Thinking Anglicans

Virginia: Monday reports

Updated again Monday evening

BBC radio interviewed Martyn Minns on the Today programme. Listen here (3 min 20sec). There is a reference to what he said at Ekklesia see here.

Update
Jane Little has a further report for the BBC at Schism looming for Anglican Communion.
Later Update The BBC has this updated profile of Archbishop Peter Akinola. He is quoted:

…Archbishop Akinola – a man known for his outspoken views on homosexuality – says he is thankful to God over the decision.

“Once there’s a crack in the wall, you are likely to have all sorts creeping in” he told the BBC website in Abuja.

“When we began to notice these cracks a few years back, we did try as much as humanly possible under God to patch up these cracks,” he added.

But, the Episcopal Church in the United States of America (Ecusa) refused to back down.

“Since the leadership of the church in America keeps doing everything we thought they would not do, those who don’t agree with them have chosen to go where they want to go and I thank God,” he said…

The Guardian has a report by Stephen Bates Two Anglican parishes lead anti-gay split from US church but the Telegraph has nothing yet an afternoon report: Virginia churches split from US Anglicans and The Times has only a brief note. Ruth Gledhill has however got a more detailed report on her blog headlined Property battles loom as US churches quit.

Laurie Goodstein of the New York Times has Episcopal Parishes in Virginia Vote to Secede. An earlier version of that report is here.

Julia Duin of the Washington Times has 8 Virginia flocks break away.

Alberta Lindsey of the Richmond Times-Dispatch has Seven Va. Episcopal churches break away.

The Pittsburgh Tribune-Review interviewed Bishop Robert Duncan Episcopal bishop: Church torn apart.

See here (URL will not last more than a day) for the front page picture in the Washington Post . Text of report previously linked is here.

Reuters Virginia churches break from U.S. Episcopal Church
Associated Press later version of Episcopal Parishes in Va. Break Away.

Update
A video of the entire CANA press conference (about 40 minutes) can be viewed here. Unfortunately, it is impossible to hear the questions during the question period, only the answers are audible.

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Richard HelmerGöran Koch-SwahneDoug Taylor-Weissmynsterpreost (=David Rowett)Cheryl Clough Recent comment authors
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Merseymike
Guest

One thing which does intrigue – Liverpool diocese, which is largely moderate evangelical, with a Bishop with a conservative background who appears to have shifted towards a more open position in recent years, has a link with Virginia .

Any inside knowledge as to their view?

Neil
Guest
Neil

Nobody yet seems to be commenting on the new position this puts Archbishop Akinola in. I fail to see now on what grounds his presence is theologically acceptable in any official Anglican forums. We Anglicans have no pope to issue anathemas, but will his new breakaway church have similarities to the Lefebvrists? I hope more light will be shone upon the scheming in Nigeria…

Prior Aelred
Guest

So how is CANA (as a mission of Nigeria) different from AMiA (as a mission of Rwanda & Southeast Asia)?

counterlight
Guest
counterlight

++Akinola now becomes the first Anglican Archbishop in the United States. So, the history of Anglicanism in the USA appears to have come full circle; from a rump of the English State Church that most people in America fled from, to the Episcopal Church, the first independent Anglican Church with a constitutional democratic polity without an archbishop, back to those signing up to be an outpost of a foreign archbishop.

Athos
Guest
Athos

Neil
I can’t see how Akinola can be viewd as heading up a beakaway church when it is TEC that has broken away from received doctrine handed down by the universal church

Merseymike
Guest
Merseymike

But surely whilst TEC remains part of the Anglican Communion, any precipitate action is a breakaway, and of course, entirely against what the Windsor report said which the conservatives welcomed – seems as if they welcomed only the bits they were prepared to follow themselves.

Pluralist
Guest

It seems that Bishop Martyn Minns is slightly embarrassed about the language of Archbishop Akinola, which he also described as “scriptural” and uncomfortable (BBC Radio 4 interview). I hope he does not have any difficulties with the new boss.

Steven
Guest
Steven

Despite the fog and confusion inherent in many conflicts there is often a point where one can say the battle began. The sides have been mustering their forces for some time. There could be no compromise by the nature of the case. The only solution was an amicable division. This has not happened. Now the battle is joined. There will still be opportunities for liberals to back-off and allow this division to take place. Let us pray that they will do so, allowing Anglicans of all stripes to spend their time, energy and money on something more worthwhile. Steven

Pluralist
Guest

Having watched and listened to this broadcast all I’d say is to wish them the best! In the end people will do what they will do. I wonder whether anyone is being tempted at that end of events, such as via that Reform and friends covenant, for a CAE or CAGB?

Dallas Bob
Guest
Dallas Bob

I am saddened by the uproar in our beloved Episcopal Church but I must admit I am relieved that this is coming to an end soon. The radical conservatives are really nothing more than 700 clubbers with whom I have very little in common. I really don’t lose a lot of sleep because my Church is not in communion with Falwell, Robertson, et. al. I suspect I will feel the same way when all the Roseberrys, Yates, Duncans, and Akinolas of the world disappear from the radar screen. TEC will lose about 10% of its membership, but that 10% is… Read more »

Robert Christian
Guest
Robert Christian

I feel that Nigeria/CANA and Rwanda are as out of compliance as TEC concerning the Windsor Report (and both the Nigerian and Rwandan churches were out of compliance well before GC2006. TEC’s blasted for not being in compliance but no one ever mentions the other provinces that have not upheld their end of the process. As far as TFC and Truro are concerned, When my father left the Roman Catholic Church he didn’t get to take his little section of it with him. Why do these people think they get to keep the church? If you don’t like the church… Read more »

Shawn+
Guest
Shawn+

Athos,

Ignatius is part of that tradition, and essentially said, “Right or Wrong, MY BISHOP.” Minns+ (or is it now +Minns?) broke from his bishop to place himself and his congregation under another bishop. From what I see, the earliest tradition of the centrality of the episcopacy has been violated, both by the (+)Minns(+) and by ++Akinola.

Cynthia Gilliatt
Guest
Cynthia Gilliatt

“A video of the entire CANA press conference (about 40 minutes) can be viewed here. Unfortunately, it is impossible to hear the questions during the question period, only the answers are audible.”

Isn’t that exactly the reality of CANA and fellow-travelers? No need for questions; we have all the answers! An accidental icon of the truth.

Davis d'Ambly
Guest
Davis d'Ambly

Dallas Bob says;
“TEC will lose about 10% of its membership, but that 10% is a cancer in the body, actively trying to destroy it. Once the cancer is removed, the body can begin to heal itself.”

Sadly this is what some Global South people have said about TEC as well.

I pray for them and for them and for the Church.

Athos
Guest
Athos

Shawn

Episcopacy can only be a force for Unity if it holds onto Truth. In the prayer for the Church Militant (1662) which expunds classical Anglicanism we pray that the Church may agree in the truth…and live in unity. If the CofE felt that unity with Bishops was essential even if the Episcopate was heretical there would have been no English Reformation. As Hooker was to write “what they call schism we call our reasonable service unto God..”

Michael
Guest
Michael

It is all too easy for charismatic figures with a gift for rhetoric to use their skills to feed on people’s fears and reinforce their convictions, which may be misguided. When figures, such as Akinola, state “Once there’s a crack in the wall, you are likely to have all sorts creeping in,” some people, who may be struggling with difficult issues, may be inclined to fall in line. I have no doubt that leaders, such as Martyn Minns, believe that their positions is solidly supported by the Gospel; however, from a more human perspective, which values relationships between bodies of… Read more »

Dallas Bob
Guest
Dallas Bob

Just a quick question – How has The Episcopal Church tried to destroy the Global South? What has TEC demanded of them? Has TEC called for their expulsion from the Anglican Communion? No. Has TEC tried to say they can’t elect whom they want as their local bishops? No. Has TEC threatened not to attend primates meetings or take communion with them? No and No. The Global South has tried to do all of the above to the TEC. The TEC has done none of the above to them. I guess if you disagree with the Global South about their… Read more »

John Henry
Guest
John Henry

CNN has just announced that the Diocese of Virginia will not take legal action against the secessionist churches of Truro and Falls Church for at least another month to regain control of the churchy properties. There will be time for negotiation.

StAndTheolStud
Guest

I am torn with regard to the decision of my church. “Isn’t that exactly the reality of CANA and fellow-travelers” Unfortunately I believe many conservatives could point the same figure at the progressives/liberals in TEC. We have asked many questions about the the actions taken in the church, and received no pertinent answers, we are told much about the love, justice and grace of God for individuals, and we agree, that was never the question. The question is over which moralities the church should be seen as advocating. Both sides undoubtedly see their side ideally as loving, just, merciful, and… Read more »

StAndTheolStud
Guest

Shawn+, Of course at the time ‘episkopos’ didn’t mean exactly what it means now. That tradition has developed, which is fine so long as it doesn’t develop away from or against scripture. I’m fairly sure no Anglican or Episcopalian would disagree with that. Not that that necessarily means you are wrong about Minns and Akinola, it just means that in a church which is neither Eastern Orthodox, nor Roman Catholic, you have to be just a bit careful about quoting the ‘tradition’ as an authority. You have to nuance your argument rather than simply proof texting I suppose. Maybe summed… Read more »

J. C. Fisher
Guest
J. C. Fisher

“There will still be opportunities for liberals to back-off”

Sadly, if you backs off from bullies, they only bully you some more.

TEC *must* resist: we’d be ignoring the Gospel imperative if we don’t.

However, I pray that we do so, in the Way of Jesus. Full of the Holy, *Gentle* Spirit.

Christoferos
Guest
Christoferos

Dallas Bob- For you to put John Yates (of the Falls Church) in the company of Jerry Falwell puts you in the company of the blatantly, wittingly, and woefully ignorant… open-minded indeed! You have nothing but straw-man arguments and ad hominem attacks toward those you do not even know, simply because the content of their faith matches that of the Apostles, while at the same time advancing no substantive argument of your own that what TEC has done has been anything but provocative… I know John Yates personally, and he has struggled in prayer for years over these decisions, in… Read more »

Cheryl Clough
Guest

Walls falling is not such a bad thing when you read the bible. e.g. Isaiah 2:12-18; Jeremiah 51:44 & 51:58, Ezekiel 13:10-17, Zechariah 2:4-13, Isaiah 30:8-17 The latter includes: “Therefore, this is what the Holy One of Israel says: “Because you have rejected this message,relied on oppression and depended on deceit, this sin will become for you like a high wall, cracked and bulging, that collapses suddenly, in an instant.”

NP
Guest
NP

Dallas Bob asks what TEC is demanding of the GS…..the answer is that they are demanding that the GS and the rest of the AC pretends they are the same religion when they are no longer in line with the vast majority of Anglicans. TEC is asking for silence so they can take that as consent…..but the rest of the church is tired of its silence and tolerance being abused in this way. TEC is asking a lot and has always done so because it has some cash….but it still seems to lack the confidence to go it alone as… Read more »

Karen B.
Guest
Karen B.

Simon, thanks as always for a nice roundup. In case it’s helpful to folks, I’ve been working to try and compile in one place the exact details of ASA, membership and the vote details for each of the 15 VA parishes having disaffiliated or expected to disaffiliate from ECUSA.

Here’s the link. It’s still a work in progress, I’ll update it as I get additional information.

http://www.standfirminfaith.com/index.php/site/article/1702/

Ford Elms
Guest
Ford Elms

Well, NP, 500 years ago, the Church of England was tiny, and, whatever the theological differences and the creeping Calvinism with which she had become infected, she broke with the vast majority of Western Christians because the English king, the son of a usurper, was unsure of his throne and was a womanizer. I don’t see that being “a very small global denomination” is that unfamiliar to Anglicans. We started out justifying lust, at least on the part of monarchs.

NP
Guest
NP

I agree Ford….worse than humble beginnings for the CofE – perhaps the continuing link to the state is partly responsible for the corruption destroying the church today

Ford Elms
Guest
Ford Elms

Not just ties to the state, but to society in general. The church ‘has issues’ with homosexuality, to put it mildly, but is afraid to repent of its compromises with the State. Usury alone is doing far more to destroy families than two loving people ever could by getting married, yet you hear nothing about it. We are far too tied to the world, and the world knows it, which is why we have no credibility.

Leonardo Ricardo
Guest
Leonardo Ricardo

“In the meantime, those of us who are appalled by your operating style’s inconsistency with the fruit of the Spirit, grief-stricken that our beloved denomination has wandered of the Christian, let alone Anglican, reservation, will pick up the pieces from the aftermath of TEC’s belligerently arrogant actions to look for an Anglican jurisdiction that will have us. If you will not miss us, I daresay the feeling is quite mutual” Christoferos Sorry Christoferos, you’re no longer able to play pretend (appalled or not)..God demands (he told me personally) that we face REALITY occassionally and this is one of those historic… Read more »

Göran Koch-Swahne
Guest

Athos wrote: “If the CofE felt that unity with Bishops was essential even if the Episcopate was heretical there would have been no English Reformation.”

So you admit this is a Revolution against tradition?

Steven
Guest
Steven

JCF:

Your response is absurd. How is backing-off and allowing an equitable division “giving in to bullies”? You turn reality upside down when you imply that it is bullying for conservatives to want to make an equitable division and re-align. What IS bullying is for ECUSA (the bigger, more powerful party) to persecute and litigate against conservatives who simply want to withdraw with their share of the property and continue as the Church of God under different leadership.

Steven

Göran Koch-Swahne
Guest

StAndTheolStud wrote: “We have been asking whether the innovations proposed are true to the witness of scripture.”

However, I am afraid the real questions are:

Whose innovations are Innovations?

And who gets to decide this?

(I’ll have a look at your chum’s writing. Copying it into Word to be able to read it properly (my eyesight is deteriorating by the month) my impression is, however, that this is what happens when the quod erat demonstrandum is taken for granted.

But tomorrow is day off, so I’ll be back).

Bruce Garner
Guest
Bruce Garner

What is getting very little attention is that neither Truro nor Fall Church have done much in the diocese of Virginia for nearly a decade except whine and complain. These folks are mostly a group of middle aged and older (allegedly straight) white males who are trying to recapture the church they think existed in the middle 1950’s. They use gender and human sexuality issues as a cover but the true issue is power and authority and who exercises it and over whom. The Global South is trying to create what amounts to “the Worldwide Puritan Communion” which is not… Read more »

Leonardo Ricardo
Guest
Leonardo Ricardo

.”….I daresay the feeling is quite mutual” Christoferos Christoferos, you’re no longer able to play pretend (appalled or not)..God demands that we face REALITY occassionally and this is one of those historic Episcopal Church TRUTH telling times. No more self-deceiving, no exceptions! WE, meaning LGBT Christian people, have always been sitting/praying, loving and worshipping God right next to YOU in the pews. WE have been preaching Gods message from the pulpit or sitting on the Bishops “special” chair and/or “confirming” YOU too (always)…suddenly YOU are hurt spiritually because you’ve been “called” to face REALITY and Love your neighbor (the one… Read more »

Jerry Hannon
Guest
Jerry Hannon

Bruce Garner wrote: “The Global South is trying to create what amounts to “the Worldwide Puritan Communion” which is not traditionally Anglican at all. Traditional Anglicanism makes room for various opinions and ideas and creates a somewhat “muddy” middle road that some people can’t handle. They want everything laid out for them in black and white, yes and no answers. Life isn’t like that…why should the church behave like it is.” This is a wonderful summation of the essential problem. I had become accustomed to friends, or former friends in some cases, abandoning their own critical analysis and joining various… Read more »

NP
Guest
NP

Leonardo – how many times? People have LISTENED and not been convinced by arguments made and their bases.

As the ABC has said, it is a false idea that the gospel is “Inclusive” at its heart……just reading all the words of JC will show that very clearly.

There is no point shouting, “Listen” unless you have something new and convincing to say….from the Bible (not psychology, human rights, sociology etc etc) – remember this is a church not a human rights group so there has to be appropriate substance to innovation.

mynsterpreost (=David Rowett)
Guest
mynsterpreost (=David Rowett)

There is no point shouting, “Listen” unless you have something new and convincing to say….from the Bible (not psychology, human rights, sociology etc etc)

Serious (ie non-polemical) question. Does this mean that the disciplines of psychology, sociology, anthropology etc have nothing to offer Christian study of the Scriptures?

Merseymike
Guest
Merseymike

No, NP. You need to consider the issue with reference to a wide range of tools and so on to enable insight.

Fundamentalism – ‘the Bible alone’ – is simply not adequate.

Cheryl Clough
Guest

Funny. I thought a church that worships Jesus and the Father would understand that makes it intrinsically a human rights group. Throughout biblical history, God intervenes to save those that no one else would save. God was the first humanist.

cryptogram
Guest
cryptogram

Right. First, lest’s establish where I’m coming from. I am NOT LGBT. I regard curiosity about other people’s sexual activities as at best distasteful, and my own as of no concern to anyone but me and my wife. Second, I think that some contributors to this thread need to listen to what the NT (and specifically Jesus) has to say about the identity of a neighbour. The crucial point in that story he told about a priest, a levite and a Samaritan was that the Samaritan was the vilest person imaginable. Rabbinic texts describe Samaritans as “menstruants from the womb”… Read more »

Ford Elms
Guest
Ford Elms

“this is a church not a human rights group”

NP,
While I agree that our relationship with God is based on grace, not rights, this statement seems bizarre. Human rights are part of the Gospel, part of the Kingdom we are all working for. Your statement sounds an awful like ++Akinola’s appalling statement that human suffering doesn’t matter.

laurence
Guest
laurence

Listening with the heart is, I believe what is called for from Leonardo’s heartfelt plea.

choirboyfromhell
Guest
choirboyfromhell

NP: It will indeed be telling that those who can’t stand to “listen” will be humbled when science proves them wrong in their interpretation of the Gospels. But I suspect that their answer will be something on the lines of “intelligent design”. How many more Matthew Shepherds do we need as an “appropriate substance” to your reluctant endorsement of innovation? And if ++Akinola is so concerned about the “Satanic presence” in TEC, what is he trying to do about the genocide of Christians in Sudan & Chad on his own continent? You’d use a tiny bit of Scripture to tear… Read more »

Leonardo Ricardo
Guest
Leonardo Ricardo

“…remember this is a church not a human rights group so there has to be appropriate substance to innovation.” NP Dear NP, You don’t know, or refuse to see, the difference in Gods “word” and “will” being revealed through living “substance” and “innovation” change throught the welcoming of ALL Christian/other believers in a world brimming with urgent examples of Gods very own desire for a HEALTHIER reality by living in TRUTH! No more pretending things are different than they REALLY are. I believe Gods wish and COMMANDMENT is for us ALL to aspire/actively work to live in a peaceful and… Read more »

dave williams
Guest

Interesting that you should mention the problems in Africa. Significantly it is Christians who often are the victims in this case -and it is a big concern for African Anglicans. Only last week an African Anglican leader was telling us how he neary was killed in Sudan recently.

I also remember hearing from I think it was a Nigerian Bishop at Christ Church Fulwood back about 4 years ago about how his own house had been burnt down and his church attacked.

ruidh
Guest
ruidh

“remember this is a church not a human rights group …”

*boggle* The Church is the *original* human rights group.

NP
Guest
NP

Thanks for responses but I am afraid some of them prove the case – the church has got a group in it which is less concerned about the church’s roots and bases than its own rights agenda. As I have said before, please write out all of JCs words and you will see that he is no universalist or moral relativist. JC was specifically NOT about creating a new just world – he refused to do that and was very clear about his mission…….but too many TEC leaders seem to think they are following him when they preach a gospel… Read more »

Cheryl Clough
Guest

Choir boy, your comment that some people are concerned about the “Satanic presence” in TEC kept niggling at me. It puts us in with good company. After all, Jesus had to deal with similar allegations e.g. Luke 11:14-26; Matthew 10:25; Matthew 12:24-37; Mark 3:22-20 Some of NP’s postings are just bizarre. Jesus was not about creating justice on earth???? If what NP is saying is true, that meant Jesus never intended to fulfill Isaiah 65:17-19 or 66:22-23! Is that what Jesus was trying to warn us in John 14:30, that we would be vulnerable and could be swayed by the… Read more »

NP
Guest
NP

Cheryl – please look at what he said – he did not come to bring peace but division as HE SAID, he did not solve all hunger and health problems….did he?
He explicity said what his mission was….and it was not the “millenium goals”

It’s a great, rewarding exercise – please write out all JCs statements and you will see his mission, love, priorities shining through

Ford Elms
Guest
Ford Elms

“JC was specifically NOT about creating a new just world”

NP, what?!?!?!?! So the Kingdom of God is what, then? Or is redemption all about getting into Heaven when you die? Seriously, what do you make of all the Bible’s talk about justice and the Kingdom?