THINKING ANGLICANS

Resolution A161 rejected by ECUSA Deputies

Update midnight Tuesday
Stand Firm reports that the HoB is debating a new resolution in place of 162 which represents most of 161.

A161, which now includes A162, has been voted down by both orders in the House of Deputies.

Voting by dioceses:
LAY: 38 yes 53 no 18 divided: Motion fails
CLERGY: 44 yes 53 no 14 divided: Motion fails

(A divided vote i.e. 2-2, counts as a No.)

Rachel Zoll for Associated Press Episcopalians Reject Ban on Gay Bishops

Here is Jim Naughton’s commentary.

And here is further analysis by Sarah Dylan Breuer.

Reuters Episcopal Church group rejects curb on gay bishops

The Times James BoneBoston tea party’ as US radicals defy Canterbury
Ruth Gledhill Schism threat after failure of middle way and If I were…

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AKB
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AKB

That is the clarity that the world has been asking for…

Merseymike
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Merseymike

Should think so too.It simply went too far in kow-towing to Williams and his conservative masters.

Steven
Guest
Steven

It’s beginning to look like a clean sweep for the libs. What’s been more interesting to me over the last few years has been the transformation in attitudes as surprise and disbelief has morphed into a settled liberal determination to do it OUR way and to have it OUR way, and the rest of the you can be ******. So, now the ball will come to rest in the lap of the ABC and things get REALLY intersting (not just in TEC, but worldwide). The ABC’s going to have a heck of a time working out a compromise that will… Read more »

Sarah Dylan Breuer
Guest

There is coverage and analysis (as it develops) in The Witness:

http://www.thewitness.org

… and all of The Witness’ coverage of General Convention 2006 is here:

http://www.thewitness.org/topic.php?tid=33

Richard G. Pugh
Guest
Richard G. Pugh

Where does an Episcopalian in the United States go to worship in the true Anglican tradition. I have not abandoned my local Episcopalian church..it has abandoned me. Were I a Baptist or a Roman Catholic, my views would have a home, but not in my local, state and national church. Any help…appreciated. Richard in Reno

J. C. Fisher
Guest
J. C. Fisher

“settled liberal determination to do it OUR way and to have it OUR way, and the rest of the you can be ******.”

Steven, you analysis would have the slightest *whiff* of Truth, were TEC to *DEMAND* all Anglican churches ordain/consecrate women as priests/bishops (nevermind gays!)…

…which we don’t. And won’t.

As it is, it just shows that your rhetoric is well and truly ******. ;-/

Dave
Guest
Dave

I’ve go to agree with Mike that it is probably a good outcome in the long-run.

Thought ECUSA still has a day to loose it’s nerve, I hope that Truth will out… and, therefore, that a proper resolution can be arranged for dissenters who do agree with the normative Anglican beliefs and teachings.

Renford Walsh
Guest
Renford Walsh

I live in Columbus, OH but I’m encuntering difficulty meeting traditionalist members.

Is there any information about where they’re holding evening services during this convention as the liberals at Trinity in Columbus are doing ?

LaurenceRoberts
Guest
LaurenceRoberts

The C of E emerged from the loins of a homicidal King who wanted lots of shags, divorces — and thought God had put him on the Throne. You’d think this would make us more tolerant, more ironic and laugh more –or at least beware notions of our divine right-ness (and be aware of our pitfalls) !) 🙂 The Anglican Communion has always been pretty much a federation or loose fellowhip that evolved by chance. It can continue to be useful, it seems to me, as long as it is modest,low-key and practical. No good trying to be stream-lined, —… Read more »

Ordinand
Guest
Ordinand

It doesn’t look like there will be any ECUSA reps or TEC reps or “Schori fans” at the Lambeth 2008!

Lois Keen
Guest
Lois Keen

Greetings to all, AFter GC2003 “conservative” minded Episcopalian Christians were reminded that the deputies to GC are elected at the diocesan conventions, and the delegates to diocesan conventions are elected in parish annual meetings. It was strongly urged that those who wanted a different outcome at GC2006 do all they could to elect parish delegates, and GC deputies with a different viewpoint, in order to turn things around. In the meantime, this liberal (revisionist, activist, pansexualist, as labeled by Virtue Online’s commenters) female priest fully expected Bp. Duncan or Bp. Iker to run for Presiding Bishop. No one expected either… Read more »

Steven
Guest
Steven

JC: Tsk. Tsk. Don’t get miffed. I am, after all, speaking figuratively (even if a bit colorfully), nor was my comment directed at you personally. Anyhow, I’d rather you responded to the second part of my post than the first. The first deals with the past, which can’t be changed and about which there will never be agreement between liberals and traditionalists. The second with the future, which is still before us. So, what is your guess for the future? Where do we go from here? Is it still possible to work together on this? Steven

Merseymike
Guest
Merseymike

But, Dave, the same must them be organised for the sizeable minority in the UK who agree with ECUSA.

Only fair, don’t you think – unless you really do wish only one voice to be allowed, which you are constantly accusing liberals of.

Oh, and the ‘normative’ stuff won’t do. There has to be a level playing field, and that means that arrangements need to be made for those of us who would prefer to look towards ECUSA

Ryan
Guest
Ryan

“”Who is my neighbor?” he answered with a story about one of the most despised persons of his day giving the unconditional loving care that the righteous would not give. The Samaritan did not find out first if the person was repentant. He didn’t preach to him about changing his “lifestyle” to one in line with scripture. He just took care of him.”

Are you saying Jesus condoned that which made him despised?

Ryan
Guest
Ryan

I think we have consider what God is telling us in all this. His ways are not our ways. Instead of fretting over divisions in the Church, God, working through this GC is sending a clear message to his flock. It couldn’t be clearer. Schism is the best. The parting of ways between liberals & Christians has to be an amicable part, but it must be a part. Even if for some reason we were able to remain with the Spongites in communion with Canterbury, two religions (or 100 religions if you wish to be honest) cannot occupy the same… Read more »

Cynthia Gilliatt
Guest
Cynthia Gilliatt

I am sorry that Bishop Duncan seems to think the Boston Tea Party was a bad thing. As an American, I think it was a good thing. Perhaps Bp. Duncan should think about emmigration. I am sure there are many in his own diocese who would pony up for the airfare.

Lionel Deimel
Guest

Tomorrow is another day, of course, but if the Episcopal Church’s efforts to respond to the Windsor Report end where they are now, I’m not sure that anyone in the church will be very happy with the result. Many will agree, however, that it could have been worse. Part of the problem, I think, is that the legislative process has been too clever by half. First, the Special Commission proposed 11 resolutions. Irrespective of their content, dealing with so many resolutions seriously increased the workload on General Convention. Next, the Special Committee held hearings and proceeded to make substantial changes… Read more »

Göran Koch-Swahne
Guest

So this is where the co-dependency, ineptness and duplicity of past and present Cantuars have left the Anglican Communion! The 2 Houses of the 2006 General Convention of the Episcopal church of the Americas have elected a lady Presiding Bishop and the House of Deputies have thrown out the “Windsor language” of “moratorium” as incompatible with Canons (all knew this all along), rejecting the amended variety altogether. Whatever may happen in today’s joint session, it seems to me that little else is left but for Dr Rowan to present his excuses to Her Majesty the Queen, and retire to the… Read more »

Robert Christian
Guest
Robert Christian

Laurence Robert, well said. We certainly include all types and there are many things that we all have in common. we most definitely don’t think alike but as I’ve said, there is more to Jesus than as an atonement sacrifice, repentance and tranformative power of the gospel (at least in the narrow vision I get here in Pittsburgh). Maybe we liberals and conservatives could start by working at a Saturday Soup Bowl or sorting food at the local food bank. How bout opening the BCP and just having a general worship without having to agree theologically on every point in… Read more »

Leonardo Ricardo
Guest
Leonardo Ricardo

Isn’t this something? I never would have thought we would have a female Presiding Bishop/Primate elect because that kinda “choice” may have up-set the applecart/teacart with all the determined folks in the Anglican Communion who “insist” they know GOD better and his “will” for us better than we do. Isn’t it something that as much as we love and respect our Christian “family” in the Anglican Communion (even though we’ve been shunned/demoted/tossed-out at the ACC and snidely snubbed, jeered and generally “oppressed” by some of the noisier Primates) that TEC House of Deputies wasn’t willing to allow the AC to… Read more »

Jon
Guest

What I’m hearing around the blogosphere from those who were there is that it isn’t anything like a clear statement. Conservatives opposed it because it wasn’t conservative enough and liberals opposed it because it wasn’t liberal enough. Given that those two groups make up ~40% of TEC it could be hard to get anything past that accurately reflects the mind of TEC other than a statement that we aren’t of one mind on the subject.

Jon

Nersen
Guest
Nersen

Merseymike – absolutely, it is only fair to let people in all regions follow their conscience.

Sad to see certain “liberal” ECUSA bishops taking vicars to court over property because they do not want to give these vicars to freedom to follow their consciences.

I am more liberal than those bishops! Very happy to see the realignment happening.

Tim
Guest

Richard G Pugh says: “Where does an Episcopalian in the United States go to worship in the true Anglican tradition.”

Probably your local Episcopal church. This is where you’ll find the understanding that other people do things differently rather than insistence that one doctrinal way is right.

Ryan
Guest
Ryan

I think he said the “true Anglican tradition” not the Spong-ite “Christianity is whatever you want it to be” tradition.

Christopher Shell
Guest
Christopher Shell

Re Boston Tea Party The Boston Tea party would have been a good thing if the Americans had by that time shown themselves capable of responsibility and autonomy. Far from that, they still retained the ‘have it our own way’ spirit as manifested in the wiping out of the native Americans. They were not mature enough for the responsibility. Flash forward to today. We have an America which politically still sometimes acts solipsistically. Which gives statistics for America as though they were statistics for the world (as though America were the world). How can we be sure that they (or,… Read more »

Ruth
Guest
Ruth

LaurenceRoberts has it exactly right. That’s why I’m an Episcopalian — so I can worship with and learn from people with a variety of perspectives and experiences — because none of us has it right and we all have a lot to learn. A church that is nothing more than a mutual admiration society or a camp for indoctrination of “right thinking” isn’t worth much, in my view. And therein lies the tragedy of this current crisis. If there is a schism where do I go to worship? The church is not made up of liberals and conservatives who can… Read more »

Tim
Guest

Methinks Ryan misses the point. As far as I’m aware, ECUSA, SEC and CoE have all had very broad congregations and generally got on fine with each other for a few centuries. This “whole AC is right-wing” malarky is only a recent misfeature.

drdanfee
Guest
drdanfee

I am reminded of Saint Yogi Berra: It ain’t over till it’s over. And, even after the last day of this GC, it still will not be over. We are all still here. We are all still together on this planet. The constant spin from the right (or from the left or from the middles, for that matter) that this latest thing, whatever it is, now means it is over has itself shifted several times in several different ways. At various moments, we were supposed to think: (1) It’s over because African bishops are flying in to save orthodox believers… Read more »

Lou
Guest
Lou

What a strange and interesting coalition to defeat the resolution. Perhaps this is the very best possible outcome — an experssion of the truth of the matter. The struggle to find a “middle way” could have resulted in a weak and not really sincere statement of “regret” when the plain truth is that the majority in TEC are not sorry that +Gene was elected and consecrated and see no need to repent over same-sex blessings. I am one of them.
Lou

Ryan
Guest
Ryan

“Oh, and Ryan — “the parting of the ways between liberals and Christians” ? You’re kidding, right?”

Unfortunately I’m not. I really don’t see any potential compromise between the Christians & Gnostics within ECUSA. There will have be a formal schism.

Charles
Guest
Charles

Ryan – “Unfortunately I’m not. I really don’t see any potential compromise between the Christians & Gnostics within ECUSA”

This statement typifies the difference between the arrogance of the liberals, and the arrogance of the conservatives.

At least we (liberals) don’t accuse you (conservatives) of not being Christian. As my teenager kids would say “Who made you boss over us?”

Dave
Guest
Dave

Dear Merseymike and Nersen, I agree. I’d much rather let churches choose the AC or the EC, than have this endless internal strain due to the “two religions” conflict. (By two religions I mean revealed Christianity and modern Christianity, not catholics and evangelicals.. who actually have very similar assumptions).

Ruth
Guest
Ruth

Late in the day for a comment on this thread, I know, but Ryan, I’m afraid you missed my point. I was suggesting that your false dichotomy between “Christians and liberals” (i.e., your judgment that your fellow Christians’ faith is not as good as yours and your belief that it is your place to say so) is exactly the kind of failure to love that I was mourning. Logs and motes, Ryan. Now, please excuse me while I see if I can’t get this tree out of my own eye . . .