Thinking Anglicans

Virginia: new developments (updated)

Updated again Saturday morning
The Diocese of Virginia has just issued this: Diocesan Leadership Declares Church Property ‘Abandoned’
and
A Letter to The Diocese of Virginia from the Rt. Rev. Peter James Lee, Bishop

Please read both documents in full.

Friday morning
Episcopal News Service Virginia leadership declares church property ‘abandoned’
Living Church Diocese Declares Departing Virginia Church Properties Abandoned
Richmond Times-Dispatch Diocese moves to recover breakaway churches’ land
Associated Press via Washington Post Episcopalians Readying Legal Challenge
Washington Times Church dispute headed to court

Friday evening
Episcopal News Service Presiding Bishop affirms Church’s ‘fiduciary and moral duty’ to preserve property

From the CANA website:

On January 12, Bishop Martyn Minns of CANA received the following letter from the leader of the Episcopal Diocese of Virginia (the Rt. Rev. Peter James Lee). Bishop Minns’s response is also pasted below. CANA regrets that given the Episcopal Church’s more recent public polemical statements, that we are forced to make these two private letters part of the public record. In the past, the headquarters of the Episcopal Diocese of Virginia has endorsed the principles of civility and grace (e.g., “The Grace and Power of Civility” by David Abshire). But their recent unilateral actions of (1) denying their own Protocol’s access to amicable separation, of (2) breaking off the negotiation process, of (3) driving a wedge into CANA congregations, of (4) denying senior priests access to COBRA health care extensions — all of these seem to prove that the Episcopal Church is more interested in posturing than people. CANA continues to pray for a peaceful resolution and that the Episcopal Church leaders will not initiate litigation.

» January 10, 2007 – Letter from the Rt. Rev. Peter James Lee to the Rt. Rev. Martyn Minns (PDF)

» January 16, 2007 – Letter from the Rt. Rev. Martyn Minns to the Rt. Rev. Peter James Lee (PDF)

and also Anglican District of Virginia leaders urge Episcopal Bishop and Diocese to return to negotiating table.

FAIRFAX and FALLS CHURCH, Va, Jan. 19 – Two leaders of the Anglican District of Virginia today urged the Episcopal Diocese of Virginia and its bishop, the Rt. Rev. Peter James Lee, to cease both his divisive rhetoric and his march toward the courthouse and instead return to the negotiating table.

“It is still not too late for Bishop Lee and the leaders of the Episcopal Diocese of Virginia to stand down from making any more threats against faithful Christians who followed the Diocese of Virginia’s protocol for departing congregations, and instead to return to the negotiating table,” said Tom Wilson, Senior Warden of The Falls Church and Chairman of the Anglican District. “I still have hope, even now, that we can sit down and reason together.”

The Anglican District of Virginia is a growing association of Anglican Churches in Virginia, consisting of 16 worshipping congregations and two emerging church plants. On a typical Sunday, almost 6000 people attend these churches, making Anglican District larger than almost half of the Episcopal dioceses in the United States…

This article from the Washington Post yesterday contains detail about the Heathsville, Virginia church mentioned in the correspondence above: Praying for Answers.

Saturday morning
Living Church Departing Virginia Churches Urge Diocese to Resume Negotiations
Washington Post Congregations Give Warning On Property
Washington Times Breakaway churches urge bishop back to talks

The Rev. Dr. John Yates Writes to The Falls Church via Stand Firm

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The Anglican Scotist
Guest

I believe it is truly said of Bishop Lee that he exhausted every other reasonable, permissible avenue open to him, and that he at length was driven to this sad day. We should remember that his declaration is the outcome of decades of growing division in the Episcopal Church, dating at least from the ’60s, division that on numerous other occasions had already resulted in open schism with the Episcopal Church. I think it is worth pondering the nature of such divisions, and how we can better keep them within the reasonable bounds of Christian community in the future, bounds… Read more »

Dave
Guest
Dave

Bishop Lee starts his letter: “Today, the leadership of the Diocese of Virginia, supported by the prayers of faithful Episcopalians in this Diocese and around the world, took action to preserve the sacred mission entrusted to us by previous generations for the future of the Church here in Virginia and across the Episcopal Church.” I notice the use of the term “faithful Episcopalians…. around the world”. This seems to reflect the comments that Simon recently reported from TEC bloggers… Many faithful Episcopalians seem to be deciding that the price for remaining part of the Anglican Communion is too high. I… Read more »

Leonardo Ricardo
Guest
Leonardo Ricardo

Bravo!

Saying NO to arrogant/greedy rationalizing and boundary crossing, by many non-Anglican and Nigerian puritan POACHERS who respect NOTHING of our religious heritage is a very BIG DEAL!

Our moral character as it is revealed through OUR ongoing inclusion of ALL Christians at ALL levels of Episcopal/Anglican Church life is now a unavoidable FACT!

The “listening/orientation” process will finally begin at court…listening, will be required even for the folks who have fear/hate so deeply embedded in their “loathing process” that they formerly could only hear the sound of their own self-righteous bigoted voices.

John-Julian, OJN
Guest
John-Julian, OJN

Finally!

A man of almost divine patience and awesome courage!

Bless him, bless him!

JPM
Guest
JPM

“Come, Watson, come! The game is afoot!”

H. E. Baber
Guest

Sorry but this is all looking a lot like W’s program of “staying the course” and, failing that, escalating. Yes the canons entitle the diocese to get that church property, but so what? Is it really cost-effective to fight this out to keep the buildings and property? Maybe from the point of view of the institution and the hierarchy, but not from the perspective of ordinary church members. There’s no shortage of church buildings or space in church buildings. Most Episcopalians drive to church and lots drive past 2 or 3 Episcopal churches to go to the one that suits… Read more »

Dennis
Guest
Dennis

I think that it has become clear that the Episcopal Church and the leaders of our church have reached a point where we can say, “No more.” Read the letter from the Bishop of Bethleham (Pennsylvania), read the letter from the President of the House of Deputies, read Bp Lee’s letter. The Episcopal Church is a great church with a great tradition. We have a set polity. We have come to decisions made in accordance with our church’s organizational policies. We ordain women and we have decided in General convention that gender is not and cannot be used to bar… Read more »

Dennis
Guest
Dennis

All parishes are held in trust by the national church for each and every Episcopalian in this country. Those who worship in a parish have no more claim to the property than does each and every Episcopalian, individually and colectively, in this church through our General Convention. If they can take this property and these buildings out of the church because they were geographically placed to worship in them then they are doing real harm to the interests of every other Episcopalian and every future Episcopalian who would lose access to and benefit from these properties – properties that we… Read more »

NP
Guest
NP

Glad so many on TA like the “enough is enough” approach…………please don’t complain when the AC says the same to TEC

Göran Koch-Swahne
Guest

H. E. Baber wrote: “The Episcopal Church has plenty of land and buildings, including its headquarters on prime Manhattan real estate, and might do better with less.”

It might, but that doesn’t make theft any more acceptable. Especially when accompanied by grotesque lies, projections and slander…

Logic!

Cheryl Clough
Guest

I think the Bishop and his team’s decision is courageous and they are making the best choices possible in the circumstances beyond their control. H.E. Baber has no idea what it is like to be left without a parish. No, it is not acceptable to take the buildings with break aways. If that was the case, I would have participated in the formation of a liberal element within the Sydney diocese. Instead I chose the wastelands. Let them keep their ivory towers and buildings. It is not appropriate to tear apart the church by “rogue elements”. If someone wishes to… Read more »

Cynthia Gilliatt
Guest
Cynthia Gilliatt

“I think what he means is get control of buildings and maybe take away clergy pension rights.” The property is held in trust – see citations in the communication. As for the pensions. Bishop Lee is taking nothing away. When you leave the employ of any entity, you forego your salary and benefits. Those who have left will take with them the pension benefits which accrued up to the time they resigned. The Church Pension Fund is quite a generous one. They simply cannot continue to accrue benefits after leaving. Presumably those joining CANA will have the health and pension… Read more »

ruidh
Guest
ruidh

“Yes the canons entitle the diocese to get that church property, but so what? Is it really cost-effective to fight this out to keep the buildings and property? Maybe from the point of view of the institution and the hierarchy, but not from the perspective of ordinary church members. There’s no shortage of church buildings or space in church buildings. Most Episcopalians drive to church and lots drive past 2 or 3 Episcopal churches to go to the one that suits them–not a big deal.” These are historic Churches and churches which are historically Episcopalian. I don’t think anyone in… Read more »

Charles
Guest
Charles

“All people will one day be accepted at the table in every Anglican church.” in the post by Dennis is presumably a typo. Surely the Liberal position is “All people (except fundamentalists) will one day be accepted at the table in every Anglican church.”

Ford Elms
Guest
Ford Elms

So, let’s see: Consevos claim to be embattled by “liberal” bishops. Bishop Lee presents a case that, if true, would put the lie to that argument, at least in his diocese. Given the behaviour of the right in the last few years, I find it difficult to remain impartial in my assessment of this, but I still strive to. Consevos see church buildings as owned by them as opposed to being held in trust by the Church, acting on behalf of the God to Whom they were given. If by their actions they force the Church to argue, regrettably in… Read more »

drdanfee
Guest
drdanfee

Well the ConsEvs story from Falls Church and Truro is supposed to be that the split/property issues were all being worked out at prior meetings, then Bishop Lee pulled a fast one and suddenly became a pagan ogre, hungry for buildings and money.

If Truro and Falls Church are so wealthy in spirit and riches, why don’t they just buy the property from the Diocese/National church at a fair market price – easy to arrive at via common real estate practices these days – and leave, like the Kansas City parish did?

ruidh
Guest
ruidh

“I notice the use of the term “faithful Episcopalians…. around the world”. This seems to reflect the comments that Simon recently reported from TEC bloggers… Many faithful Episcopalians seem to be deciding that the price for remaining part of the Anglican Communion is too high.”

Dave, don;t overestimate the influence of a few bloggers. The sentiment in TEC as a whole is still to try to remain a full member of the Communion.

Leonardo Ricardo
Guest
Leonardo Ricardo

“Many faithful Episcopalians seem to be deciding that the price for remaining part of the Anglican Communion is too high.” Dave My Dear Brother Dave, Do you mean our ongoing decision and vast majority resolution that LGBT Christians and Heterosexual Women may be ordained to Holy Orders at TEC and the “loving thy neighbor as thyself” enlightenment process is the PRICE that is too high to pay? Don’t be silly. Loving and embracing everyone, encouraging justice for the marginalized/shunned (especially in outposts of intollerance, ignorance, fear/hate and prejudice such as Nigeria/Uganda and Ft. Worth, Texas) is a small price to… Read more »

H. E. Baber
Guest

I’m arguing on pure consequentialist grounds, bracketing any question of rights–legal or otherwise. And I’m not talking about church polity, whether TEC by it’s fundamental principles has to reject congregationalism. This is a consequentialist argument. I didn’t claim that Christianity was a consumer product but that church buildings and their furnishings were. People certainly have aesthetic interests and sentimental attachments to church furnishings but that, as liberals have so often reminded us, isn’t religion. As we’ve been told ad nauseum: “the Church isn’t buildings–it’s people.” Those people can do church wherever they please, wherever 2 or three are gathered together,… Read more »

Cynthia
Guest
Cynthia

“Surely the Liberal position is “All people (except fundamentalists) will one day be accepted at the table in every Anglican church.” So far the only people who have refused table fellowship have been the conservatives – those who won’t meet with, much less share Eucharist with, the HOB, the previous Presiding Bishop, those who have announced that they ‘cannot recognize’ the current PB. And in many parishes like mine, a very mixed congregation of both quite liberal and quite conservative people manages to worship together. Are there tensions? Yes. Have a few people left? Yes – but they did that… Read more »

mynsterpreost (=David Rowett)
Guest
mynsterpreost (=David Rowett)

I’m not sure Bishop Peter had any real option. He exercises authority as a bishop of TEC, not as a private individual, and therefore has to defend the legitimate interests of the diocese. Not to do so would quite possibly leave him wide open to legal action for failing to act as a responsible trustee of diocesan assets. Going on from that, if ‘entryism’ (which is alleged in the case of The Falls and Truro) were to become a sure-fire way of getting hands on Church property at low cost, the mayhem which could result is better imagined than described.… Read more »

MReap
Guest
MReap

“There’s no shortage of church buildings or space in church buildings. Most Episcopalians drive to church and lots drive past 2 or 3 Episcopal churches to go to the one that suits them–not a big deal.”

This could possibly be so “back East” but here in the hinterlands the nearest next Episcopal church is 40 miles away. Not a pleasant drive in mid-winter.

Dallas Bob
Guest
Dallas Bob

Bishop Lee deserves all the praise we can give him. He has patiently endured abuse from those who wish harm to our Church. Now he is acting in a very measured, thoughtful manner to protect our Church. What a magnificent Chrisitian leader he is. I wish my Bishop were of that caliber.

All truly are welcome in the Episcopal Church, conservatives, liberals, and moderates. If they choose to leave, they just can’t take the Episcopal Church’s property with them.

JCF
Guest
JCF

“Surely the Liberal position is “All people (except fundamentalists) will one day be accepted at the table in every Anglican church.” No, Charles, that’s your PROJECTION. “Fundamentalists” (your term) are not only still completely WELCOME at Episcopal altars, they can even ***preside at them*** (as priest or bishop) AS LONG AS they *don’t discriminate against any other Episcopalian* and they *don’t try to take their parish/diocese out of TEC*. ***** “Enough to the schismatics and the people who libel our church and call us godforsaken pagans” Exactly, Dennis. Look, I respect those Anglicans who want to (by way of an… Read more »

Cheryl Clough
Guest

Charles postulated “All people (except fundamentalists) will one day be accepted at the table in every Anglican church.” All people, including fundamentalists have always been welcome in broad tent Anglicanism. The current issue is that fundamentalists have decided to exclude certain elements, which is completely contrary to the tradition of Anglicanism. I’ve also spent some more time thinking about the taking of property when moving on. I woke this morning thinking about Moses, Jacob and Rachel. Jacob is interesting in that, with his mother’s blessing, he fled to save his life, leaving with only what he could carry with him.… Read more »

Ford Elms
Guest
Ford Elms

“All people (except fundamentalists) will one day be accepted at the table in every Anglican church.”

Oh no, Charles, difficult though it may be, even fundamentalists are welcome at the table. My sinful nature would see it otherwise, but that’s not God’s way. The problem is, they no sooner sit down then they start claiming the rest of us should leave since they are the only ones who know how to eat. And besides, we’re wrong to think it’s really food, since it is only a memorial of food!

Kay Wisniewski
Guest
Kay Wisniewski

Is it just my Anglo-American sense of whimsy, or does not the “Rev Martin Mims” have the sound of a name out of Wodehouse? Wouldn’t he be Bertie’s 5th cousin 8 times removed? Which would make some of the African Bishops the aunties in the story. Sigh. I would love us to be able to remain in the Anglican Communion, but if it is not to be … At least TEC knows that it has bent over backwards to try and comply to opinions that have no proper authority over it — and all for the bonds of a very… Read more »

Josh Thomas
Guest

What I take from the latest Lee/Minns exchange is that the fundamentalist schismatics are starting to run scared. It’s one thing to fight over territory, but how DARE the Bishop mess with their pensions and health care! Hey, when you quit, you quit. Bishop Lee accepts their resignations, sees their hostility, hears their threats, so now he’s sending guards to escort them from the building. They can always worship in the White House with the remaining neocon warmongers. This isn’t about theology, gender or sexuality, any more than Iraq is about democracy. This is about hegemony. Armchair generals send armies… Read more »

Cynthia Gilliatt
Guest
Cynthia Gilliatt

the “Rev Martin Mims”

Well, his name is Martyn Minns. He is by birth English, and a naturalized American citizen. Having experienced his presence over the last many years in the Diocese of Virginia, I would say he is as far from a Wodehouse character as I can readily imagine.

Martin Reynolds
Guest

The interesting fact here is that the diocese has only become involved in the legal process as interveners to an action undertaken by CANA affiliates attempting to seize possession of buildings and assets belonging to TEC.

Charity law here in the UK would compel a Trust to act to prevent such a seizure by any of its (former) supporters, or find them selves liable for the loss.

kieran crichton
Guest
kieran crichton

I love the way the term “Faithful / Loyal Anglican / Episcopalian” has finally shifted, courtesy of Bp Lee. Semantics (and semiotics, to a point) have been an important part of the game here so far – just like other conflicts America has gotten wound up in of late. It now seems that those who are faithful or loyal now SUPPORT TEC – and the ones who previously claimed the “faithful/loyal” badge as a critical device are now using the term in the new way. Is this spin, or is it really SPIN? Has anyone else spotted the irony, or… Read more »

Cheryl Clough
Guest

H.E. Baber. Thanks for clarifying your thinking. I empathise with your concern about being distracted about whether or not to fight for the buildings. In Sydney the conservatives have control over the diocese, any liberal development will have to form as an alternative outside of the existing structure. Similarly, in liberal dioceses the converse is true. The extreme dioceses are the tragedy as the communion in these dioceses is diminished by the broad tent Anglicanism being shrunk. In both cases it is the fundamentalists war mongering and poverty complacent theologians who shrink the communion. Where they are in domination, by… Read more »

Guy Butler
Guest
Guy Butler

Out of curiosity, I decided to look at the canons of the Church of Nigeria (since CANA falls under these), and found the following interesting bits. In regards to +Minns request for support, Canon XVI has the following: “3. ADMISSION OF FOREIGN CLERGY MAN No person ordained by a foreign Bishop, or by a Bishop not in communion with this Church shall be permitted to officiate as a Minister of this church until he shall have complied with the Canon or Canons in that case provided and also shall have subscribed the aforesaid declaration.” The declarations make it clear that… Read more »

Raspberry Rabbit
Guest

I thought Bishop Lee’s letter was sad but necessary. There has, obviously, been a long history of accomodation. A lot of muck has been thrown at TEC and I think that its leaders and bishops have behaved with admirable restraint. A lot of bile and opprobrium has been passed off as ‘faithfulness to an historic Gospel’ by really quite angry and difficult individuals. Duly elected Bishops have been subjected to scorn. One just needs to look at the comments on CaNN or Anglican Mainstream or even Titus 1:9 to get the gist of what’s lurking there in the background and… Read more »

counterlight
Guest
counterlight

As for “fundamentalists” and consevs being shut out of the church, the only people that I can recall publicly declaring that they could not share an altar with another group of people were the bishops who shunned communion with +Griswold and other Episcopal Church leaders at Dromantine. Also, there are the African Primates starting with the Primate of Tanzania saying that they can’t possibly sit at table with the Primate of the Episcopal Church; afraid of the girl cooties I presume (yes, it really is that silly). Bishop Lee is doing his duty as a bishop and a custodian of… Read more »

Lapinbizarre
Guest
Lapinbizarre

The po-faced statement of the “Anglican District of Virginia leaders” is a wonderful, hilarious manifestation of the inability of these folk to identify the beam in their own eye. Earlier in the month, David Rowett commented on this page that “I once knew someone who had perfected the art of flouncing out all offended-like when they wanted to go anyway….” This press-release is a perfect exemplar of that mind-set. On a different tack I am interested by the Virginia Secessionist statement that the Anglican tradition “includes welcoming all baptized Christians to the Lord’s Table or Eucharist” and would like to… Read more »

mynsterpreost (=David Rowett)
Guest
mynsterpreost (=David Rowett)

Well, Kieran, I suspect someone finally got hacked off with being caricatured as faithless and disloyal and sought to remind his diocese that – just perhaps – TEC is a legitimate expression of Anglicanism without selling out to a mixture of Calvinism and political opportunism.

revLois Keen
Guest
revLois Keen

Regarding CANA’s claim that they have been denied COBRA continuance of health insurance, please cut and paste in the following for information from the Virginia consumer’s guide on health insurance: http://www.healthinsuranceinfo.net/va.pdf See pages 14 and 15 The access to self-paid continuance of health care benefits falls on the insured, not the employer. The employer is merely required to notify the health plan within 30 days of the voluntary or involuntary termination of employment that such termination has occured. The U.S. Dept of Labor answers COBRA questions. So, I now need, for clarity, a varifiable disclosure of how Bp. Lee “denied… Read more »

H. E. Baber
Guest

One puzzle–and this is a puzzle, not a rhetorical question–is why TEC amongst all mainline denominations in the US has gotten into this mess. All mainline Protestant churches are dealing with the same sexuality issues. Other denominations that are demographically similar to TEC, and also have pretty much the same mix of liberals and conservatives, have had some localized minor skirmishes at most, but nothing like this level of rancor or overwhelming preoccupation. It looks different from the UK where Anglicans are nominally a much larger percentage of the population. But in the US, TEC represents only about 1% of… Read more »

mynsterpreost (=David Rowett)
Guest
mynsterpreost (=David Rowett)

Harriet wondered why it was TEC which had found itself in this particular pickle, whereas other non-fundamentalist US churches have not.

I wonder whether folk like the Evangelical Lutherans and the rest don’t have a heavy footprint in the Global South? If their population and power base is still in Global North, then there are fewer potential allies ‘out there’ for extreme conservatives.

You could argue the whirlwind of the British Empire is now being reaped!!

Now back to writing tomorrow Family Worship liturgy…..

DGus
Guest
DGus

Rev. Lois Keen: I know that TEC’s pension plan is NOT subject to ERISA (because church plans are exempt from ERISA regulation), and I confidently assume that the Diocesan medical plan is likewise not subject to the COBRA statute–that is, if it wants to be snarky, the Diocese can deny a temporary “continuation of benefits” to a departing priest who needs health coverage for a couple months until he can get his affairs in order. I say “snarky,” because, as you point out, the departing priest would bear the entire cost of the insurance. It’s no skin off the diocesan… Read more »

drdanfee
Guest
drdanfee

Already much of the historically given legacy negatives in sexuality – to which so many ancients pledged good allegiance, very sincerely, via tradition and via scripture or via inferences from tradition and scripture – have almost completely fallen into dis-use. Oral sex causes hurricanes or stillborn cattle, for just one clear example? We could indeed list many other legacy items that nobody mentions much these days. Why? Because it is flat earth stuff, pure and simple. The New Testament itself has powerfully helped bring about this dramatic revision at large in western culture, simply by letting everybody who can read,… Read more »

C.B.
Guest
C.B.

Lois – The very same claim caught my eye. COBRA is a federal entitlement program -Bishop Lee can’t deny it to anyone who qualifies. And either you qualify or you don’t. I couldn’t tell if there was an emphasis on “extentions” somehow. But nevertheless it sounds like a trumped up charge meant to confuse rather than clarify what is REALLY being asked for by the exclergy.

JCF
Guest
JCF

“One puzzle–and this is a puzzle, not a rhetorical question–is why TEC amongst all mainline denominations in the US has gotten into this mess.”

Since you asked, H.E.: only in TEC, “amongst all mainline denominations in the US”, have a majority of the *heterosexuals* taken seriously to heart Our Lord’s “what you do for the least of these, you do for me.”

Mess? Or martyrdom? (i.e., WITNESS)

God bless the Episcopal Church! 😀

JPM
Guest
JPM

>>>What is it that made TEC, so it seems to me, the vortex of this maelstrom?

Careful coordination and lots and lots of money:

http://edow.org/follow/index.html

The link is to a report by the Diocese of Washington detailing who is funding the “reasserters.” Their sugardaddies are, in most cases, the very same people who funded the Get Clinton Industry of the late 90s, and they have designs on all the mainstream churches, not just ours.

drdanfee
Guest
drdanfee

A slight, slight correction to Bishop Minns and company, maybe. The Anglican District of Virginia is most technically titled, for now, as the Nigerian Anglican District of Virginia. CANA is real so far as it goes, inside Nigeria and inside the Nigerian churches of Virginia. Outside, who knows? The rest of us Anglicans are still figuring out this fast move, made so publicly. (Yeah I know it took one or two decades of ConsEvs newbies moving into the Virginia parishes to tilt them, but if womens’ ordination and queer bishops happened way too fast, this one was a quickie, too.)… Read more »

Prior Aelred
Guest

Dr. Baber — Off the top of my head, I would suggest that a variety of factors is involved, but I think that one of the major things that makes such a big difference between TEC & other mainline denominations (which are going through much the same thing, but don’t get as much attention since their clergy don’t dress so colorfully) is the actions of the primates of the WWAC. It seems to me that there is really no equivalent for the other mainline denominations. As to why TEC rather than the C of E (which has been blessing same… Read more »

laurence
Guest
laurence

as far as I can see, you don’t have this level of agony. What is it that made TEC, so it seems to me, the vortex of this maelstrom? We in the Uk have a highlt-developed, nuanced and shamelss capacity for hypocricy and two-facedness; and the House of Bishops of the C of E, being political appointees, have this honed to a fine art. The C of E regularly says one thing to gay individuals, priests, clerical and lay couples,in private; and another in public to conservatives and evangelicals. Though in the HoB report they try to have their cake… Read more »

drdanfee
Guest
drdanfee

Howdy HEB, part of the puzzle pieces must involve how USA rightwing funders and organizers intentionally chose to especially target TEC. The USA rightwing helped fund IRD and other pressure points, across several years. Also. One cannot avoid noticing the personality and temperaments of prominent rightwing TEC leaders, so should we especially look at power needs since so much of the inside TEC realignment leaders are so much taken with heterosexual domination and traditional heterosexuals-only privileges? When, say, Canon David Anderson has sex with his wife, the angels sing and rejoice because nothing but highly godly stuff can possibly be… Read more »

drdanfee
Guest
drdanfee

Howdy again HEB. Presbyterians have been more quietly realigned in many quarters, dramatically to the right in a Chalcedon Institute or Famly Forum sort of direction. Maybe the overall institutional picture doesn’t matter quite so much, maybe, because the USA Presbyterians are historically SES middle-management folks, not top level CEOs, directors, or owners. Speculation about the targeting of TEC might include: (1) the USA right needed a further test case church for new ways of target practice campaigning, (2)TEC has historically had social influence greater than its numbers as such, so what a plum target church, and (3)TEC has money… Read more »