Thinking Anglicans

Pittsburgh conference videos

A number of videos are now available from this URL:http://www.anglicandecision.org/

Choose The Day is a video which was shown at the conference.
The Anglican Decision is a video (which is actually titled The Decision) that is packaged with the previous item on the DVD which was offered as a take-home item to all participants at the conference.

The first of these two features Robert Duncan, Kendall Harmon and others. A full transcript can be found here.

A full transcript of the second video can be found here. It tells the story of two parishes that left The Episcopal Church in 2004.

The opening narration is:

In this turbulent time of the Episcopal Church, your congregation is going to have an important decision to make, a decision brought on by national church leaders who have turned their back on the authority of scripture. This is the story of how two small parishes in Washington state, stood up and decided for good, between the current opinions of men and the unchanging heart of God.

The concluding narration is:

The people of St. Charles’and St. Stephens’ Parishes had a choice. They could follow a national church that’s turned its back on 2000 years of biblical orthodoxy or they could remain true to God’s unchanging holy word. Your church has the same choice. When it’s all said or done, what will you do? Will you put your faith in the changing opinions of men, or will you stand firm and remain faithful to the Lord whose faithfulness never ends?

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Emily CraggstevenObadiahslopeAnn MarieGerard Hannon Recent comment authors
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ctviewer
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ctviewer

I saw the recent video from the conference was posted on http://www.ctsix.org

k1eranc
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k1eranc

Just on a reading of the transcript (videos won’t load here), it all looks a bit surreal. Maybe they should get on with their realigning and bother someone else. Problem is, they’ll most likely end up like the Primitive Presbyterians (remember them? They’re the ones who schismed over the introduction of organs into congregational meeting places) within a generation or two – a century down the track they’ll look very queer indeed.

bls
Guest

Is there anything more transparently about the “opinions of men” than the continuing state of apoplexy about homosexuality in the Christian Church? And is there anything in the world more culturally-driven than hatred of homosexuals and homosexuality?

I’m so incredibly tired of listening to the nastiness and the insults from these people; do they never tire of slandering good and faithful people?

I hope the divorce comes very, very soon.

unbelievable
Guest
unbelievable

Oh, please. This is a real cassock-ripper, isn’t it? When do they burn the crosses?

“Leni Riefenstahl, thou should’st be living at this hour: Bob Duncan hath need of thee…”

John Henry
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John Henry

Commenting on the Notes of the Church in the Nicene Creed, Dr. Luke Timothy Johnson, a former Benedictine monk and the Robert W. Woodruff Professor of New Testament at the Chandler School of Theology, Emory University, Atlanta, GA [in his readable book, The Creed: What Christians Believe and Why it Matters (2003)] has something very interesting to say about groups like the Pittsburgh Anglican Network crowd: “Some groups within Christianity have remarkably clear boundaries. They know exactly who they are, how they are different from others, and what they demand of their members. They insist on the ‘literal’ meaning of… Read more »

steven
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steven

For all those wanting to speed a divorce in ECUSA, I think the best way to do so is by encouraging all (i.e., both liberal and conservative) Bishops to facilitate it by doing everything they can do to make it easy for dissenting parishes in their diocese to retain their church property and to realign under a neighboring (or at least proximate) diocese that is more in keeping with their (liberal or conservative) theological viewpoint. Decisions about properties that are held in common for the benefit of the whole diocese will also have to be made, as will decisions about… Read more »

David
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David

I have, over the last few weeks, led an adult Christian Ed class in a viewing and discussion of the remakable video “Bonhoeffer”. What stands out in this video is his absolute humility before God and scripture. I wish we could all (partisans on both sides) find that humility rather than the hubris which seems to prevail in these transcripts and other sorts of diatribe.

Dave
Guest
Dave

Dear bls, approving homosexual sex by appointing a Bishop who is in a homo-sexual relationship was just the presenting issue that pushed most of the rest of the Communion into finally reacting to ECUSA’s reinventing of Christian morality and faith.. If it were the only issue, and ECUSA was otherwise full of orthodox Christians, they might have been a bit humbler and sought a more acceptable way forward for us all. Even the advice of ECUSA’s own theological committee was ignored by GC2003 and the ‘consecrating’ Bishops! I am not at all surprised that orthodox Christians no longer want to… Read more »

Dave
Guest
Dave

Dear k1eranc, unbelievable and John Henry, you may have noticed that it is not just the [ABofC recognised] NACDAP alone that has rejected ECUSA’s revised faith and morality.

NACDAP are, for some reason that seems to elude the comprehension of ECUSA, receiving support from both within the Anglican Communion, and from other churches both traditional and evangelical.. Last year’s meeting in Plano, Texas received a letter of greeting from the Vatican, and this year’s meeting had contributions from eminent American evangelical leaders. There is a good reason for this…

Gerard Hannon
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Gerard Hannon

“I am not at all surprised that orthodox Christians no longer want to submit to ECUSA’s hierarchy and GC. ECUSA is controlled by people who seem intent on inventing a new religion, maybe retaining some residual Anglican trappings.” – Dave The writer just doesn’t seem to understand anything that doesn’t fit his own very narrow definition of “truth.” It seems hopeless to try to reason with his exclusionary approach, so let it suffice to say that Dave, and a distinct minority of ECUSA bishops/priests/laity, belong to the wing that denies an evolution of the understanding of Scripture. That is, by… Read more »

bls
Guest

As I said, Dave, I hope the divorce comes very, very soon. Can’t happen soon enough, in fact.

Augustus Meriwether
Guest

I’m hearing more and more references to the Ugandan Martyrs. The two references in the ‘Choose This Day’ and ‘Uganda’s Martyrdom’ films, appear to be distortions – wicked attempts to equate homosexuality with paedophilia in the viewers mind. Even if they were not distortions. The story is irrelevent. I’m amazed people are taken in by them still. Very dodgy way of furthering your cause. Even if I was a conservative, I wouldn’t trust a word they said now. If anyone has any reputable links that give authoratitive information on these martyrdoms, I’d gratefully receive them and make any corrections and… Read more »

Göran Koch-Swahne
Guest

Yes, Dave. Schism.

steven
Guest
steven

Gerard: Apparently there is a limit to the amount of “diversity” that can exist in a religous organization without disrupting cohesiveness. At some point, the center cannot hold. Liberals don’t want to be in a communion where the opinions and beliefs of dem mean ol’ theological conservatives are given any real weight (ask Merseymike). The same is true for conservatives vis-a-vis a communion dominated by theological liberals (e.g., Spong and his kin). At this point the two sides are too polarized for compromise. The “center” in Anglican theology has been its classical via media, which has always seemed capable of… Read more »

Marshall
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Marshall

Dave: I would be careful about noting that ++Rowan has “recognized” the NACDAP and AAC. After all, there has been great discussion about that word in the General Convention 2003 resolution on clergy informally blessing non-marital unions. It can mean either “acknowledged awareness of” or “approved of.” As most leaders and members of NACDAP have not officially left ECUSA, they continue to be Anglican in Communion with the See of Canterbury through the ECUSA (regardless of any other connections through which they consider themselves Anglican). ++Rowan has certainly “acknowledged awareness of” NACDAP. Whether he has “approved of” them remains to… Read more »

Marshall
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Marshall

Having reviewed the transcript of “Choose This Day,” it seems to reflect confusion among lay persons about how bishops and deputies to General Convention become so. Everything in ECUSA happens by vote. Vestries are elected by members of congregations in annual parish meetings. Delegates to diocesan conventions are elected by vestry members. Bishops (as required) and Deputies to General Covention (each three years) are elected by diocesan conventions. As the result of that process, presumably they really do reflect the majority of active Episcopalians – those able, and also suffieciently commited, to attend parish meetings. Nor do we do this… Read more »

AnnMarie
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AnnMarie

Steven, Although I will agree that there are some “liberals” who may wish for a split, I would disagree that it is ultimately what we all wish for. Talking to the liberals around me, the support for a split is there if we are forced to choose between denying what we have come to belief is God’s will for humanity (and contrary to popular “conservative” opinion we are very biblically based in our beliefs and nothing riles me more than to hear that because I support same-sex relationships I have abandoned the authority of scripture, which is patently untrue.) and… Read more »

Gerard Hannon
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Gerard Hannon

“Liberals don’t want to be in a communion where the opinions and beliefs of dem mean ol’ theological conservatives are given any real weight (ask Merseymike). The same is true for conservatives vis-a-vis a communion dominated by theological liberals (e.g., Spong and his kin). At this point the two sides are too polarized for compromise.” – Steven Steven, I don’t disagree with your basic analysis that the gap between the poles of the Anglican Communion may ultimately require some kind of separation. But, I don’t believe that we will end up with homogenized groups of Christians, so there will still… Read more »

Dave
Guest
Dave

Dear Gerrard and Göran, I’m still believing and practicing [almost exactly] the same faith and morality as taught by Jesus and the Apostles (or at least trying to). It is you who have moved away from me! Personally, I can’t see that I could claim to be a Christian if I didn’t try to follow Christ: His way and His teachings, and those of His Apostles. I can’t simply rationalise away those that don’t, in my judgement, seem “just”, “fair” or “humane”. Such rationalisations just lead you to end up redefining what you will believe and what you will obey… Read more »

Alan Harrison
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Alan Harrison

Augustus Meriwether wrote:
“If anyone has any reputable links that give authoratitive information on these martyrdoms, I’d gratefully receive them and make any corrections and retractions on my blog that may be necessary.”

I suggest doing a Google search for “Charles Lwanga”. This will lead to reliable Roman Catholic sources on the martyrdom of S. Charles and his companions. I would have to say in fairness that those sources will not be particularly helpful to anyone arguing that King Mwanga’s vice was paedophilia, since the targets of his lust included men aged up to about 30.

*Christopher
Guest

I do not doubt the faith or existence of St. Charles, I do doubt using this instance to suggest that rape=homosexuality. This is a specious argument. Forcing rape is not the same thing as homosexuality. If that were the issue, then heterosexuals had best be celibate given the vast majority of rapes throughout history by potentates and not have been of men raping women. And of course, given the many virgin female martyrs who went to their death instead of being raped or married off should give us all pause just as much as St. Charles. Like Lots daughters though… Read more »

Gerard Hannon
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Gerard Hannon

“As the old saying goes: “You follow Him your way and I’ll follow Him His way!” – Dave This seems a typical dismissive response, Dave, and I could say the very same thing, and it would mean no more than your use of that phrase. I am, indeed, as loyal to the message of Christ, and to the presence of Christ in my life, as any man or woman, but I am also as flawed as any man or woman. Not only am I not worthy, I can never be worthy; it took me a while to appreciate that. Therefore,… Read more »

steven
Guest
steven

TO Dave: It is better to save your breath. Many have tried before you, but it is a losing battle. TO AnnMarie: Someone will have the upper hand in terms of votes and power–either conservatives or liberals. Some things will either be allowed or forbidden denominationally. As the old adage goes, in the essentials unity, in the non-essentials liberty, and in all things charity. I appreciate your efforts at charity, but believe that you have failed to recognize that we have passed beyond the point of “non-essentials” where “liberty” of choice is possible. For liberals and conservatives the current situation… Read more »

Paul
Guest
Paul

Steven, what is “essential” to you or to me about the domestic arrangements of the Bishop of New Hampshire?

And of what temporality was John Spong monarch? And in what way and to what degree did you and your fellow conservatives “restrain” him prior to or after his retirement, or if you failed to do so what is your point?

Dave
Guest
Dave

“To Dave: It is better to save your breath. Many have tried before you, but it is a losing battle.”

Dear Steven, Maybe you are right, but I think that a conservative view needs expressing – or *others* get the impression that no-one disagrees with them!

Dave
Guest
Dave

Gerrard wrote: “As the old saying goes: “You follow Him your way and I’ll follow Him His way!” This seems a typical dismissive response, Dave, and I could say the very same thing, and it would mean no more than your use of that phrase. I am, indeed, as loyal to the message of Christ, and to the presence of Christ in my life, as any man or woman, but I am also as flawed as any man or woman. Not only am I not worthy, I can never be worthy; it took me a while to appreciate that.” Dear… Read more »

steven
Guest
steven

Paul: If the issues here are not essential to you then you will obviously have no objection to Robinson being deposed and replaced as Bishop, and with actions of this type being forbidden in the future. Please don’t insult my intelligence. There is obviously something essential to liberals here, or they would not be supporting and holding the line on what ECUSA has done. People do not risk schism and continue on a path towards schism over trivia. As to Spong–he’s the theologically deformed offspring of liberalism. His heritage shows clearly, and if you find him distasteful, you should re-consider… Read more »

Göran Koch-Swahne
Guest

O no, Bishop Spong is the traditionalist’s “liberal” ;=)

Gerard Hannon
Guest
Gerard Hannon

Steven: Your comments to me, and later to Paul, about your defense of trying to demonize the “liberal” wing of the Anglican Communion by dragging the name of retired Bishop Spong into the discussion, is beyond belief. I am not responsible for what the retired Bishop has said, nor is he responsible for what I believe; indeed, our views are very far apart, and Bishop Spong, and the few who may find his beliefs appropriate, is a minuscule minority in the Anglican Communion. Spong is no more the result (nor the cause) of liberal Church thinking than any individual Bishop… Read more »

Ann Marie
Guest
Ann Marie

Stephen, While I will agree that it is entirely likely that in a number of cases either “side” will get the “upper hand”, I also believe that there will be cases when both will co-exist in peace with neither “side” having to deny what they believe is right. I disagree that it is impossible to co-exist and believe that I am not alone. My diocese is on the “conservative” side but I have no problem remaining within it provided it does not demand I abandon what I have come to believe is truly God’s will. I believe that in both… Read more »

Steven
Guest
Steven

Gerard: Shrug. We’ll never agree on these matters–no point in trying. Ann Marie: I appreciate your thoughtful post. And yes, there is one possibility I could see working (maybe)–although it is so miniscule a possibility that I hesitate to mention it. Nor does it present some type of glorious resolution–it is merely (I think) slightly less painful and disruptive. It was earlier suggested in passing by Rowan Williams when he mentioned moving to parallel non-geographic jurisdictions. (At least, if my memory serves me correctly, he said something of this type–I’m sure Simon or someone else will be able to clarify… Read more »

Obadiahslope
Guest
Obadiahslope

Rowan Williams contibuted an article ‘The structures of unity’ for New Directions September 03 which he wrote before the ECUSA convention of that year had been held. It was prescient. Here is a key passage: “At times, paradoxically, both sides lose sight of the supernatural nature of the Church. The `revisionist’ may assume that the Church here and now determines its policies and limits and what it decides as a matter of current policy settles the question, so that a dissident from the new consensus becomes, ipso facto, not worth listening to. But the `traditionalist’ can do just the same,… Read more »

steven
Guest
steven

Thanks Obadiahslope. I fear we are heading for the latter by not seizing the initiative and creating the former. But that and a buck might get you a cup of coffee. Nothins gonna happen ’til the big bosses decide that the status quo ante cannot be maintained in the new situation, and that its worthwhile to make a big change.

Steven

Emily Cragg
Guest

There are sheep and goats, wheat and tares, wolves and lambs. Since none of us is any judge of a person’s heart, we sort of have to put up with everybody; and if we can’t do that, move to where we >can< put up with everybody. I just moved from Texas back to California because I was so uncomfortable with the Texas mind-set. Here in Northern California, the mindset is very “liberal,” and I’m not that either. “Your word is a lamp to my foot and a light to my roadway,” even when I can’t fathom what people around me… Read more »