Thinking Anglicans

Living in Love and Faith – publication update

The Church of England has announced that its Living in Love and Faith teaching and learning resources will be published on the afternoon of November 9; the press release is copied below.

Church House Publishing is advertising the main volume for £19.99, and a 5-session course for groups for £4.99 (or £24.99 for a pack of six).

Press release

Living in Love and Faith – publication update
26/10/2020

The Church of England’s Living in Love and Faith teaching and learning resources, exploring questions of human identity, sexuality, relationships and marriage, will be published on the afternoon of November 9.

The resources, commissioned by the House of Bishops, will include a book, a series of films and podcasts and a course which have been developed over the last three years by a group of more than 40 people from across the Church.

They are intended to initiate a process of whole Church learning and engagement, within a clear timeframe, that will contribute to the Bishops’ discernment of a way forward in relation to questions of human identity, sexuality, relationships and marriage.

Exact timings will be confirmed closer to the date.

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Richard Ashby
Richard Ashby
28 days ago

Do they honestly expect anyone to actually engage with this?

Just Sayin’
Just Sayin’
28 days ago
Reply to  Richard Ashby

I know of no one where I serve who cares about this. Why would I waste time and money on what has been a non issue for a very long time? Some of us have been living in faith and love with all for many years quite happily thank you very much. Having abdicated leadership during lockdown I’m not sure the HoB can lay claim to it over this.

Shamus
Shamus
28 days ago

The press release says “within a clear timeframe”, and then says, “Exact timings will be confirmed closer to the date”. So that’s clear then.

Anthony Archer
Anthony Archer
28 days ago

It should be expected that all members of the General Synod will be sent a copy of the main volume, together with the group study booklet.

Perry Butler
Perry Butler
28 days ago
Reply to  Anthony Archer

I suspect it will be of interest to GS members and members of diocesan synods and even perhaps some deanery synods, but I can’t see it being avidly read in the church I attend( average age nearer80 than 70)

Anthony Archer
Anthony Archer
27 days ago
Reply to  Perry Butler

I have emailed Church House asking them to confirm that each member of General Synod will receive a hard copy of the main volume and the study guide.

FrDavid H
FrDavid H
28 days ago

So much effort and preparation for an exercise which will affect no one. They needn’t have bothered because no one else is.

Interested Observer
Interested Observer
28 days ago

Ooh! Teaser! Soft launch! Viral! Stealth! But then, a sentence which (removing the extraneous verbiage) reads “intended … initiate … process … contribute … discernment … way forward”. Any one of those means it’s a provisional, tentative document which no-one is actually standing behind, no-one is claiming to actually believe a word of it, but it’s being put out there as a vague discussion point. All six of them? It’s not so much the sound of the House of Bishops distancing themselves from any suggestion it is worthwhile as the sound of the entire herd of bishops stampeding for the… Read more »

Fr. Dean Henley
Fr. Dean Henley
28 days ago

They’re using it as a fundraiser at £20 a pop. I can think of any number of things more worthy of that sort of money.

God 'elp us all
God 'elp us all
27 days ago

Perhaps the funds raised will be used in some small way to contribute to the salary of the Development Manager (Redress Scheme)Or maybe to kickstart the redress fund itself?
Or the Victim Bishops (and Archbishops?)(Early Retirement) Fund? ‘Early BARF’?
Or the Office for Survivors Of Discrimination for those victimised for their sexuality?
Looking forward to this blessed millstone being cast into the sea on 9 November.

Susannah Clark
Susannah Clark
28 days ago

Will all the resources be published online as well?

Helen King
Helen King
27 days ago
Reply to  Susannah Clark

According to another person who is in the Coordinating Group for LLF and thus should know: yes, they will be published online. Which wasn’t mentioned in the press release.

Paul Waddington
Paul Waddington
27 days ago
Reply to  Susannah Clark

Of course not. They would not make any money that way.

Helen King
Helen King
27 days ago

It’s hardly going to recoup the £600k spent on the process, though, is it? (Figure from General Synod questions, Feb 2020)

Father David
28 days ago

Looks like Pope Francis has jumped the gun on this issue and has left the Church of England stranded at the starting line!

Simon Dawson
Simon Dawson
27 days ago
Reply to  Father David

All Pope Francis said was ““What we have to create is a civil union law. That way they are legally covered”. This is exactly the same as the CofE House of Bishop’s current position. He has not jumped the gun at all.

The necessary debate is about going beyond that, to affirm same-sex marriage – which Pope Francis is opposed to

Paul Waddington
Paul Waddington
27 days ago
Reply to  Simon Dawson

Also the Vatican Machine has gagged all discussion on the matter and imposed a news blackout. It is another case of Pope Francis opening his mouth before engaging his brain.

peterpi -- Peter Gross
peterpi -- Peter Gross
27 days ago

Or,, …
Pope Francis speaking from his heart before the Vatican apparatchiks can shut him down.

ACI
ACI
27 days ago
Reply to  Father David

Do you really mean that? Francis used the occasion of his private remarks in a documentary to reiterate the teaching of the Catholic Church on marriage. If you are looking for collateral support, the Catholic Church is an odd choice.

Laurence Cunnington
Laurence Cunnington
27 days ago
Reply to  Father David

Locally, I can see this attracting a handful of people to a Zoom meeting where the Dean will tell the gays how lovely we all are but that she isn’t prepared to do anything until the Bishop tells her what to think.

Last edited 27 days ago by Laurence Cunnington
Dominic Barrington
Dominic Barrington
27 days ago
Reply to  Father David

And rather wisely then gone and named a number of new cardinals!

FrDavid H
FrDavid H
27 days ago
Reply to  Father David

Pope Francis’ recent remarks don’t change one iota the RC Church’s antediluvian view of marriage and human relations. They are a far cry, however, from the callous and theoretical views of his predecessor who lacked any obvious pastoral sense. A small chink of light from the RC Church is better than nothing. The fact that it has upset so many “conservatives” speaks volumes.

Father David
27 days ago
Reply to  FrDavid H

As Pope Francis once said on another occasion – “Who am I to judge?”

Kate
Kate
28 days ago

If the Church of England suggests that the human identity of trans people should be a matter for debate the issue of same sex marriage will look like a storm in a tea cup.

Stanley Monkhouse
28 days ago

I hear it said that the church should get out of people’s bedrooms. Not a bit of it. Let it get right in there. I’m expecting soon to be able to read a table giving details of anatomical structures that may be apposed in the pursuit of love and mutual gratification without incurring episcopal displeasure. A bit like the Table of Kindred and Affinity giving details of who may not marry each other.  So LLF would list structures and acceptable orifices, and prescribe the periodicity and frequency with which stimulation may and may not occur. Furthermore, CCTV networks will be installed… Read more »

FrDavid H
FrDavid H
27 days ago

I’m totally in agreement with these amazing suggestions. Perhaps there would be a greater demand for this study course if the authors wrote an illustrated paperback in the style of Dr. Alex Comfort. They could, call it “The Misery of Sex”, displaying all the physical contortions forbidden to devout Anglicans. I’m sure it would be worth £20 to see pictures of what the bishops call “discernment”.

Fr. Dean Henley
Fr. Dean Henley
26 days ago
Reply to  FrDavid H

Wonderful Fr. David. I’m convinced that much of the antipathy towards lesbians and gay men is the bishops’ fantasy that gays are having way way too much fun. I’ve no personal experience of what it is to be straight but 25 years in orders have left me unable to be shocked at what these heterosexuals get up to. I’d like to suggest that Professor Monkhouse be the Chair of the Church’s Commission on Illicit Hanky Panky.

Fr John Harris-White
Fr John Harris-White
27 days ago

Generations too late! A waste of print, time and money. The world has moved on in many places. Some of us, by God,s grace have tried through our ministry to live in faith and love. During the aids pandemic, this was at variance with the Bishops.. We God’,s priests loved the people committed to our care in our hospitals, those dying of aids, and all those staying in our hospital care. Like many priests today, some of us were disciplined for our work, the reason given, because we were gay! When will the Bishops of our church try living in… Read more »

Marise Hargreaves
Marise Hargreaves
27 days ago

In the light of the report following the murder of a gay elderly gentleman linked to the homophobic attitude of the church, it would be more relevant to be discussing an end to homophobia, transphobia and a more healthy attitude to sex. Spending nearly £25 to work out where the church is going is a waste of time and money. Everyone else is well over this as a topic and has moved on – including Pope Francis. The time for talk is over. The HoB is discredited and irrelevant to the majority of people inside and outside the church. Sorry… Read more »

Jeremy Pemberton
Jeremy Pemberton
27 days ago

I have pre-ordered. My level of anticipation is subterranean. Publishing one very large book that only the most dedicated will bother ploughing through, and then, in addition, a slim five-session group resource seems to me to suggest that they don’t really expect deaneries/parishes to engage with this at depth. Perhaps they realise that everyone has made up their minds years ago (one way or the other) and that this whole business is going to contribute almost nothing to our dilemma. Frankly, if the bishops think that they are going to lead the way forward in relation to questions of human… Read more »

Kate
Kate
27 days ago

“a process of whole Church learning and engagement, within a clear timeframe, that will CONTRIBUTE to the Bishops’ discernment of a way forward” (emphasis added)

That lack of respect is reciprocal it seems as the expensive process won’t determine, or even inform, what the bishops decide, it will merely contribute. We are as redundant to them as they are to us it seems.

Jill Armstead
Jill Armstead
27 days ago

It looks like good old box-ticking to me. The HOB demonstrating due diligence so that no finger can be pointed at CofE indifference in the face of clerical abuse.

Colin Coward
25 days ago

I’ve pre-ordered as well, Jeremy. I need to complete the set of Church of England reports, published and unpublished, about homosexuality. I’ve been wondering whether your predictions and insights are accurate/ Is it true that the bishops don’t expect the deaneries/parishes to engage at depth? I think it highly likely they most won’t engage at all. As people here keep saying, most parishes have got there already. But do bishops have expectations? Has the thought occurred to them at any point in this process, the outcome of Pilling, that people might no longer be interested in engaging with the bishops’… Read more »

Mark Hart
Mark Hart
27 days ago

480 pages.

Father David
27 days ago

I know virtually nothing about cricket but this seems to me to be yet another attempt to bat the whole issue into the long grass, thus postponing making a definite decision regarding this long running sage and debate. This simply is not cricket!

cryptogram
cryptogram
26 days ago

Like Fr Stanley I am retired. Thank God for that. I shall simply ignore this montegenerated mouse, unless I am required to produce a certificate signed by the area dean that I have attended a course of discussions before my PTO can be renewed. It occurs to me that a bottle of gin to bribe the AD would be the cheaper option.

Stanley Monkhouse
26 days ago
Reply to  cryptogram

Years before I retired I sent my suggestions for a table detailing acceptable anatomical gratification and employment of diocesan pleasure police to the diocesan. He replied that he was not then minded to act on it. As to PTO renewal, when my DBS and certificates expire I shan’t renew. Can’t be bothered (not allowed to drive, need to be transported to courses, etc). If the trend gathers momentum, PTO renewals will need safeguarding certs, covid-free certs, genital activity purity certs, freedom from thought crime certs, acceptable responses to “what are bishops for?” certs. And more. I yield to no one… Read more »

Perry Butler
Perry Butler
26 days ago

Certainly what is now required re safeguarding Stanley is putting a lot of retired clergy who merely want to help out occasionally off renewing. I know of 3 such. It is surely overkill for clergy who have minimal pastoral responsibility ( though years of pastoral experience) And this at a time when stipenidary posts are being cut, retirements outnumber ordinations and rural anglicanism is in many places in the last chance saloon.

Fr. Dean Henley
Fr. Dean Henley
26 days ago
Reply to  Perry Butler

Perry & Stan, I recently looked into applying for a PTO after retiring about a year ago. I live in the York diocese but spend most weekends caring for my parents in the Lincoln diocese. As you point out the conditions are onerous and would have to be completed in full in both dioceses. It was also abundantly clear that the labourer was not worthy of their hire either. If I remember rightly the fee for a Sunday service was £20, so not even minimum wage for the time needed for preparation, travelling, the service and coffee afterwards. Carer’s Allowance… Read more »

Kate
Kate
26 days ago
Reply to  Perry Butler

That’s safeguarding gone mad. Leading a Eucharist shouldn’t need safeguarding checks any more than serving coffee and biscuits (in the days we did those things) afterwards.

In fact the biggest risk is having a single licensed minister in a parish because there is nobody else to go to if people have concerns about him/her. Encouraging retired ministers to remain around their churches and mitigates that risk.

Kate
Kate
26 days ago
Reply to  Perry Butler

If Jesus returned today the Church of England wouldn’t let him minister until he had been through training and had permission from a bishop. If he wanted to lead a Eucharist, he would have to be ordained.

Rules which would exclude him sort of make it hard to claim that we are truly waiting for and expecting his return.

Helen King
Helen King
25 days ago
Reply to  Kate

People, please can we avoid going down the “we don’t need Safeguarding training” route? I’m critical of the way the money is going towards more and more training rather than to survivors (wrote on this on https://viamedia.news/2019/10/29/safeguarding-sexuality-are-we-throwing-money-in-the-right-direction/), but even in that one hour as a visiting priest you may be asked to share someone’s story, you may witness something which doesn’t look quite right to you – so you need to know how and to whom to report. No exemptions from training, please!

Perry Butler
Perry Butler
25 days ago
Reply to  Helen King

I agree Helen but having renewed my PTO twice I have done two safeguarding sessions already.

James
James
25 days ago
Reply to  Helen King

I fully agree with Helen. Even in this age of safeguarding training, I do feel that there is still a culture within the Church of England of attempting to resolve informally matters which really should be in the hands of safeguarding professionals (we only need to look at the Whitsey Review to see evidence of this, albeit at a high level). I fear that exemptions from training will only further perpetuate a culture which the Church would do well to leave behind. I have no doubt that if such exemptions were in place, many individuals so exempted would seek to… Read more »

FrDavid H
FrDavid H
25 days ago
Reply to  James

Like Fr Perry I have attended two Safeguarding courses and have renewed my PTO after jumping through many hoops. After 47 years in the same diocese, I had to provide three proofs of who I am. All this just to help out at mass and to share some coffee. Without retired clergy the CofE would shut up shop. Acquiring PTO is almost as difficult as being elected Pope.

Shamus
Shamus
25 days ago
Reply to  FrDavid H

Send up the Vatican chimney that white smoke for FrDavid H at once!

FrDavid H
FrDavid H
24 days ago
Reply to  Shamus

I’m flattered. But none of the views I’ve expressed on TA have been Infallible..

Kate
Kate
25 days ago
Reply to  Helen King

I didn’t say safeguarding training wasn’t needed for things like pastoral care but there truly is little difference between celebrating a Eucharist and serving coffee and biscuits – at least in terms of safeguarding.

Not applying safeguarding where it is needed is bad but applying it where it isn’t necessary is likely to dilute wariness

Dominic Barrington
Dominic Barrington
25 days ago
Reply to  Kate

I could not disagree more strongly. The woman or man at the front, presiding over a service, wearing funny clothes, and often addressed in rather ‘reverential’ terms of phrase can be seen as possessing enormous authority and trustworthiness. Rightly or wrongly, I do not think such a perception of authority goes with ‘serving coffee and biscuits’. The ‘bigger’ the apparent placing of authority and trust the more need there is for safeguarding to be in place. I’m utterly astonished by this assertion.

ACI
ACI
25 days ago
Reply to  Helen King

I did not find the safeguarding stuff very onerous either. Wrapped it up in under three hours, if I recall. Just have the ‘live’ bit to do.

Perry Butler
Perry Butler
23 days ago
Reply to  ACI

I think you must have been asked to do something different Christopher than the latest ( June 2020), since this requires 2 preliminary modules ( 1hr.and Ihr 30 mins), a work book submitted to a “trainer”, answers of 250 words and reading and reflection in preparation for two 90 minute zoom sessions including a TV programme and a “360 degree” feedback which requires you to nominate 3 people to comment on you. Plus evaluation with your trainer. Can’t see that is something wrapped up in 3 hrs

ACI
ACI
22 days ago
Reply to  Perry Butler

I have done the two modules at a distance. Putting off the final stage (‘live bit,’ see above) until after vaccines are available. We came back to the US during the pandemic.

Fr. Dean Henley
Fr. Dean Henley
25 days ago
Reply to  Helen King

I’d be happy to do one lot of safeguarding training Helen but not to duplicate it in the next door diocese as well. Two PTOs would require two applications but I ought to be able to passport my training. The quality of the training is sometimes very poor. Before I retired I had to do a compulsory module on domestic violence. The course assumed that all domestic violence was inflicted by men upon their female partners. When I pointed out that it could also happen in same sex couples and upon men by female partners I received a very dismissive… Read more »

James
James
24 days ago

I agree with Fr. Dean about what seems to be the quality of safeguarding training. The person at the centre of my case repeatedly told me that they were C4 safeguarding trained (i.e. the level expected of bishops and other diocesan leadership), as if that should be reassuring. Given what is now coming to light about the way in which my disclosure was handled, one could draw a conclusion that C4 training cannot be that thorough. At least one cleric has expressed concern to me about the thoroughness of C3 training (i.e. the level expected of parish clergy).

RosalindR
RosalindR
24 days ago

since 2016( I think) provided the safeguarding training was the national modules, it can be transferred between dioceses with evidence. ( I have done this). And modules are updated in line with changes . Anyone who has followed the IICSA reports will have seen that being retired does not prevent clergy who are potentially a safeguarding risk continuing to be so; nor does it mean they will never have a disclosure made to them. We are all free to make decisions on what we are willing to do, but what all these reports are indicating is that regular training has… Read more »

Laurence Cunnington
Laurence Cunnington
26 days ago
Reply to  cryptogram

Google brings up only one result for the word ‘montegenerated’:

The existence of low-dimensional brane-like structure in Montegenerated lattice QCD configurations”.

What does this word mean in the context in which you use it? Thank you!

cryptogram
cryptogram
25 days ago

I had in mind “Montes parturiunt, nasciitur ridiculus mus”. As far as I knew, “montegenerated” was a neologism referring to the line from Horace. It don’t pay to try and be clever! My love to Southwell, where I lived 1977 to 1981 and did sundry things in and about the Minster, and at Halam and Edingley Ex dec alto auxiliary too.

Last edited 25 days ago by cryptogram
Laurence Cunnington
Laurence Cunnington
25 days ago
Reply to  cryptogram

Thank you, cryptogram – I don’t have Latin so ‘Google translate’ helped me out. I now get the gist of the meaning! You must have worked with/for Kenneth Beard and/or Paul Hale at the Minster. Kind regards.

Michael Speight
Michael Speight
26 days ago

I’m looking forward to November, a month for remembering past conflicts as I continue to reflect on the nature of a healthy church. Pope Francis and a Grand Iman from Abu Dhabi declared “God has created all human beings equal in rights, duties and dignity.” What is God saying to the churches today? The current postings on the Thinking Anglican website provide rich food for contemplation even if we don’t all agree with Francis that we have all been called to “live together as brothers and sisters” !!!! (Fratelli Tutti 5).

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