony Archer
Reply to  Sam Jones
4 months ago

No, the General Synod elected 12 central members in pairs – i.e. 6 x 2. Each pair decides who will serve on each CNC. My analysis (widely shared) is that four pairs are conservative. See my post below. Each CNC (except for Canterbury and York) has six central members and six diocesan members, plus (usually) the two archbishops.

Perry Butler
Perry Butler
Reply to  Anthony Archer
4 months ago

But does conservative in this context mean that the person is not prepared in any circumstances to vote for a woman candidate or one that supports PLF? If so this could well mean they are at odds with the diocesan reps who may be of one mind. Which seems to me an intolerable situation.

Anthony Archer
Anthony Archer
Reply to  Perry Butler
4 months ago

Yes. It’s not quite so binary of course, but that is what seems to be currently happening on CNCs.

Rosalind R
Rosalind R
Reply to  Perry Butler
4 months ago

And at what point could this be classified as indirect discrimination under the Equality Act? Exemptions under religious grounds do not cover all forms of discrimination.

Bob
Bob
Reply to  Perry Butler
4 months ago

Could the same be said about those who are not prepared to vote for anyone who is opposed to PLF and SSM?

Jo B
Jo B
Reply to  Bob
4 months ago

Depends in what way they’re opposed. If they don’t want to participate in solemnising same-sex marriages or using PLF then that’s not grounds for resisting them. If they’re intent on prohibiting other from doing so that’s a rather different kettle of fish.

Bob
Bob
Reply to  Jo B
4 months ago

The bishops in the Church of England have continually re-affirmed that marriage is between one man and one woman. So I assume any bishop who has affirmed that marriage is between one man and one woman should be opposed!

Anthony Archer
Anthony Archer
Reply to  Susannah Clark
4 months ago

It’s pretty dire, but I am not surprised. It is all about LLF. Nothing else matters in the minds of the (normally) 66% of current central members (4) being traditionalists who only need to find one other ally amongst the diocesan representatives to veto a nomination. It is clear the Ely CNC got only to eight or nine votes. It clearly wasn’t more than nine. It is of course the exact antithesis of Professor Oliver O’Donovan’s magisterial report, Discerning in Obedience, relevant extracts of which are read out in the CNC (usually at the first meeting). There is scant discernment… Read more »

Last edited 4 months ago by Anthony Archer
Anglican in Exile
Anglican in Exile
Reply to  Anthony Archer
4 months ago

I suspect we’ll see a lot more of this given the current climate. It’s ridiculous the process of appointing a Diocesan is so secretive, and constructed in such a way that a single issue group can successfully veto appointments. I can’t believe in Carlisle and Ely none of the shortlist were perfectly able and qualified to do the job!

Graham Holmes
Graham Holmes
Reply to  Anthony Archer
4 months ago

Am I right in thinking that the process in Wales and or Scotland would at this point be referred to the Bench of Bishops to make the appointment as they felt to be in the best interests of the Church? Would this be a comparatively easy change to be enacted in the CoE? Could it attract widespread support, or would it be blocked (by those who wish to split off anyway)?

Tim Chesterton
Reply to  Graham Holmes
4 months ago

Don’t Wales and Scotland elect their bishops in their diocesan synods like we do here in Canada?

Nick Becket
Nick Becket
Reply to  Tim Chesterton
4 months ago

No. “In the Church in Wales bishops are elected by a group of church members called the Electoral College. The College is made up of six members elected by each diocese (three lay members and three clergy), with twelve members elected by the diocese to which the Bishop is being elected. With the remaining bishops, this makes a group of 47. The Electoral College meets in the Cathedral of the vacant diocese for up to three days, and its proceedings are confidential. A bishop is elected when one of the candidates receives two-thirds or more of the votes cast by… Read more »

Nick Becket
Nick Becket
Reply to  Tim Chesterton
4 months ago

In Scotland there is an “Electoral Synod” which “shall comprise the members … of the Diocesan Synod”. “The process for the election of a new bishop of a diocese is detailed in Canon 4 “Of the Calling and Election of Bishops to Vacant Sees”. There is a long-established principle in the Scottish Episcopal Church that every diocese should elect its own bishop. It is a single electoral process in three possible stages, set in motion by a Mandate from the Primus, normally issued within 21 days of a See becoming vacant. The Electoral Synod (comprising both clergy and lay members… Read more »

Susannah Clark
Reply to  Nick Becket
4 months ago

I think we have to bear in mind that there is a constitutional difference between Scotland and the two English provinces, because the Church of England is the Established Church.

Tim Chesterton
Reply to  Susannah Clark
4 months ago

I think we all know that, Susannah. No one is saying that English bishops should be elected by popular vote (I’ve had many experiences of snarky responses on TA to any suggestion like that!). I simply asked a question about the process in Scotland and Wales, with which I was unfamiliar.

Susannah Clark
Reply to  Tim Chesterton
4 months ago

I know Tim. I wasn’t having a go at you. Just reminding people generally that because of the C of E’s quasi-constitutional position, a Scottish approach might not be simple to replicate.

I certainly wish the Church of England would copy the Scottish Episcopal Church and deal with the ‘sex’ issue their way, so everyone could just get on with so many other pastoral needs, at home and abroad, and just mind their own business about sex and what people (differently) believe, and allow individual conscience but not a new province with quarantine between provinces.

Susannah Clark
Reply to  Anthony Archer
4 months ago

Thank you Anthony. I find it so hard. My own experience of vocation discernment comes from the religious houses, who undertake such a careful and deeply prayerful discernment process. The thought that the discernment of a vocation might be politicised just seems so sad. I know vocation discernment carried out by two convents changed my life and I will be forever grateful. It was tender, honest, sometimes raw. But I always trusted those tasked with digging deep and praying even deeper.

Susannah Clark
Reply to  Anthony Archer
4 months ago

One other question on my mind. Why is the formal discernment process only started when an incumbent bishop leaves (or have I got that wrong)? It surely can’t be optimal to have extended periods waiting for an appointment, so why not kick off recruitment/discernment process 18 months before the departing bishop’s retirement age, so the new bishop is selected 6 months prior to commencement, enabling a better handover and also more notice for those the new bishop will be leaving behind? It also affords more time for the new bishop’s family. It just seems a more orderly approach. That’s what… Read more »

Last edited 4 months ago by Susannah Clark
Paul Hutchinson
Paul Hutchinson
Reply to  Susannah Clark
4 months ago

Not all bishops serve to retirement. +Stephen Ely moved to Lincoln. And the previous Durham vacancy (in 2013-4, after less than 18 months in post) was created by a move to Canterbury…

Anthony Archer
Anthony Archer
Reply to  Susannah Clark
4 months ago

The CNC system has broken down. The question is is it irretrievable? There have only really been two fundamental changes since 1975: (i) the revised constitutional convention that the Prime Minister now accepts the first (and only) name; and (ii) the interviewing of candidates. Other changes to the standing orders have been tinkering. They have been made in an honest attempt to improve the process, but it is doubtful whether they have made a material difference. The one proposal arising from the O’Donovan Review which General Synod rejected was that to end secret voting. It is very strange that a group of people meeting together to… Read more »

Kate Keates
Kate Keates
Reply to  Anthony Archer
4 months ago

An alternative process would be a central group appointing suitable individuals to a national, and published, long list, ensuring proper balance. Then allow dioceses to select from the list the candidate most suitable for them. That would also remove the need for the archbishops to sit in each local CNC. At the moment their availability is a barrier to efficiency.

Last edited 4 months ago by Kate Keates
David Lamming
David Lamming
Reply to  Susannah Clark
4 months ago

Susannah, to answer your question, in respect of a vacancy occasioned by a bishop’s retirement, the process starts when he or she confirms his/her retirement date. In the case of my diocese (St Eds & Ips) Bishop Martin announced in February that he would be retiring on 28 February 2025 and the diocesan vacancy in see committee (ViSC) have been meeting over the past two months to carry out their part of the discernment process to seek a new bishop. The diocesan CNC members were elected at a meeting of the ViSC last evening (15 July) and the standard notice… Read more »

Susannah Clark
Reply to  David Lamming
4 months ago

Thanks David, that’s really helpful.

Stephen Griffiths
Stephen Griffiths
Reply to  Anthony Archer
4 months ago

But Exeter was filled, by someone on record as supporting PLF and more. Same central CNC dynamics at work, different outcome. Acting diocesans around the country will be cancelling their 2025 and 2026 holidays.

Anthony Archer
Anthony Archer
Reply to  Stephen Griffiths
4 months ago

Yes, Exeter was interesting. Different people. Better discernment. More obedience to the task.

Bob
Bob
Reply to  Anthony Archer
4 months ago

An interesting response. Could you explain to me how the discernment was better, and how you know that there was more obedience to the task.

Anthony Archer
Anthony Archer
Reply to  Bob
4 months ago

Surmise, and with some knowledge of the participants.

Bob
Bob
Reply to  Anthony Archer
4 months ago

Nothing to do with the outcome?

Anthony Archer
Anthony Archer
Reply to  Bob
4 months ago

Nice try, but no, not at all. I have served on 18 CNCs and the nominations reflected a wide spectrum of tradition and background, and in recent years some gender balance, although not enough. Importantly we never failed in the task.

Realist
Realist
Reply to  Anthony Archer
4 months ago

I’m genuinely puzzled by what you say about better discernment, Anthony. I spent a lot of years ministering specifically in discernment focused ministries, and I found no reliable way of being able to tell for sure what could be ‘better’ or ‘worse’ discernment. The term is incredibly slippery to define, and if its goal is to work out what the Holy Spirit’s intention is, I got no further than it being an inexact art rather than an exact science. It may be that I was just always an inadequate worker in this particular vineyard, but I was somewhat reassured more… Read more »

Anthony Archer
Anthony Archer
Reply to  Realist
4 months ago

I can recommend you read the O’Donovan report Discerning in Obedience on this. Obviously, at the risk of sounding slightly pious, the CNC is trying to discern the mind of God. Whom is God calling to this particular place? All appointments are basically an art, not a science, but good process really helps. 35 years in executive recruitment taught me that. What used to shock me was the blatant discrimination in senior appointments in the Church of England. It would never have been tolerated in the real world.

Realist
Realist
Reply to  Anthony Archer
4 months ago

Thanks Anthony, that’s helpful. I’ve read the O’Donovan Report, and whilst it’s a fine piece of theological writing (as you’d expect from so eminent a scholar), my concern is always how such things play out in practice. Masking political machinations and, indeed, the point Aljbri makes about the cultural ‘soundness’ with spiritualised language I find utterly disingenuous. That isn’t what I think you are doing, to be clear, but I am not so sure of many involved in the CNC process. I couldn’t agree more about the discrimination issue, though. The changes over recent years haven’t dispensed with that concern,… Read more »

Nick Becket
Nick Becket
Reply to  Realist
4 months ago

I’m sure Anthony or someone else with experience can confirm this — is the CNC’s choice restricted to those on a “preferment list”? Or are they able to choose candidates from a much wider group?

Anthony Archer
Anthony Archer
Reply to  Nick Becket
4 months ago

How long have you got? TA may not be the best place to unpack some of this stuff. The short answer is that there is a preferment process and it was developed significantly (and well) in the time of Caroline Boddington as Archbishops’ Secretary for Appointments. Whether the ‘right people’ get on it is another question. Each diocesan bishop is expected to keep under review his/her clergy who may have the potential for a senior appointment. Some do it well, some badly, and some not at all. So there is a list called the Ready Now Diocesan list (RNDB); there… Read more »

Simon Dawson
Simon Dawson
Reply to  Anthony Archer
4 months ago

When it comes to blatant discrimination, the failure to appoint any out gay bishops comes to mind. There are a huge number of out gay priests in the church, many of whom are very competent and experienced and have risen to senior positions like cathedral dean or archdeacon. One presumes that to get such posts they have been willing to give the required assurances about complying with the celibacy requirements, and should thus be appointable as bishop. But it never seems to happen. The are a number of closeted bishops, and one wonders at a process where a closeted candidate… Read more »

Aljbri
Aljbri
Reply to  Realist
4 months ago

I found this post very interesting. Once I retired and became more engaged in matters Anglican, I had to add ‘discernment’ to my vocabulary. The idea has always made me smile, albeit with some ironic intent. It’s a bit like the senior civil service use of ‘judgement’, when in fact what is meant is ‘sound man’. I’d like to think that discernment is shorthand for an approach to difficult issues which is long on listening and hearing, and recognises that in choosing someone for a demanding job, back pocket notes saying ‘never a whatever’ are unlikely to be helpful. But… Read more »

Realist
Realist
Reply to  Aljbri
4 months ago

Wonderfully perceptive! Thank you for this.

Simon Bravery
Simon Bravery
Reply to  Stephen Griffiths
4 months ago

Sodor and Man had been appointed recently too. So not a complete breakdown in the process but two failures to appoint so close together is worrying.

Matthew Tomlinson
Matthew Tomlinson
Reply to  Simon Bravery
4 months ago

Is there any real point in the diocese of Sodor and Man? Given that the ferry link is from Heysham, could it not be part of the diocese of Blackburn?

Bob
Bob
Reply to  Matthew Tomlinson
4 months ago

Don’t forget the ferry from Liverpool!

Charles Read
Reply to  Matthew Tomlinson
4 months ago

If you are Manx this is tantamount to heresy! They are an independent lot over there.

T Pott
T Pott
4 months ago

Interviews took place on Thursday and Friday, and then it was announced first thing on Monday that they couldn’t reach a consensus.
Oughtn’t there to have been time for members to consider the interviews separately, and then discuss them as a group?
That it was apparently decided almost immediately after the interviews that they could not agree seems to suggest no such discussion took place. Why not give it a few days to mull it over?

Susanna (no ‘h’)
Susanna (no ‘h’)
Reply to  T Pott
4 months ago

So was it discernment or trial of strength?
If members of the committee went along to the meeting with a long non negotiable list of redlines then no amount of mulling anything over would help
And there are absolutely no consequences for failing to appoint apart from XX Justin being able to trot out his catchphrase about needing time to reflect …. Anthony Archer has summed it all up as ‘pretty dire’ and ‘broken’ – which is exactly what it seems and given the XX’s response I wonder whether that is just what was intended .

Paul Hutchinson
Paul Hutchinson
Reply to  T Pott
4 months ago

If, say, six members of the CNC have clearly formed views that some theological positions are not to be commended in a Diocesan bishop, no amount of time to mull over the interviews will change those clearly formed views.

T Pott
T Pott
Reply to  Paul Hutchinson
4 months ago

In that case, (if that is the case), the interview process was a sham. Inviting a candidate to an interview for a post, when it is already certain they will not be offered it, seems very poor practice in any walk of life.If it was already certain none of them would get it, then even more so. If that was the case one hopes the CNC members will not receive expenses.

Alternatively, perhaps we could follow the medieval practice at Rome, and lock them up indefinitely, on a restricted diet, until they do agree.

Last edited 4 months ago by T Pott
Flying scotsman
Flying scotsman
Reply to  T Pott
4 months ago

Is this a mirroring of things to come for the Canterbury CNC? Its my understanding that in a slight tweak it will include a rep from the Anglican Communion depending on where they are from it could be perceived that the CNC is more conservative or liberal. To counter balance it are they going to need to appoint someone with opposite view. In recent memory the Scottish Episcopal church had to re run its selection procedures I could be wrong i think it was argyle and the Isles before Keith Riglin was chosen. The failure to appoint is going to… Read more »

Sceptical
Sceptical
4 months ago

Yet again why is it that no one even stops to consider whether appointments to Ely and Carlisle have to made. As with St Ed’s is there not a case at least to consider a merger with a neighbouring Diocese or the realignment of the parishes into the adjoining Diocese. Yes, I appreciate that both Ely and Carlisle have venerable histories but there seems little similar sentiment when it comes to the ever increasing merry go round of more and more parishes being amalgamated into evermore unworkable and unwieldy benefices.It seems to me that the frontline Parish Clergy are bearing… Read more »

Ian Smith
Ian Smith
4 months ago

I’m sure a political (theological) rationale has been at the root of non appointments at Carlisle and Ely. A few years ago it was true of Oxford. But the whole Church of England and these dioceses are hampered by the process insisting on a non comment when no appointment was made. It fuels speculation and seeking that gnostic connection to someone who knows. Perhaps in addition we now have such an expectation about a diocesan bishop as a potential voter at General Synod; as the person who will sway or confirm a diocese in its sound or progressive stance; as… Read more »

Jeremy
Jeremy
4 months ago

If CNCs are having trouble, perhaps it is time for Parliament to legislate same-sex marriage and take this issue out of the Church’s hands.
Institutional and policy uniformity can be imposed from above. Of course uniformity of conscience cannot.
The King’s Speech did include a sentence about banning conversions.

T Pott
T Pott
Reply to  Jeremy
4 months ago

This worked very well in Scandinavia. The matter was addressed as a civil matter involving parish churches, and it was recognised from the start it had nothing to do with the doctrines of the Church.

Welby insisted on making it doctrinal.

Susanna (no ‘h’)
Susanna (no ‘h’)
Reply to  T Pott
4 months ago

If there was a will to solve this rather than add to the chaos surrounding LLF, another simple rule change would help- and save a great deal of effort not to mention money and good will from the shortlisted candidates . Apart from tenure automatically passing to the Acting Diocesan bishop after an agreed delay which I have already suggested ,synod members of any CNC which fails to appoint should be exempted from standing again, just like jurors following harrowing trials. I do wonder in whose name these CNC members think they are acting if they can turn down six… Read more »

T Pott
T Pott
Reply to  Susanna (no ‘h’)
4 months ago

How and by whom are Acting Diocesans appointed? If they are candidates themselves then their supporters even if very few on the CNC can simply hold out long enough to get the one they want. If they are not candidates themselves then I suppose nobody can make them take the job anyway?
Would CNCs degenerate into yet another redundant step in the process, similar to the role of canons. They would meet but it would be understood that they are not to get in the way of the Acting Diocesan. Which comes back to the question who appoints Acting Diocesans?

Simon Sarmiento
Reply to  T Pott
4 months ago

Acting diocesans are appointed by the relevant archbishop. Usually but not always they are the senior suffragan bishop in that diocese.

T Pott
T Pott
Reply to  Simon Sarmiento
4 months ago

So Susanna (no ‘h’). Would you still advocate the Acting Diocesan as default. Effectively it seems to mean archbishop’s appoint all bishops?

Susanna (no ‘h’)
Susanna (no ‘h’)
Reply to  T Pott
4 months ago

I don’t think Acting Diocesans are allowed to apply for a see where they are acting are they? If they are doing a decent job why not confirm them in post? But I suspect it wouldn’t often get to that point if the power hungry in the CNC thought they would lose leverage/ patronage. If this were coupled with those who held up appointments not being given another go I think the process would suddenly speed up. The important thing is to provide consequences to curtail all this politicking about. At the moment the appointment can just be strung along… Read more »

T Pott
T Pott
Reply to  Susanna (no ‘h’)
4 months ago

Thank you and to Simon. If Acting Diocesans are not allowed to apply (I don’t know) then they cannot be scrutinised by the CNC and, presumably, do not feel called by God, or otherwise inclined, to assume the position anyway. It would only need a very few supporters of the archbishop to stall the CNC so ensuing his or her appointee was confirmed. Another aspect of this is the proposal (cloaked under a transparency agenda) that Acting Diocesans have a vote in the House of Bishops. These are people who have no other call but an archbishop’s patronage and, if… Read more »

Bob
Bob
Reply to  T Pott
4 months ago

Sounds very similar to US Supreme Court, appointed for life by the president. Surely that wouldn’t be possible in the Church of England?

Nick Becket
Nick Becket
Reply to  Susanna (no ‘h’)
4 months ago

Again, I’m sure an insider like Anthony can confirm this – but as I understand it, no one applies for a diocesan bishopric. Candidates are invited into the process by the CNC, although they can choose not to participate. The CNC can consider pretty much who they want to, including existing suffragans in the diocese. The outgoing Bishop of Carlisle was previously the suffragan bishop of Penrith in the diocese of Carlisle, for example, and more recently, Lincoln chose the Bishop of Ely who was the acting Bishop of Lincoln.

Simon W
Simon W
4 months ago

Anthony Archer’s letter in today’s Church Times (19/07/24) nails the issue well I thought.

Anthony Archer
Anthony Archer
Reply to  Simon W
4 months ago

Badge of honour to be opposed in the letters page of the Church Times (not for the first time) by Revd Dr Ian Paul (26/7/24) who agrees with me that preferences over LLF are a factor in the deliberations of the CNC, but blames the bishops not the commission members!  A more measured letter from Revd James Shakespeare from Ely diocese concludes: ‘Whether we are conservative or liberal on sexuality, let us look not to our own needs or self-interests, but to the poor, the hungry, the marginalised, and confused seekers.” Regrettably the ConEvos will continue to prosecute their own agenda,… Read more »

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