Thinking Anglicans

Statement about Episcopal Consecrations

From Lambeth Palace website

A statement by the Archbishop of Canterbury. 

Together with the Archbishop of York, in consultation with the Bishop of London, and after conversation with the House of Bishops, I have put forward new arrangements for the consecration of bishops.

These new arrangements are made in the light of the pandemic and in awareness of the sad reality that not all in the Church of England agree on issues of ordination, and yet all are committed to upholding the Five Guiding Principles.

We have agreed that the Metropolitan will normally ask another bishop to be the chief consecrator. Three bishops are required to consecrate a person as bishop. From now on the Archbishops will ask three bishops to lay on hands with other bishops present and associating with the ordination but not in fact laying on their hands.

St Swithun’s Day (15th July 2020) will see two consecration services happening under the new arrangements in Lambeth Palace Chapel. They will be held under careful guidelines because of the Coronavirus pandemic, with strict limits on the numbers attending.

I will be at both consecrations. As Metropolitan, I will receive the oaths from all three people to be ordained bishop showing jurisdiction over them. Having received the oaths I will then lead all present in a prayer of penitence given our divisions and the sadness that we go on being divided as a church.

I will preach at both services and the Bishop of London (Sarah Mullally), as Dean of the Province of Canterbury, will welcome the new bishops at both services.

I will also give each bishop their symbols of office – a ring, cross and staff and pronounce the blessing at the end of both services.

We are not stepping back under these new arrangements, rather we are stepping forward to work within the Five Guiding Principles and we invite all to walk with us to embrace those principles and pray for an end to the divisions which remain in our church, for which we grieves and are repentant.

Hugh Nelson and Ruth Bushyager will be consecrated by the Bishop of London assisted by the Bishop of Guildford and the Bishop of Dover.

Will Hazlewood will be consecrated by the Bishop of Richborough assisted by the Bishop of Ebbsfleet and The Bishop of Fulham.

It is unfortunate that during the pandemic it is not possible to hold the services in a Cathedral as normal so many friends and family will not be able to be present. The services are both going to be live streamed.

I am delighted to be with all three bishops as they begin their ministry. Please pray for them and for the dioceses in which they will serve.

Subscribe
Notify of
guest
165 Comments
Oldest
Newest
Inline Feedbacks
View all comments
Kelvin Holdsworth
19 days ago

Behold – the first Archbishop to partially excommunicate himself.

Philip Hobday
Philip Hobday
19 days ago

Could someone clarify as I don’t quite follow – are the Archbishops saying they will not consecrate any bishops – whatever their gender or theological convictions on women in the episcopate – at all?

Paul
Paul
19 days ago
Reply to  Philip Hobday

That would seem to be the case.

Rowland Wateridge
Rowland Wateridge
16 days ago
Reply to  Philip Hobday

Sorry this is such a late response (and after 108 posts at the time of writing) but the Archbishop’s statement actually said this:

“We have agreed that the Metropolitan will normally ask another bishop to be the chief consecrator.”
 
Note the word “normally”, not the ‘invariably’ which seems to have been the general interpretation and assumed in almost all of the comments on this thread. It’s vital that the Church clarifies exactly what the Archbishop’s statement was intended to communicate, and whether legislation is contemplated.
 

Father David
19 days ago

Is this a move towards Sarah taking over when Justin retires?

Richard
Richard
19 days ago
Reply to  Father David

Sarah won’t “take over”. She might be nominated and elected archbishop. She is, in fact, the Dean of the southern province by virtue of her office as Bisdop of London. That gives her certain legal rights, but “taking over” is not one of them.

Father David
18 days ago
Reply to  Richard

Would you prefer “succeed” to the See of Canterbury which in my book means exactly the same as “take over”?

Judith Maltby
Judith Maltby
19 days ago

Whether one agrees or disagrees with this development, it is very significant. We only had Synod last Saturday. Why no presentation with a proper theological paper to frame it and a chance for questions? Or are questions from the laity and clergy no longer welcome in ’emerging church’?

Robin Ward
Robin Ward
19 days ago
Reply to  Judith Maltby

It is a very significant development: there is now complete parity for women in ministry, including acting as principal consecrators at consecrations, and from now on women bishops will be principal consecrators or co-consecrators at every consecration apart from a new PEV every five years or so. Sacramentally, it is as if we have women archbishops already. No wonder the Archbishop was nervous enough to keep it all under wraps until today.

David Lamming
David Lamming
19 days ago
Reply to  Judith Maltby

It’s noteworthy that the consecration of the Bishops of St Germans and Horsham (at 11.30 am) clashed with (or at least overlapped) the service (by Zoom) at 11.00 am for the confirmation of the election of +Mark Tanner as the new Bishop of Chester. Albeit that the recordings of both services will be available to watch later on Youtube, the ‘optics’ of this are not good.   Re the wider question of how the two separate consecrations of the bishops of Horsham and Lewes fit in with the Five Guiding Principles, but for the Covid-19 pandemic causing the cancellation of… Read more »

Jayne Ozanne
Jayne Ozanne
14 days ago
Reply to  Judith Maltby

I couldn’t agree with you more, Judith. Not a word breathed about this in the Archbishops’ joint address to Synod. I’m beginning to wonder what they really think Synod is for – obviously not discussing and agreeing things that affect the whole Church! I hope this isn’t a sign of things to come…

God 'elp us all
God 'elp us all
19 days ago

There seems to be a lot happening ‘on the hoof’. Not much forethought. Not much consultation. Not much transparency. Not much trust. Not a good look. Not a good feeling, whatever canons, ‘traditions’ etc may advise or instruct.

Perry Butler
Perry Butler
19 days ago

And not as Judith says above a theological/ecclesiological statement of any weight to justify it. As Karl Barth said to Abp Fisher in 1948, “What part does theology play in your Church”?

Father David
19 days ago
Reply to  Perry Butler

And what was Geoffrey’s response?

Perry Butler
Perry Butler
18 days ago
Reply to  Father David

I must try and look that up Fr David. But one of Fisher’s sons did go on record as saying his father’s faith could be summed up in the well known jingle “Jesus loves me this I know. For the Bible tells me so”. That said, knowing the theological tensions within the C of E, he did commission the reports “Catholicity” and “The Fullness of Christ” which could well be revisited, if only to reveal he could assemble groups of real theological heaviweights from the wings of the C of E….not sure such an impressive range of academic talent could… Read more »

ACI
ACI
18 days ago
Reply to  Perry Butler

Funny. Barth was once quoted as saying the same thing (if indeed Fisher also said it).

Father David
18 days ago
Reply to  Perry Butler

Didn’t Fisher once state – “We have no doctrine of our own – we only possess the Catholic doctrine of the Catholic Church enshrined in the Catholic creeds, and those creeds we hold without addition or diminution.”?

Perry Butler
Perry Butler
18 days ago
Reply to  Father David

He did.

Robert
Robert
16 days ago
Reply to  Father David

Wasn’t that Archbishop Ramsay?

Alice
Alice
18 days ago
Reply to  Perry Butler

Do you have a reference for that? I cannot imagine Geoffrey Fisher saying it, though, as others have said, it’s been attributed to Barth.

Perry Butler
Perry Butler
18 days ago
Reply to  Alice

Nope. Just stored in my memory! In a newspaper article Im pretty sure. I think Barth did say it too, no doubt with a twinkle in his eye. The Fisher comment re no doctrines of his own was in response to a series in the Daily Mail abt what different churches believed but it was subsequently put out by SPCK as a little pamphlet.Perhaps his biography might help by Edward Carpenter

Froghole
Froghole
17 days ago
Reply to  Perry Butler

Many thanks, Dr Butler!
 
I am an equivocal fan of Fisher. My bet is that it was either Charles (HM of Geelong), Francis (master of Wellington) or Henry (fellow of All Souls, recorder of Canterbury, high court judge and president of Wolfson Oxford). Henry, who created controversy by resigning from the high court in 1970 to join Schroders for better pay (to the consternation and dismay of Quintin Hailsham LC and Hubert Parker LCJ), was an avowed atheist.
 
So my preference would be for Henry.

Rowland Wateridge
Rowland Wateridge
19 days ago

Isn’t this a temporary arrangement (the word which the Archbishop uses)? He specifically refers to the context of the pandemic, and then (in the third paragraph) says this:
 
“From now on the Archbishops will ask three bishops to lay on hands with other bishops present and associating with the ordination but not in fact laying on their hands.“
 
As Judith Maltby points out, legislation (which this is not) would be required if such a fundamental change was intended to be permanent.

Malcolm Dixon
Malcolm Dixon
19 days ago

The gist of this statement was read at the start of both services of consecration today.(I sat through both ceremonies as a penance for the sin of ungenerousness to my theological opponents called out by ChuChu Nwagu and others on an earlier thread) I thought that it was a valiant attempt to justify what has happened by separating the juridical and sacramental functions of the Metropolitan, the ABC saying that he was there to receive the Oath of Allegiance but delegating the sacramental roles of Chief Consecrator and Eucharistic celebrant to another bishop.   But it gives no justification of… Read more »

Chuchu Nwagu
Chuchu Nwagu
19 days ago
Reply to  Malcolm Dixon

Traditional church teachings upholds that any bishop with apostolic succession can perform the ordination of another bishop validly. While I don’t wholeheartedly disagree with people’s comments about the ecclesiological implication that something like this bears; I am confused by why members of the church feel it is a hill that they want to die on   The imposition of hands and the prayer is a significant part of the consecration, so if it is an “acceptable” (dependent on what side you look at it from) bishop as Chief Consecrator, why should it matter whether it’s the Archbishop or not… It… Read more »

Simon Dawson
Simon Dawson
19 days ago
Reply to  Chuchu Nwagu

But the important question is not who consecrates, but who does not consecrate, and why certain people are unacceptable.

Malcolm Dixon
Malcolm Dixon
18 days ago
Reply to  Chuchu Nwagu

It’s not a hill I want to die on, Chuchu, but that doesn’t mean I don’t think it important. But I am sorry that you seem to think that I, or perhaps others, have been uncharitable to my opponents in this debate, and I have been wondering why you feel so strongly about it. As far as I can determine from your various postings, you seem to take a charismatic point of view, where the Holy Spirit is dominant and counts for everything. I, on the other hand, cling to the long-standing view, first put forward by Richard Hooker, that… Read more »

Chuchu Nwagu
Chuchu Nwagu
16 days ago
Reply to  Malcolm Dixon

Malcolm – It is not being ‘slain in the spirit’ or ‘charismatic’; it is simple belief in our Lord Jesus Christ and his Heavenly Father. I am a faithful Catholic in the Church of England and completely understand your points but we are not God and through the grace of the Holy Spirit – God will whatever he wants possible. There are things that we can’t control and won’t ever understand about God’s church, rather than spending our time dying over it – Let’s actually do what we as christians are called to do.   The Church of England is… Read more »

Malcolm Dixon
Malcolm Dixon
14 days ago
Reply to  Chuchu Nwagu

Thanks, Chuchu, and I am sorry if I misrepresented you, but I had read on a social media profile that you have a particular interest in Charismatic Catholic Renewal.   I agree with much that you say, and about the importance of the Holy Spirit. But the trouble is that the Spirit, in common with Scripture, does not speak to us directly but only through fallible human beings and, if you ask any two humans, you will almost certainly get two different views on what ‘the Spirit is saying to the churches’. That is why it is important to involve… Read more »

Rowland Wateridge
Rowland Wateridge
19 days ago

Adding to my earlier comment, these are the words from the Ordinal:
 
”Then the Archbishop and Bishops present shall lay their hands upon the head of the elected Bishop kneeling before them upon his [her] knees …”
 
The Ordinal states that the Archbishop’s place may be taken by “some other Bishop appointed by lawful commission”.

Mike Smith
Mike Smith
19 days ago

I agree with Judith, having just had Synod this suggests that there was something to hide. No hint of it from the ABC or ABY. I read this statement as if it is a change for good (or at least for the rest of the time these two Archbishops are with us), and to only advise the Church on the day of consecration smacks of something to hide. I can just about cope with the understanding that the Metropolitan now abstains from laying on of hands. The problem I have is that, from watching the consecrations this morning, the ABC… Read more »

Rowland Wateridge
Rowland Wateridge
19 days ago
Reply to  Mike Smith

It’s utterly absurd that people are guessing what the statement might mean. There should be an immediate clarification, and, if permanent changes are intended, when and how the necessary legislation will be introduced to implement it legally.

Richard
Richard
19 days ago
Reply to  Mike Smith

It looks to me that the Bishop of London and the two co-consecrators entered wearing mitres, but no copes. The Archbishop did not wear a mitre, but carried a crosier to distinguish himself as most senior bishop present. Mitres were set aside for the service. Perhaps it was felt that a service with only a dozen people present would appear a bit over the top with four bishops in cope and mitre, one of whom with metropolitical crosier. I think the “scale” was about right.

Chuchu Nwagu
Chuchu Nwagu
19 days ago
Reply to  Mike Smith

Even if the Archbishop has used his Crozier and worn a mitre, I am sure that people within the church would have found other faults. The episcopal attire of an Archbishop doesn’t add or detract anything from a consecration – It is all vanity, the spirit does the real work.   God does not detract from the validity of an ordination/consecration because somebody isn’t in what we seem appropriate. The use of the Wooden Shepherd’s crook has as much symbolic meaning and power as the use of the “traditional” crozier.   I despair at the self destruction of the CofE… Read more »

Stephen King
Stephen King
19 days ago
Reply to  Mike Smith

I take the point about the ABC being the Metropolitan and therefore using the crozier appropriate to that position. But in the RC church, (I am the Anglican organist of an RC cathedral) any bishop can be consecrated by any three other bishops, irrespective of their sees. So, for instance, a bishop in Wales could have as principal consecrator a US bishop, with one co-consecrator from India and the other from Germany. Moreover, in this country (I can’t comment on what happens elsewhere), several diocesan bishops are consecrated by their retiring predecessors, with their metropolitan archbishop being a co-consecrator.

Jonathan Jamal
Jonathan Jamal
13 days ago
Reply to  Stephen King

In the past in the Roman Catholic Church in England and wales and Sometimes in Scotland, there had been a practice of using the Apostolic Nuncio (or Pro Nuncio as he was called in the past ) to do Consecrations of Roman Catholic Bishops, or Episcopal Ordinations is the preferred term by the Roam Catholic Church now instead of Consecrations, reserving the word “Consecration” to Eucharistic Consecration, the Consecration of new Church Buildings and the Consecration of Virgins (celibate Women set aside for a solitary form of Religious Life). The Nuncio would ordain at the request of the Pope. The… Read more »

Dominic Barrington
Dominic Barrington
19 days ago

My limited understanding of the situation around consecrations is that the archbishop of the province has the prerogative to preside at a consecration – or the prerogative to delegate that task. Over here in TEC, Michael Curry has delegated all consecrations to local bishops during the pandemic, as it happens.   The ABC is clearly trying to keep a complex diocese happy, and he may or may not have come up with the right decision. But I think it is his to make, and I don’t think it sets any precedent (especially as Martin Warner consecrated a traditionalist bishop in… Read more »

ACI
ACI
18 days ago

The idea of a metropolitical role for the PB of TEC is not, of course, baked in, in the same fashion one might suppose obtains in the CofE; it arrived latterly, in the course of the twentieth century, and objections to it were present when it began to take hold. Now it could appear as the ‘way things have always been done.’ I take it from this discussion something that has always been done is being set aside, and hence the concerns being raised.

Andrew Godsall
Andrew Godsall
18 days ago
Reply to  ACI

Christopher I think the concerns are much more serious. The ‘setting aside’ is being done, according to his statement, in response to the ‘sad reality that not all in the Church of England agree on issues of ordination’. But in fact the Archbishop had ample opportunity to discuss this when the matter of the ordination of women to the episcopate was discussed and agreed in synod. He also had opportunity to raise it with synod last weekend, when he had clearly already decided the matter, but chose not to do so. This ‘setting aside’ looks poorly thought out and lacking… Read more »

ACI
ACI
18 days ago
Reply to  Andrew Godsall

Much more serious than what? I was speaking about the discontinuity between the PB of TEC and the role of the Archbishops in the two provinces of England. You are speaking of something else altogether (with which I do not disagree).

Andrew Godsall
Andrew Godsall
18 days ago
Reply to  ACI

Christopher: what you said was “I take it from this discussion something that has always been done is being set aside, and hence the concerns being raised.”
 
And my reply was that it was more serious than simply setting something aside.

ACI
ACI
17 days ago
Reply to  Andrew Godsall

How odd. I say that on the point you are concerned about, I agree. My remark was about the PB and the ABC/Y. But then, I have already said that. Grace and peace.

Andrew Godsall
Andrew Godsall
17 days ago
Reply to  ACI

You asked a question Christopher and I replied. Nothing odd about that I don’t think. The discussion is about the Archbishop and not the PB.

ACI
ACI
16 days ago
Reply to  Andrew Godsall

Given the seriousness of an (apparent?) departure from (longstanding historical) precedent, analogy with the PB of TEC fails. Metropolitical assumptions go back to the period of the previous incumbent (she is still alive) and no further.   The point was an effort to keep the discussion focused on the particularities at hand. With now 90 something comments, this clearly has occurred. The only debating point appears to be whether this is a serious precedent or a covid exigency. Here people appear divided.   Not in doubt is the lurching from one serious and contentious matter in the CofE to the… Read more »

Andrew Godsall
Andrew Godsall
16 days ago
Reply to  ACI

Ah well all churches in the west seem to be subject to these kinds of lurching Christopher, not least the quasi Anglican Church in North America. Maybe within the real Anglican communion we need some device, perhaps a covenant*, to determine who is really in and really out. Some way of telling the old old story. As to being in the kind of polity where the most senior bishop is able to just decide things by fiat, that’s had a pretty fair outing and seems to be less popular these days when consultation isn’t exactly difficult.   oops…I just remembered,… Read more »

ACI
ACI
15 days ago
Reply to  Andrew Godsall

I certainly was not holding up alternatives, as per your comment, but only observing a CofE in extremely difficult straits. TA is a very good place to see the depths of the problem.
 
I am not in ACNA but TEC, and with a PTO in the CofE.
 
I do not know to what your last sentence refers (most senior bishops deciding things).
 
Be well.

Andrew Godsall
Andrew Godsall
14 days ago
Reply to  ACI

Christopher, thank you: yes, I agree the C of E is in some difficulties but am simply observing that it is not alone in this. ‘Conservative’ commentators from the States are often inclined to hold up the (quasi) ACNA as doing rather better, but I am by no means persuaded that this is the case. I know that you and the ACI are keen supporters of the (quasi) Anglican Diocese of South Carolina but their statistics show year on year decline since leaving TEC, and they are now, of course, a member of the ACNA.   My comment about ‘most… Read more »

ACI
ACI
14 days ago
Reply to  Andrew Godsall

To the best of my knowledge I have never made reference in any way to ACNA, neither here nor at any other site (except criticisms of them vis-a-vis Communion Partners, our ACI endeavor, or the Global South as a now covenanted bloc). This seems to be a bit of a red herring.   If by ‘the Anglican way’ you mean to exclude the vast majority of the Communion in the Global South, by all means do.   As for the SC question–talk about off topic!–there may be about 1/4 of the size of TEC in SC, compared to the historical… Read more »

Andrew Godsall
Andrew Godsall
14 days ago
Reply to  ACI

“If by ‘the Anglican way’ you mean to exclude the vast majority of the Communion in the Global South, by all means do.”   Oh gosh no – I do not mean to exclude any. My understanding is that the Global South body as an organisation has no official standing within the Anglican Communion but are a self apppointed group formed to put pressure on the Archbishop rather than offer support. And they include non Anglican churches (ACNA) within their grouping. To that extent the Global South partially exclude themselves. My own preference is generally for inclusion Christopher. Which is… Read more »

ACI
ACI
13 days ago
Reply to  Andrew Godsall

“To that extent the Global South partially exclude themselves” (smiley face insert).

Kate
Kate
19 days ago

Erm, can someone please explain in simple terms why there is a fuss about this? Why doss it matter who consecrated new bishops? Don’t we have more serious things to care about?

Andrew
Andrew
19 days ago
Reply to  Kate

I tend to agree with you, Kate.
 
The optics in the first ceremony were: equality, dissenting from Rome; and in the second one: dissent, equal with Rome.

Rod Gillis
Rod Gillis
18 days ago
Reply to  Kate

“Don’t we have more serious things to care about?” Oh, I think it is important to care about equality of persons.
 
https://www.americanprogress.org/issues/religion/news/2018/05/03/450268/efforts-women-faith-achieve-gender-equality/

Kate
Kate
18 days ago
Reply to  Rod Gillis

But this isn’t about equality of persons. This is simply about the two archbishops not leading any consecrations. There is no sacramental difference in status between an archbishop and a bishop so the whole debate feels vacuous.

Now, if the discussion was the wish for some members of the Church to be consecrated separately that would merit discussion.

Malcolm Dixon
Malcolm Dixon
18 days ago
Reply to  Kate

Erm, actually Kate, you have answered your own question, as it is fundamentally about separate consecrations. I think you will find that all those protesting here about the events of Wednesday at Lambeth would be more than happy if all bishops in future were consecrated by the metropolitan of the province in which they are to serve. That is the proper way and the only way wholly consistent with catholic order.   Yes, there is provision in the legislation for an archbishop to delegate the function to another senior bishop if he can’t be there himself for good reason, but… Read more »

Kate
Kate
17 days ago
Reply to  Malcolm Dixon

It simply doesn’t matter who consecrates a bishop. There are no grades of consecration: it is all or nothing. So which (arch)bishop leads and who assists is yawn-makingly irrelevant. Or should be. The problem we have is that for reasons which would appear to contravene the Five Guiding Principles, FiF and the associated tradition do care and think that some people are more bishop than other bishops – or rather that some aren’t really bishops in sacramental terms. What is odd about this is that I expected the rest of the Church to take the attitude that it doesn’t matter… Read more »

Malcolm Dixon
Malcolm Dixon
16 days ago
Reply to  Kate

With all possible respect, Kate, it doesn’t matter to you because you clearly care not a whit for catholic order. But it matters a great deal to many on this thread, including the former Primate of Ireland, because we do care about catholic order. It’s as simple as that!

NJW
NJW
16 days ago
Reply to  Kate

I may be a long way from the mark – but my own understanding (or perhaps feeling may be a better term) is that the importance of the role of the archbishop is not one of hierarchy (they are not a better bishop), but an indication of collegiality. By the archbishop presiding at rites such as ordinations they represent the fact that, by all being in communion with him/her (as ‘first among equals’) they are all in communion with each other.   The problem for me with what is now happening is that none of the three bishops ordained this… Read more »

Malcolm Dixon
Malcolm Dixon
16 days ago
Reply to  NJW

Beautifully put, NJW, and absolutely on the mark. Thank you for your discernment and clarity.

Rowland Wateridge
Rowland Wateridge
15 days ago
Reply to  NJW

I agree, and equally think that the Canons and Ordinal cannot be regarded so lightly.

Andrew
Andrew
15 days ago
Reply to  NJW

I agree with Malcolm and Rowland that the essence of what communion, fellowship and collegiality entail is very well expressed in your post.   A nearby thread reminded me of Hope Street, Liverpool, which connects its two cathedrals, symbolically as well as geographically. It may be a cliché to say that when Christians join in ecumenical events, they are united by more than what divides them. But it is at least true – and it stops us being too insular in our ‘own’ churches.   Yes, there may appear be an element of corporate delegation and executive decision-making here. But… Read more »

Andrew
Andrew
15 days ago
Reply to  NJW

And it’s also worth mentioning that Welby was Dean of Liverpool before Durham. It may have been a sense of ecumenism which was uppermost on his mind, especially in view of his national and international role. Otherwise the issues are seemingly irresolvable.

Andrew
Andrew
15 days ago
Reply to  Andrew

Besides, isn’t proper collegiality negated by tricameral synodical processes with majority voting? It’s what befell the ill-fated Anglican Covenant project in its progress through the diocesan synods.

Jill Armstead
Jill Armstead
19 days ago

The masks made the participants rather ridiculous. One bishop wore his mask under his nose presumably to try and stop his glasses fogging up and there was a fair bit of face touching. Why did they not wear face shields if they felt obliged to wear face coverings? Much more practical in the circumstances.

Jonathan Jamal
Jonathan Jamal
19 days ago
Reply to  Jill Armstead

Jill,
I watched this on live stream later, and with the two Assisting Bishops, wearing Albs and Stoles, once they had ceremonially laid their Miitres aside, with the masks on, with white venture, it almost made them look like they were taking part in a Surgical operation! The masks certainly gave a clinical air to the whole proceedings at what was meant to be the Consecration and ordination of new Bishops. One could not help thinking this as I watched this online! Though I tried to suppress these naughty thoughts!!! Jonathan.

Andrew
Andrew
19 days ago

Vanpoulles are launching a range of liturgical masks to match vestments, though a see-through one would have captured Justin’s humour better. I thought he was going to launch into a rendition of W.S. Gilbert’s Bishop of Rum-ti-Foo at one point. If the chapel resembled a hospital ward, it was because the former Chief Nursing Officer was presiding.   An appropriately low-church affair with an absence of music, bells and smells, or candlepower, and no East-facing consecration of the elements at the second. It had an air of Presbyterianism about it, under the guise of a consecration. At least there was… Read more »

Neil Patterson
Neil Patterson
19 days ago

I suggest that almost more significant than the laying on of hands was the fact that the chief consecrator was also the celebrant of the Eucharist. I do not know which, if any, of the Society bishops will now receive communion from the ABC.

Perry Butler
Perry Butler
18 days ago
Reply to  Neil Patterson

I dont think +Chichester received communion at either consecration. But im not sure i quite understand why the fact +Londin celebrated changes ABC’s status re PEVs. All this will,however, firm up the Trad Cath constituency into a church within a church with harder boundaries thats for sure.

Kate
Kate
18 days ago
Reply to  Perry Butler

Once we have reached the stage at which there are two entirely separate tribes which never mingle for ordination or consecration it is hard not to see them as separate churches.

Rod Gillis
Rod Gillis
18 days ago
Reply to  Kate

“two entirely separate tribes” two entirely separate sects, there, fixed it.

Peter S
Peter S
19 days ago

Is this the first time in the Anglican Communion that an episcopal consecration has been conducted in which all the consecrating bishops were female?

Jim Pratt
Jim Pratt
17 days ago
Reply to  Peter S

I am would guess that, during Katherine Jefferts-Schori’s term as Presiding Bishop, there were consecrations where the “official” co-consecrators (those who are listed in the table of consecrations) were all female, although there were dozens of bishops joining in the laying on of hands.

Will Richards
Will Richards
19 days ago

The lack of any clearly articulated theological ‘surround’ to this statement is not only profoundly unhelpful; it appears that no-one realised that this lack would only serve to ignite a raft of speculative comment that is, largely, focused on the the ecclesiastical politics rather than the substance of the faith and order issues.   This is a considerable step, however you view it (though I would question the apparent ease of the use of ‘excommunication’ in this context). It gives every impression of having been issued hastily and with only a superficial acknowledgement of the theological/ecclesiological questions it would attract.… Read more »

Stephen King
Stephen King
18 days ago

Could I look at the issue of who consecrates bishops not from the point of view of male versus female, but of Anglo-Catholic versus Evangelical? Will Hazlewood is an Anglo-Catholic and was consecrated by three like minded bishops. But would it have been acceptable had one of his consecrators been the evangelical Bishop of Maidstone, Rod Thomas, and for another, to have brought Wallace Benn (who, of course, is Bishop Will’s predecessor but one at Lewes) out of retirement? After all, neither of Bishops Benn or Thomas ordain women. Ruth Bushyager is an Evangelical, and there are bishops of a… Read more »

Dan Barnes-Davies
18 days ago
Reply to  Stephen King

There was a recent ruling about a church seeking alternative provision in the north London diocese. (Perhaps someone else will be able to help me find it.) If I remember correctly, the upshot was that arrangements such as these are to be made only with reference to whether or not the bishop in question ordains women priests (or bishops).   So if, for instance, Benn, Thomas and +Fulham lived nearest, and therefore had to travel the short distance (while we are all still supposed to exercise restraint in travelling) then they ought to have been the three consecrators for non-tainted… Read more »

Simon Bravery
Simon Bravery
18 days ago

The ruling was about St George Headstone. The PCC did not want + Fulham as he was divorced and remarried. It was held that this was not a reason to ask for another bishop

Dan Barnes-Davies
17 days ago
Reply to  Simon Bravery

Thanks, Simon.

Dan Barnes-Davies
18 days ago
Reply to  Stephen King

Fulham lives nearest, then, by car RIchborough has the shortest commute, then Ebbsfleet and Maidstone exactly equal (by Google Maps estimates.) Benn lives much farther away.

Andrew
Andrew
18 days ago

Dan,
 
+Richborough and +Ebbsfleet don’t live anywhere near there because they are just fields on the east coast of Kent, the site of a former power station. Richborough (Rutupiæ) was a harbour in Roman times, and a possible site of the Claudian invasion of 43AD. The ruins of a fort are still there. Ebbsfleet was the place where St Augustine of Canterbury landed in 597. +Dover lives in Canterbury, but I don’t know about +Maidstone.

Andrew
Andrew
17 days ago
Reply to  Andrew

+Maidstone was abolished as a suffragan bishopric in the diocese of Canterbury a decade ago, retaining only a nominal connection. Five years ago, it was accompanied by the newly created sees of +Richborough and +Ebbsfleet, to provide extra-diocesan alternative episcopal oversight.
 
So of the five sees in the diocese, only ++Canterbury has a residence in the location of that see (but mostly resides at Lambeth Palace, Southwark).

Andrew
Andrew
17 days ago

Simon, my point was that +Dover doesn’t live in that town, but is, to all intents and purposes, the diocesan – supported by the archdeaconries of Canterbury, Maidstone and Ashford (the latter created to replace the suffragan see of +Maidstone).
 
The historically subordinate role of the former suffragan see can be observed in the quire of Canterbury cathedral. +Maidstone’s stall, on the north side, adjacent to the pulpit, is opposite +Dover’s on the south side. +Dover occupies the stall closest to the archbishop’s separate, canopied stall immediately to the east.

Stanley Monkhouse
17 days ago
Reply to  Andrew

Andrew writes Maidstone “was accompanied by the newly created sees of +Richborough and +Ebbsfleet …”. No it wasn’t. Ebbsfleet 1994, Richborough 1995, Maidstone in its conevo role 2015. Dover, as a matter of interest was re-established in 1870. This information is readily avaiable from the great god wikipedia and the various bishops’ websites.

Andrew
Andrew
16 days ago

Thanks for the correction, Stanley. Of course, I meant to say: ‘+Maidstone accompanied the already existing sees of +Richborough and +Ebbsfleet…’!

Dan Barnes-Davies
17 days ago
Reply to  Andrew

Sorry my comment wasn’t clear — the current Bishops of Fulham, Richborough, Ebbsfleet and Maidstone live in Holborn, St Albans, Caversham (Berks) and Godstone (Surrey) respectively. When estimating their commutes to Lambeth Palace, I imagined them starting from their houses, not their Sees.

Andrew
Andrew
16 days ago

Ok, sorry Dan! This is most informative, thank you.

Andrew
Andrew
16 days ago

In summary (see, residence, diocese):
 
+Canterbury, Lambeth, Southwark
+Dover, Canterbury, Canterbury
+Maidstone, Godstone, Southwark
+Richborough, St Albans, St Albans
+Ebbsfleet, Caversham, Oxford
+Fulham, Holborn, London
 
I was reminded of the pointed question about episcopal stipends and expenses at last week’s synod from the plucky Sam Margrave (Cov) – Q.6. Accounts clerks should proceed with caution if using Google maps to check expenses after consecrations.

Stanley Monkhouse
18 days ago

I have some sympathy with those who lament that it is not they who have changed, but the Church of England. As the former incumbent of a parish where when I came resolutions A and B were in force I am aware of the genuine distress and potential division caused by the ordination/consecration of women. I could not and did not encourage the passing of the new resolution when A and B fell into desuetude—I could see no future for the churches (two in the one parish) in the local context were they to have done so. Anyway by then… Read more »

Judith Maltby
Judith Maltby
18 days ago

Stanley, to be fair, no one in Synod voted for the particular arrangements that have just been outlined by the ABC. I was at that Synod and voted for the package that included the 5GPs – and did so very willingly. Like all texts, the 5GPs are read and understood in different ways and, could not one say, that the 5GPs are in a process of reception. We await more information about the consultation process that took place to arrive at the recent announcement and the theology of orders, episcopal ministry and mission, that underpin it. I’m sure it would… Read more »

Judith Maltby
Judith Maltby
18 days ago

An ecumenical query – I’m old fashioned enough to think that still matters. I believe it is often the case that bishops from continental episcopal churches (Porvoo and the Old Catholics) participate in the laying on of hands at consecrations in the Church of England and vice versa. Is this now to end, or at the very least, become very restricted because of the Three Bishop Limit – which used to be the Three Bishop Minimum? It seems tragic just when as a country we are crashing out of Europe, to crash out of long valued ecumenical arrangements with other… Read more »

Jill Armstead
Jill Armstead
18 days ago
Reply to  Judith Maltby

Crashing out? How come?

Judith Maltby
Judith Maltby
18 days ago
Reply to  Jill Armstead

Jill, I admit this is a matter of opinion, but I’d say Brexit isn’t going well, even before the financial crisis of Covid, hence ‘crashing’.

Jill Armstead
Jill Armstead
16 days ago
Reply to  Judith Maltby

Actually, Judith, we are out of the EU and no doubt will retain a good relationship with ‘Europe’. Why would we not?

Andrew
Andrew
18 days ago
Reply to  Judith Maltby

Just an aside on the Porvoo Communion churches: Norway and Iceland aren’t members of the EU.

Father David
18 days ago
Reply to  Judith Maltby

A significant development from Three Bishops Minimum to Three Bishops Maximum. How I miss those Episcopal Rugby Scrums which resulted in Dom Gregory Dix’s observation that they were “having their backbone removed”

Kelvin Holdsworth
16 days ago
Reply to  Judith Maltby

I don’t think this just affects the Porvoo and Old Catholic churches. I think it potentially affects the other churches of the Anglican Communion.   If, for example, English bishops are welcome to lay on hands at Scottish consecrations but that Scottish bishops are not welcome to lay on hands at English consecrations then the C of E and the Scottish Episcopal Church fall some way short of being in full communion.   As someone who has, from time to time, to arrange consecration services, this seems to me to be a quite profound change that may have unintended consequences.

Judith Maltby
Judith Maltby
15 days ago

Kelvin, I agree – that’s both/and surely. This impacts on both ecumenical relations and Anglican Communion relations. Are English bishops advised now not to participate in a consecration in say, Scotland or Wales or Ireland, if more than three bishops are laying on hands? I realise the Brexit analogy isn’t perfect (but has some merit) but what does this say about how the CofE sees itself as part of Anglicanism in Britain and Ireland?   The last consecration I attended was for the bishops of +Dover and +Reading in St Paul’s: a wonderful expression of the international nature of the… Read more »

Rowland Wateridge
Rowland Wateridge
14 days ago
Reply to  Judith Maltby

The Archbishop’s statement requires clarification. People are missing that he said:
 
We have agreed that the Metropolitan will normally ask another bishop to be the chief consecrator.”
 
‘Normally’ doesn’t have the same meaning as invariably, which seems to have been assumed by most contributors here. Wasn’t the Archbishop referring to specific consecrations in specific circumstances? That is how I read the statement, but it’s by no means clear what he meant.

Most Rev J R W Neill
Most Rev J R W Neill
18 days ago

One wonders if the Church of England has lost all sense of decent order. This dual integrity is the sign not of a united church but of a fractured body without a decent ecclesiology.

Perry Butler
Perry Butler
18 days ago

Archbishop Neill, Dean Eric Abbott once told me he thought the most helpful theological reflection at the 1948 Lambeth Conference came from the Church of Ireland.

Lister Tonge
Lister Tonge
18 days ago

Indeed, Archbishop, the C of E seems now to have an ecclesiology founded on taint and appeasement. The Five Guiding Principles of Institutionalised Schism do not become more convincing just because repeated. Now we see the direct consequence of practice in (vain) search of a theology. There were probably good reasons why the Churcb of England could not manage to embrace both the Non-Jurors and the Puritans. A CofE that sells its soul to do so may prove unable to be a home for anyone in between. I’ll ask Dr Butler to provide us again with the prophetic words of… Read more »

Michael Mulhern
Michael Mulhern
18 days ago

Thank you, Bishop John, you have accurately analysed the situation. This is, indeed, how it has been since the early 1990s in the Church of England. This is the reality we must all inhabit in a Church that is highly politicised – and has been since at least the Elizabethan Settlement.   The more difficult question is how do we live well with this fracture in the hope of healing, especially when a slanging match between Forward in Faith and WATCH, that lacks theological substance on both sides, beyond banging-out the well-worn slogans, seems to be the only medicine the… Read more »

Most Rev J R W Neill
Most Rev J R W Neill
18 days ago

Indeed it does go back to the 1990s and I was deeply involved in many of the discussions. In Ireland I took the strong line that there is not room for two integrities in one church – but one can allow individuals to dissent from the official position but nevertheless they must respect it as the position of the church. We had opposition in Ireland to the Ordination of women both among bishops and clergy. But when the decision was taken bishops opposed to the Ordination of Women ordained women, and those both catholic and evangelical among dissenting priests subsequently… Read more »

Stanley Monkhouse
17 days ago

I don’t want to make a meal of what is a side dish, but I’d like to add more personal observations. As a former layman (17 years) and then incumbent (3 years) of the Church of Ireland, the situation there is not equivalent to the situation here.    To my certain knowledge, there is no church in the C of I that “apes” Rome as do so many Anglocatholic churches here. Traditionally, though less so now, the C of I has been high in doctrine and low in practice—what you might call liturgical low church, now alas disappearing from the… Read more »

Geoffrey McLarney
Geoffrey McLarney
16 days ago

There is at least one Anglo-Catholic parish outside Dublin – St George’s, Belfast.

Stanley Monkhouse
16 days ago

Yes, I wondered about St George’s, but not AC in the sense of the Rome-aping English ACs with lace and Roman eucharistic prayers. People may not realise that the canons of the C of I (https://www.ireland.anglican.org/our-faith/the-canons) expressly forbid incense (doesn’t stop some in Dublin) and for vesture permit only cassock, surplice, scarf, stole, bands, hood. No chasubles, dalmatics, copes (again, doesn’t stop some – didn’t stop me). The C of I had significant influence in the establishment of the diocese of Sydney.
 

Last edited 16 days ago by Stanley Monkhouse
Perry Butler
Perry Butler
16 days ago

I gather Stanley it became clear the Ecclesiastical Committee of Parliament made it clear that for the legislation to go forward there had to be arrangements /compensation for opponents. In the event the numbers of priests who left were, I think, fewer than expected and some even came back. It would be useful to have some current figures for the size of the Trad Catholic constituency. I don’t think there are many ordinands; 11 deacons were ordainwd last year and only 3 outside London and Chichester and a look at the web sites of the PEV’s shows that a good… Read more »

Graeme Buttery
Graeme Buttery
16 days ago
Reply to  Perry Butler

True of course, but four things come to mind.
1. As you say, money is tight and reorganisation for all will be painful.
2. The profile of those being ordained and the nature of ministry is changing.
3. The current evangelistic fervour, “Resourcing Church ” et al plays a part.
4. Numbers of all flavours of stipendiary clergy have been tanking in many places for years.

Graeme Buttery

Stanley Monkhouse
16 days ago
Reply to  Perry Butler

Yes it would be interesting, I guess we can all name names of clergy who objected, took the compo, poped, didn’t like what they found, came back, but didn’t return the loot. Can’t think why (in one of my previous parishes near Chesterfield that caused a great deal of lay resentment). And plenty who found the pull of Rome irresistible but curiously not until they were in receipt of the generous pension funded by C of E laypeople – I suppose it’s the obverse of those young male presbyters from the free church traditions who for some inexplicable reason find… Read more »

Last edited 16 days ago by Stanley Monkhouse
Malcolm Dixon
Malcolm Dixon
17 days ago

Thank you, Archbishop. It has come to something when the retired Primate of a neighbouring province feels moved to criticise the CofE for its disorderliness. And of course you are absolutely right.

I just hope that our current Primates take note and do something about it.

Fr. Dean Henley
Fr. Dean Henley
17 days ago

And reaping from whence it has sown. More bishops and archdeacons than at any point in its history but nonetheless dying on its ‘backside’. All the special pleading and special arrangements are distractions from the stark reality of year on year decline.

Michael
Michael
15 days ago

a decline accelerated by the closing of churches for four months and counting. Finally the vicar of the town centre church where I normally worship, conceded to reality and allowed the public to attend the 8 o’clock this morning instead of celebrating privately behind locked doors. Average attendance is 10. One person turned up this morning. My neighbour normally attends but didn’t go. He said that after 19 weeks without church, he has become accustomed to doing something else on Sunday morning so has no interest in returning. Like me, he took umbrage at our vicar privately celebrating communion at… Read more »

Froghole
Froghole
15 days ago
Reply to  Michael

Churches have been permitted to re-open for public worship for three weeks. However, I have struggled to find any critical mass of churches that have done so. Most parish websites seem stuck in lockdown mode (indeed, many still bear notices that their buildings are closed in response to government decrees). I did a fairly comprehensive search of two dioceses in the Midlands, in the hope I could travel there today to attend services; I shouldn’t have bothered searching: in even quite substantial communities, it is still virtual church or nothing at all. If parishes have emerged from hibernation at all,… Read more »

Charles Clapham
Charles Clapham
14 days ago
Reply to  Froghole

Froghole, it would be interesting to see some statistics on this. We reopened for worship as soon as we could, conscious of the need to open as quickly as possible (as well as keeping online worship going for the time being, and possibly indefinitely), and if one follows the guidance it’s certainly safer coming to church than eg the local pub. So far as I can see, most of my neighbouring parishes have done the same. Is this a London thing? Or church tradition? Age of incumbent? Covid cases in the local area? Lead from local bishops? Or what?

Simon Bravery
Simon Bravery
14 days ago

I went to a traditionalist Anglo Catholic Church yesterday. It appeared to be the only one in the area ( Essex/London fringe) which was offering a service for the congregation to attend without booking in advance. There were perhaps 2 dozen in all ( including 2 servers and one priest) and so social distancing could be maintained. Hand sanitizer at the entrance, instructions to take the order of service and many seats very clearly marked “ Do not use.” If I am reading their websites correctly some of the larger central London evangelical churches are still online only. More locally… Read more »

Froghole
Froghole
14 days ago
Reply to  Simon Bravery

Many thanks to Charles Clapham and Simon Bravery for this information.   One of the difficulties I have had is simply obtaining information. A great many websites indicate that they are not offering services in church ‘due to government restrictions’, even though they have been lifted. It is therefore very hard to discern what is going on. FYI, on Saturday I looked at pretty much every available benefice website for the dioceses of Leicester and Worcester. It was a very dispiriting exercise. I undertook similar exercises over the last two weekends, to scant avail, in the hope I might be… Read more »

Andrew
Andrew
14 days ago
Reply to  Froghole

Discussions about who lays hands on whom at consecrations is a form of displacement activity in the face of the chasm opening up in parochial finances.   The Parable of the Talents is cited in diocesan advice to parishes on setting reserves policies. At this time of distress, however, PCC treasurers could be forgiven for thinking they had been placed in the position of the man entrusted with only one talent.  Their relatively paltry cash reserves, buried in figurative holes in the ground, are being shovelled over to dioceses to fund the payroll.   Meanwhile, the Church Commissioners’ investment fund… Read more »

Fr. Dean Henley
Fr. Dean Henley
15 days ago
Reply to  Michael

Given the ratio of bishops to parish clergy couldn’t the gentleman in question be invited in for a pastoral conversation by his bishop? A parish I am familiar with has reopened but at 9 o’clock so that they can continue to Zoom at the peak time of 10.30am. Zoom is the future apparently, but what about those who can’t or don’t want to worship remotely? Those currently doing so by and large know the community of which they are a part, they have a hinterland of real world experience with that group of people, as time goes on the connection… Read more »

Simon Bravery
Simon Bravery
14 days ago

The sticking point seems to be fear of what will happen if too many people attend to observe 1M distancing. Options seem to be:-
1. Let anyone come and pray for a small congregation.
2. ask people to book in advance
3. Continue to livestream services without a congregation whilst choosing between the above and working out how to implement a booking system if you choose option 2.

Charles Clapham
Charles Clapham
14 days ago
Reply to  Simon Bravery

Or (in addition) offer more services, including on weekdays, if attendance exceeds the safe capacity of the church. Obviously there are exceptions, but given the average size of many of our buildings, and the average size of many congregations, it is difficult to believe that most churches could not accommodate most of those who currently want to attend over (say) two services on a Sunday and two during the week. If you had fifty worshippers on the each occasion, that would be 200 per week. How many Anglican churches in the UK realistically expect more than this right now? A… Read more »

Swithun
Swithun
14 days ago

The principal reason most churches in my area are not offering public worship is the total absence of non-vulnerable people to open and lock up, take names for track and trace, clean, and attend to all the normal tasks that make operating the building safe. EVERYONE is over 70.

J Kirby
J Kirby
18 days ago

I do find it amazing how some people trumpet ‘ecclesiology’ after having no such qualms about destroying it in order to get women ordained in the CofE in the first place. How proper ecclesiology can be compromised merely by adhering to the historic and indeed majority Christian view on holy orders is genuinely beyond me. I suppose the next thing will be when the CofE allows same sex marriage those who oppose it will be accused of not upholding the sacrament of holy matrimony. It’s completely mad and inconsistent.

Andrew Godsall
Andrew Godsall
17 days ago
Reply to  J Kirby

It amazes me how some think that proper ecclesiology is *not* compromised by excluding half of the human race from any representative role in holy orders. It was the historic and probably majority Christian view that slavery was fine until relatively recently but more recent events demonstrate that views change. If you could demonstrate how ecclesiology was “destroyed” it would help your case.
 

Tom James
Tom James
17 days ago
Reply to  Andrew Godsall

Except that, Andrew, half the human race is not excluded: it is very much included and given an equal place at the table. This is perfectly demonstrated by the Bishop of Chichester’s willingness to put his own theological convictions to one side and invite a woman to share his episcope of the Chichester Diocese, even though he is not yet convinced by the arguments that say the time is right for Anglican provinces to go it alone. I don’t agree with him. But, to me, as a firm supporter of womens’ ordination, that demonstrates far greater trust, generosity and willingness… Read more »

Andrew Godsall
Andrew Godsall
17 days ago
Reply to  Tom James

Tom: I understood J Kirby to be arguing that the ordination of women had destroyed (his term) the ecclesiology of the CofE. I am afraid I don’t understand that and was asking for some evidence. Are you suggesting he is arguing something different?

Malcolm Dixon
Malcolm Dixon
16 days ago
Reply to  Tom James

You say that you are a firm supporter of women’s ordination, Tom, but I do not think that you can know any women priests closely or you would not be able to say the things that you do. Do you not realise that in any diocese or episcopal area with a traditionalist bishop, any woman priest is required to swear obedience to a man who does not believe that she is a priest? It is fundamental, ontological and existential, and far too much to ask.   Yes, the bishop is required by the 5GPs to affirm that she lawfully holds… Read more »

Rod Gillis
Rod Gillis
17 days ago
Reply to  Andrew Godsall

Right On. Excellent comment. Additionally, the notion that there is/ought to be some sort of ‘equivalency’ between those advocating for the ordination of women, and those opposed, for whatever stated reason, is highly problematic. The ‘normalizing’ of discrimination against women by the institutional church (even under high sounding public policy pseudo-inclusive rhetoric) is devastating to notions of justice and conviviality, and so therefore also to a viable ecclesiology. The early experience of the Canadian church was that this kind of thing simply compounded problems.

J Kirby
J Kirby
16 days ago
Reply to  Andrew Godsall

Ordination is a matter of doctrine, whereas slavery is not. The Church may or may not have been comfortable with slavery in the past, but it has never been a doctrinal issue. Why the ordination of women in the CofE destroyed any claim it had to orthodox ecclesiology is because it was done in defiance of the rest of the Catholic Church of East and West with whom we share the one priesthood of Jesus Christ. To behave as if there is a unique Anglican priesthood over which the Church of England has the authority to determine its composition without… Read more »

Rod Gillis
Rod Gillis
16 days ago
Reply to  J Kirby

If ordination is a matter of doctrine, the best place to start is at the beginning with the doctrine of Baptism. Additionally, It may be insightful to test the tendentious assumptions in your comment against Archbishop Rowan Williams’ address to the Willebrands Symposium of 2009. I’ve attached a link from the Vatican website. If we are talking about ‘integrity’, it might be helpful to broaden the discussion by considering the integrity of various Christian anthropological assumptions, something one ought to do before proceeding to doctrines.   http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/angl-comm-docs/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_20091119_williams-willebrands_en.html

Geoffrey McLarney
Geoffrey McLarney
16 days ago
Reply to  J Kirby

I mean, those who oppose SSM in effect consign same-gender couples to unmarried cohabitation, which I wouldn’t call “upholding the sacrament of holy matrimony.”

J Kirby
J Kirby
16 days ago

It is ontologically impossible for two members of the same sex to confect a sacramental marriage. The state, and perhaps eventually the CofE, can stage as many ceremonies as it likes, but a same sex couple will leave as unmarried as when they arrived. The prophets of Baal shouted as loud as they could, yet the fire did not come down.

Rod Gillis
Rod Gillis
16 days ago
Reply to  J Kirby

So you’re going with the Baal’im to describe other Christians? Seriously? The motto of Integrity Canada is, all the sacraments for all the baptized all the time.

Warwickensis
Warwickensis
15 days ago
Reply to  Rod Gillis

Reading these comments, is it fair to say that the CofE should adopt the same position as, for example, the Church of Sweden and require the assent of all members to the ordained ministry of women? Should those in conscience opposed to OW be given no provision and thus, effectively, asked to leave? Wouldn’t it be healthier for the Church if they did?

I should be very interested in Dr Gillis’ view on these questions.

J Kirby
J Kirby
14 days ago
Reply to  Warwickensis

It is completely perverse for a church to expel members who simply stick to the historic and majority worldwide Catholic position on these issues.

Warwickensis
Warwickensis
14 days ago
Reply to  J Kirby

And yet some might feel that they are being squeezed out by a local hierarchy rather than a global approach.

David Exham
David Exham
14 days ago
Reply to  Warwickensis

Assuming that the members of the C of E are those on a parish electoral roll, the Church requires no doctrinal assent by them. I am not sure that lay members can be expelled though a parish priest could deny someone the sacrament in his church for gross moral turpitude, but not surely for beliefs. I am sure no one is suggesting that only the clergy are members of the Church.

Warwickensis
Warwickensis
14 days ago
Reply to  David Exham

Thank you, Mr Exham.

I’m thinking of some cases about a decade ago in which a female Rural Dean persuaded Resolution parishes in her Deanery to remove the Resolutions when they fell into interregnum which they did. It effectively removed the opportunity of lay members of FiF (particularly the elderly) from staying in their parish or finding somewhere nearby.

Rod Gillis
Rod Gillis
14 days ago
Reply to  Warwickensis

The questions you raise, especially the latter two, are really about the the relationship of individual conscience to the body politic of the church. The church has a very poor history of dealing with difference and dissent. However, one must be prepared to carry the burden of one’s conscientious objection rather than expecting everyone else but one’s self to do so. It seems to me that having gender segregation on the matter of a ministry of unity like episcope is extremely problematic. Additionally, if one has a very troubled conscience then one has to ask one’s self: can I remain… Read more »

Warwickensis
Warwickensis
14 days ago
Reply to  Rod Gillis

Thank you very much, Dr Gillis for your considered reply. Very much appreciated.

In the light of this should the Anglican Communion be prepared to tolerate and perhaps even support the “Continuing” Anglican Churches in providing a place where those who cannot in conscience accept the Ordination of women? Would this not make it easier for everyone?

Rod Gillis
Rod Gillis
13 days ago
Reply to  Warwickensis

Sure but first, just a friendly heads up, I’m not ‘Dr.’. I strive to know less and less about more and more, rather than more and more about less and less. 😇 Also, I do recommend the article linked in my previous comment by Wendy-Fletcher-Marsh. It outlines the role played by the Canadian House of Bishops in advancing the ordination of women. I’d be interested in how C of E commentators here view the role of their HoB on the issue comparatively. I’ve attached a new link. ( I gather the pdf link may not be working.)   As for… Read more »

Warwickensis
Warwickensis
12 days ago
Reply to  Rod Gillis

Thanks for this, Mr Gillis. I’m sorry, I got it into my head that you were a senior member of a philosophy department.

I think I was referring to Resolution IV.11 of the 1998 Lambeth Conference.
I take the point about people setting up continuing jurisdictions rather than going to Rome but, given that one objecting to OW might also object to the claims of the RCC, a “Continuing” Anglican church might be more a propos and healthy for the Anglican Communion and those Anglicans who are squeezed out by accusations of misogyny or disloyalty.

Rod Gillis
Rod Gillis
12 days ago
Reply to  Warwickensis

Thanks for the reply and the clarification re: Lambeth 1998 IV.11 which is laudable in intention i.e. IV.11 (b), “…asks the Archbishop of Canterbury and the Primates’ Meeting to consider how best to initiate and maintain dialogue with such groups with a view to the reconciliation of all who own the Anglican tradition.” I think it is important not deny Anglican entities currently outside The Communion their sense of Anglican heritage and identity. This is a broad principle implicit in the resolution.( Is there a segue possible here that may eventually include the Ordinariate, I wonder?). Dialogue and reconciliation are… Read more »

dr.primrose
dr.primrose
13 days ago
Reply to  Rod Gillis

The practical result in TEC was the same as in Canada. I don’t remember the procedural details and I’m too lazy too do the research today.   When women’s ordination was approved in TEC, there was also a conscience clause. The feeling was that bishops who did not approve of the ordination of women and who were consecrated when women’s ordination had not been approved should not be required to ordain women against their conscience. Most of them were very gracious in exercising their conscience by having another bishop in their diocese ordain women or making arrangements for a bishop… Read more »

Rod Gillis
Rod Gillis
12 days ago
Reply to  dr.primrose

Thanks for your reply dr. Primrose. The article I recommend from Fletcher-Marsh is very interesting in that it documents how the Canadian House of Bishops, and the primate of the day, Most Rev. Ted Scott, provided leadership in advancing the ordination of women in Canada. The Canadian HoB is a different creature these days. Compared to the HoB of the 60s and 70s, it has been very polarized. It’s polarization on the issue of same sex marriage in the church created the crisis in the Canadian Church & General Synod in which a handful of bishops effectively vetoed the will… Read more »

dr.primrose
dr.primrose
12 days ago
Reply to  Rod Gillis

As Jesus noted, “Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand.” (Matt.12:25; see also Mk. 3:25)   In the United States, the most famous use of this verse was a speech that Abraham Lincoln gave in 1858, a few years before the American Civil War, on the issue of slavery:   “‘A house divided against itself, cannot stand.’   “I believe this government cannot endure permanently half slave and half free.   “I do not expect the Union to be dissolved — I do not expect the house to… Read more »

Geoffrey McLarney
Geoffrey McLarney
14 days ago
Reply to  J Kirby

And yet here in the colonies, to quote Rodgers and Hammerstein, “impossible” things are happening every day!

Dave
Dave
17 days ago

The Bishops really are not doing well, and seem consistently to tie themselves up in knots. Much because they are being rather high handed then they look surprised, complain, or back track when dissent rises! E.g over same gender marriage statement which most seem to speak against now, having agreed to it, similarly on closure of churches (may well have been right thing, but badly handled), look at issues of child abuse / racism …   It is clear that a much more clear system of accountability is needed for Diocesan Bishops, including Archbishops. It seems General Synod is being… Read more »

Rowland Wateridge
Rowland Wateridge
17 days ago
Reply to  Dave

The “we” would suggest both Archbishops and the Bishop of London “after conversation with the House of Bishops”. But to make the point again, the introductory words include this:   “These new arrangements are made in the light of the pandemic“ …   In spite of all the debate here, the Archbishop’s statement demands further clarification. Was the Archbishop announcing “new arrangements” to be followed until such time as normal conditions have returned – something understandable and reasonable during a time of national crisis, or was he saying something far more radical, that these proposals are intended for all future… Read more »

Perry Butler
Perry Butler
17 days ago

As I understand it the Doctrine Commission is not proactive but responds to requests by the House of Bishops. Given the House now contains few with much theological expertise might the Bishops call upon the Doctrine Commission to advise before they go ahead with moves that will, to say the least, provoke disquiet.

Father David
16 days ago
Reply to  Perry Butler

Who is actually on the Doctrine Commission? They’ve had some great Chairmen in the recent past but I wouldn’t have a clue as to who heads it up now nor indeed who forms the Commission’s membership. It seems to me to be the Church of England’s “Immortal Invisible” Commission! When was the last time it was asked to produce a report?

Peter Owen
Admin
16 days ago
Reply to  Father David

The Doctrine Commission (and the Faith and Order Advisory Group) were replaced by the Faith and Order Commission in 2010. There is more information, including a list of members, on the Church of England website here.

Father David
16 days ago
Reply to  Peter Owen

Nobody told me about this change! So, who is on this new Commission that I haven’t heard about for the last 10 years?

Rowland Wateridge
Rowland Wateridge
16 days ago
Reply to  Father David

Follow the link, and click on ‘In more detail’. Six bishops, ten others and their secretary.

Father David
16 days ago

Thanks for that clarification and direction
Any idea when the members of the Commission last met? It seems to be a most august body.

Malcolm Dixon
Malcolm Dixon
15 days ago

This is an interesting sideline to the main issue, although you could argue that, if the Faith and Order Commission was doing its job, we wouldn’t be in the disorderly mess that we are. The current matter under discussion seems to be right in the F&OC’s bailiwick. But we’re they asked to give a ruling before last Wednesday’s statement was issued? I doubt it.

Perry Butler
Perry Butler
14 days ago
Reply to  Malcolm Dixon

I agree Malcolm. In our “Tribal and divided”church I would have thought the F&OC could profitably spend its time tackling “inter-anglican ecumenism” and providing material for theological education to enable ordinands to better fulfil they promise at ordination to believe and teach the doctrine of the Church as the Church of England has received it. In my experience ordinands often look elsewhere for their doctrine and I have sometimes wondered if their view of doctrine is along the lines of “what helps me on my spiritual journey”.But as I said F&OC can only do what the H of B’s ask… Read more »

Father David
14 days ago
Reply to  Perry Butler

So, when was the last time the bishops requested the F&OC to discuss anything and what was the last report produced by this August body?

Malcolm Dixon
Malcolm Dixon
15 days ago

‘Were’ not ‘we’re’ in my post above. It’s either predictive texting or old age to blame!

dr.primrose
dr.primrose
16 days ago

“Ordination is a matter of doctrine, whereas slavery is not. The Church may or may not have been comfortable with slavery in the past, but it has never been a doctrinal issue.”   I find this to be a very odd statement.   In Great Britain, the opposition to the slave trade was led by William Wilberforce and the Quakers. Their opposition doctrinal, based on their reading of the Bible and their perception of God’s call. Since Great Britain did not permit slavery in its home islands, their opposition was primarily directed to the slave trade. But it is very… Read more »

Stephen King
Stephen King
16 days ago

Can I return to the Anglo-Catholic versus Evangelical perspective. The new Bishop of Lewes will not ordain women, and neither does that of Maidstone. According to the latter’s website, a few parishes in east Sussex look to him for episcopal ministry. As those parishes now have an Area Bishop who does not ordain women, does it follow that the Bishop of Maidstone’s services will not be required in East Sussex?

Perry Butler
Perry Butler
16 days ago
Reply to  Stephen King

An interesting point Stephen.We wait to see how it is handled. Early on some conservative Evangelical parishes went under “flying bishops”..Ugley in Essex and Knutsford I think.

Simon Bravery
Simon Bravery
14 days ago
Reply to  Stephen King

I would have thought that conservative evangelical parishes would be happier with a conservative evangelical Bishop. Even if he eschews the mitre and cope/chasuble in favour of choir dress for his visits to such parishes, there may still be some eyebrows raised about his practice on other occasions of invoking the saints, praying for the dead and officiating at Benediction

Stephen King
Stephen King
14 days ago
Reply to  Simon Bravery

I agree that conservative evangelical parishes would probably be happier with a bishop of that persuasion (just as Anglo-Catholic parishes would probably prefer a like minded bishop). But the point of the “flying bishops” is to enable parishes opposing the ordination of women to have a bishop who shares that conviction, instead of one who ordains women. If it becomes a way for evangelical parishes to shun an Anglo-Catholic bishop, or vice versa, then does that not say that some parishes can have the bishop they want, whilst others have the one they get?

Stanley Monkhouse
13 days ago

The discussion about albs and croziers and mitres and copes is tremendously exciting. For those poor, deprived souls who may not be familiar with the works of Jonathan Swift (you should be, you really should), I give this brief summary of an episode in Gulliver’s Travels concerning a cold war between Lilliput and Blefuscu.   Traditionally, Lilliputians broke boiled eggs at the larger end. But a few generations ago, the present Emperor’s great-grandfather decreed that eggs be broken at the smaller end after his son cut himself breaking the egg on the larger end. The arguments between Big-Endians and Little-Endians… Read more »

165
0
Would love your thoughts, please comment.x
()
x