Thinking Anglicans

primates meeting: Monday

Updated again Monday evening

Two British newspaper correspondents have reports this morning:

Daily Telegraph Jonathan Petre is already in Dar es Salaam, and reports Archbishop’s peace talks threatened.

…To the consternation of officials, the conservative primates have set up their own headquarters in the neighbouring Beachcomber hotel, at which they will determine their collective strategy, and they are threatening to snub Presiding Bishop Katharine Jefferts Schori, the liberal leader of the Episcopal Church, the American branch of Anglicanism…

…Anglican officials are hoping that divisions between hardliners and moderates will surface within this group over the next two days, allowing Dr Williams to appeal to the middle ground. “Much will depend on whose voices dominate the Global South caucus,” said one.

But a leading conservative, the Primate of Central Africa, Archbishop Bernard Malango, said many of his colleagues would find it “very difficult” to work with Presiding Bishop Schori. He added that the presence of the Archbishop of York, Dr John Sentamu, for the first time was also problematic because it had been decided without full consultation. In a warning to Dr Williams, he said: “If people have come in a spirit of give and take, that will happen. But if people have made up their minds to bring certain people here, then it will be difficult.

“I don’t want to see the Church damaged but if some groupings, especially those who are not faithful to the scriptures, decide to do their own thing, then that puts me in a difficult situation…”

Guardian Stephen Bates Archbishop battles to ward off final Anglican split on homosexuality.

…Conservative archbishops, mainly from the developing world, have gathered in Dar es Salaam for a separate two-day conference in advance of a formal meeting on Wednesday to plot tactics and agree a strategy before Rowan Williams arrives tomorrow…

…Archbishops, particularly those from Africa, want the American Church to be thrown out of the Anglican Communion because the church has been supportive of gay relationships, which they see as being in defiance of biblical injunctions.

They are being supported and lobbied at the meeting by English and American conservative, mainly evangelical, factions who also want to overthrow the US church’s liberal leadership and claim it for themselves.

In a further uncompromising sign, the Most Rev Peter Akinola, the primate of Nigeria and leader of the so-called “global south” archbishops opposed to any accommodation with the church’s homosexual members, has told Dr Williams that he objects to the presence of John Sentamu, the Archbishop of York, at the meeting…

The local paper in Dar es Salaam, the Daily News reports Gays debate comes to haunt Anglican Church Summit.

A SHOWDOWN on the issue of gay church leaders is shaping up ahead of the Anglican Church Summit starting in Dar es Salaam on Wednesday…

…A number of delegates have already arrived in Dar es Salaam for the Summit expected to come up with a new vision on church solidarity as well addressing divisive tendencies. Several delegates attended Sunday morning service at the St Alban’s Cathedral in the city centre…

And the Global South Anglican has published The Long Road to Full Inheritance: Anglican Communion, Anno Domini 2007 by Michael Poon. Also there is Do you love me? – A Question for our Primates too by Canon AkinTunde Popoola.

Lunchtime update

Stephen Bates also has a strongly-worded critique of several English bishops at Comment is Free in Blathering bishops. And a leading conservative agrees with him:

…Furthermore Scott-Joynt & Co always seem to intervene just when a big church meeting is in the offing. Martyn Minns, one of the breakaway conservatives in the US Church, told me yesterday: “They always seem to have these thoughts and feel the need to share them just at the worst possible time.”

And he concludes with this:

…The outpourings of the Bishop of Winchester and his colleagues are counter-productive, both from the perspective of changing anyone’s minds and for the reputation of the Church of England, and they also serve to undermine the Archbishop of Canterbury as he strives to keep the worldwide communion together this week in Dar es Salaam.

Furthermore they are deeply divisive within the CofE’s bench of bishops, where Scott-Joynt and Nazir-Ali are both regarded as insufferable by many of their colleagues. What a happy ship it is.

The Toronto Star has Canada could play a key role as divided Anglican bishops meet.

Afternoon update

And in case you were wondering where Dar es Salaam is, ACNS has provided a map along with other information.

Jonathan Petre has also blogged about it: Ring of steel around the archbishops.

…The burgeoning bunker mentality can, perhaps, be explained by the palpable anxiety of the organizers that the meeting could be derailed before it has even started by the powerful conservative group of Global South primates, who are determined to seize control of events.

They have set up their own headquarters a hundred yards up the road in the Beachcomber hotel, where they are holding strategy meetings before moving en masse to the White Sands for the official five-day meeting beginning on Thursday, where a bloody showdown is looming.

When I mentioned to one of the conservative primates that there was consternation among Anglican Communion staff about what is effectively an alternative headquarters, he replied: “This isn’t the alternative headquarters. It is THE headquarters.” With that sort of attitude to contend with, Dr Williams will have his work cut out.

White Sands Hotel. And the video is here.
Beachcomber Hotel.

Evening update

Ruth Gledhill also has a review of the day with some additional links, and she reminisces about Lambeth 1998 in Tension builds in Dar es Salaam.

David Anderson of the AAC has also reported from Tanzania: News from Tanzania: Primates Already Arriving, Meeting in Dar Es Salaam

The Anglican primates have been arriving in groups, some earlier than others, to attend several meetings scheduled prior to the general Primates’ Meeting. It is anticipated that several primates will not arrive, although that is unclear until the meetings actually start. We have been told that the primate of Wales will not attend due to a long planned sabbatical, and the primate of North India will also be absent.

The Archbishop of Canterbury is arriving somewhat late and will miss some or all of the joint meeting of the primates and Standing Committee of the Anglican Consultative Council (ACC). With Dr. Williams arriving late, Wales not attending, and a few others understood not to be coming; it may be that the joint meeting consists mainly of the Standing Committee of the ACC and Primate Bernard Malango (Province of Central Africa).

It has been suggested by some that the reason for the poor showing has to do with a lack of timely planning on the part of the organizers. The minutes of the last meeting are said to have not been given to the members in attendance until yesterday, and there is a difference of memory as to what the minutes should actually reflect.

The usual contingent from the news media is present in Dar Es Salaam, including Stephen Bates from London’s Guardian newspaper, the Rev. Canon Chris Sugden for Anglican Mainstream, the Rev. Canon David Anderson for the American Anglican Council’s Encompass publication, and Bishop Martyn Minns and wife Angela Minns for Convocation of Anglicans in North America (CANA) News. Prayer intercessors from the United States led by Rose-Marie Edwards are covering the meetings in prayer, along with other groups off-site. Bishop Bob Duncan (Pittsburgh) is on location, and other familiar faces from both sides of the main issues are expected to arrive momentarily..

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Lionel Deimel
14 years ago

And where have the Americans and their allies set up their strategic headquarters? They haven’t, I suspect, and are simply trusting in God. My experience, however, has been that trusting in God and having a plan generally works better than trusting in God alone. I am reminded of the Flanders and Swan song “The English,” whose words seem to capture the liberal strategy of the past three and a half years: “And all the world over each nation’s the same; They’ve simply no notion of playing the game; They argue with umpires, they cheer when they’ve won, And they practice… Read more »

Norah Bolton
14 years ago

There is a blatant error in the Toronto Star Article. 100 dioceses have not left the Episcopal Church. Less than 1% of parishes have.

Fr Joseph O'Leary
14 years ago

The panicky and hysterical comments of certain bishops are probably not inspired by homophobia, but by the nervousness characteristic of threatened authority. I am amazed at their immature ranting and at their unawareness of how ridiculous they are making the Church of England look. But this implosion of the reactionary wing gives me confidence that the more forward-looking forces will prevail.

matthew hunt
matthew hunt
14 years ago

Canon Tunde Popoola (from his ‘Do you love me?’ thing): “I had once watched as a mature sheep crossed a motorway and screamed as two younger ones following were hit by an oncoming vehicle.”
Was it the mature sheep that screamed, or Tunde Popoola? Or both?
So, if I understand correctly, ++Schori is the mature sheep and liberal (and potentially liberal) Christians are the younger sheep who get squished. Who’s driving the car then? Akinola?

(involuntary mental images of robed bishops chasing each other across perilous Dar es Salaam highways – oh, the carnage!)

Leonardo Ricardo
Leonardo Ricardo
14 years ago

“And where have the Americans and their allies set up their strategic headquarters? They haven’t, I suspect, and are simply trusting in God. My experience, however, has been that trusting in God and having a plan generally works better than trusting in God alone” Lionel Deimel God has made clear to me during my lifetime (over-and-over-again) that God expects me to do the work necessary to find my way to personal integrity and TRUST in her/him while taking positive actions even in “murky” situations…learning how to say “NO” is the biggest lesson I’ve learned when dealing with folks I “wish/hope… Read more »

Steven
Steven
14 years ago

Well, once again the —- is about to hit the fan, creating an ever-widening stink and mess. Once upon a time there was a chance for the two separate religions confined together under the ECUSA umbrella to make an amicable separation, dividing out property, and going their separate ways in as friendly and Christian way as possible. Instead we have an ever-widening mess of lawsuits, bad smells and confusion as the liberal leadership of ECUSA–who decided to “walk apart” many years before–tries to simultaneously squeeze orthodox Anglican believers out of their churches while holding TEC within the Anglican communion. Oh… Read more »

Lapinbizarre
Lapinbizarre
14 years ago

At risk of nit-picking about Jonathan Petre’s description of the current situation as “the biggest Anglican crisis since the Reformation”, wouldn’t the 1646 abolition of episcopacy be up there at the top of the list?

Göran Koch-Swahne
14 years ago

If there is “consternation” among the organizers because the IRD crowd once again have set up their hedquarters a couple of yards down the road, then I am sorry for them.

Cheryl Clough
14 years ago

Sometimes the cards just have to be played. Over reacting and over preparing can actually precipitate a crisis and make a situation worse than what it is. I think Schori et al are doing the right thing in not preparing or prescribing in advance. Allow people to do what they will, but do not add fuel to their fire. If you read the stories of souls who reach “enlightenment”, you often hear just before they have their sartori experience there is a storm of conflicting emotions, desires, fears and hates. Those who succeed are those who are not drawn into… Read more »

Martin Reynolds
Martin Reynolds
14 years ago

Is Ruth in Dar es Salaam? The Times are notoriously mean and often depend on local stringers.

Charlotte
Charlotte
14 years ago

Lionel Deimel, Goran Koch-Swahne, and Leonardo Ricardo, let me join my voice to yours. Why are the liberals and moderates among the Primates so passive? Have they learned nothing from the hijacking of Dromantine by the AAC/Network/IRD operatives, and the attempt to do the same at Nottingham? At Nottingham, cell phones were banned from the final meeting. Once the prelates of the Global South could no longer take instructions from their US handlers, the “discipline” of the Episcopal Church went no further. At Kigali, the swarms of North American “observers” were a scandal to many present. The schisimatic Kigali Communique… Read more »

Göran Koch-Swahne
14 years ago

Yes dear Charlotte, I think of my lay and clergy Swedish friends in Africa (Bukoba and Cape Town) and I think of my African friends here (of several religions), and I wonder what they really think of all this. But then I read Cheryl’s vision of the Storm and say Well yes, maybe it’s past all that. “God willing, weather permitting” is what remains. But it’s obcene. The link to the “White Sands” does not work, but the conference fee (full board) at the “Beachcomber” is $145, times 3 nights, times perhaps 30 pax (incl. the wannabee “extras”). Makes something… Read more »

Tim
Tim
14 years ago

“especially those who are not faithful to the scriptures, decide to do their own thing, then that puts me in a difficult situation…”

Yeah right. Let those who think TEC has gone astray note *who* it is that’s parking their tent elsewhere – in this as in all such snide accusations, it’s the ones with their hiking boots and garters on who accuse the others of “walking apart”.

pete
pete
14 years ago

Am I missing something here? Why should TEC be on the defensive with Akinola, Duncan, and Co.? Shouldn’t it be the other way around? If I were Bishop KJS, I’d come out swinging and express outrage over the lack of collegiality by certain Primates, the “Un-Anglican” actions of Nigeria trying to violate the boundaries of another province, the attempts to foster anarchy within TEC and the Anglican Communion by Akinola and Duncan, etc. What does TEC have to apologize for to anyone? That’s old news. Time to move on. It would be nice if Rowan Williams would show some spine… Read more »

John Henry
John Henry
14 years ago

“Should we continue to be passive while the right-wing steamroller runs over them — and us? I hear African voices calling out for deliverance.”

A very pertinent question, Charlotte.

When will the Moderator and his gang of schismatic thugs be held accountable by TEC’s HoB? It is high time for TEC to declare their dioceses vacant and to appoint bishops who keep their ordination vows rather than disown them on the grounds of whatever falsehoods and lies they concoct to justify their desires for AlPO.

drdanfee
drdanfee
14 years ago

If you wish a sense of how push is meant to come to shove in this pitched key moment of the next steps in conservatively realigning you, just drop over at StandFirm and read how they report from Tanzania, along with any comments posted. There is a strong stomach there for disowning the human decencies built into the humanity of any children in the human family who are not straight, along with anybody who thinks that scholarly investigations can help from multiple points of view with our rightly interpreting scripture, and all the other hot button topics or issues. The… Read more »

Göran Koch-Swahne
14 years ago

David Andersson’s article speaks of that kind of disarray which has to do with organizations dysfunctioning due to double leadershop structures; one formal and one informal.

The formal structure has been side-lined for any reason or none, the informal leading one is done by someone who isn’t up to it.

Ironically, most people in these situation think someone is avoiding work, leaving toiling to the others, reality being that the informal leader is a wannabe, an incompetent.

Hence the particular form of disarray.

mynsterpreost (=David Rowett)
mynsterpreost (=David Rowett)
14 years ago

Those for whom Abuja is no more than a little black dot on a map may find the following of interest:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/6355269.stm

Cheryl Clough
14 years ago

Charlotte The game doesn’t end in Tanzania. The same as Jesus’ game didn’t end with the crucifixion. But the game needs to be played out, the rejection complete, the temple fractured open. But after the “death” of the church, there will still be life. The inclusive theology will not end in Tanzania. There will be a parting of ways as those who have demanded death or exile formally will not be able to stop life being breathed into the new church. In the last few days I have come to understand we have seen God do something as beautiful as… Read more »

Martin Reynolds
Martin Reynolds
14 years ago

I believe the Michael Poon piece represents an interesting and very significant development. Up to now Poon was the single most important GS ally of the Fulcrum “middle way”. His work often repays careful reading. This present paper may offer the ACO and others little comfort. While we have yet to see any work from the Covenant group, I believe his vision of “ardour with order” might well be at odds with the “order” envisaged there. He is clearly not interested in any compromise that might inhibit or curtail his vision of mission – it seems to me that he… Read more »

Leonardo Ricardo
Leonardo Ricardo
14 years ago

“I do not weep for the liberal Americans” Cheryl Clough I agree, it’s almost a celebration/liberation and yes, more will be revealed as hatred fear/loathing, greed and outcasting will be unavoidably “faced” at the foot of the cross. There will be rejoicing after the “excluding” days/daze in Africa and again next week when the “stone” is rolled away from the attempted burial place of The Holy Spirit, “the message” and OUR Christian REALITY will continue rise to include LGBT people and heterosexual women at all levels of OUR Church lives…afterall, that’s what Christians *do* after the human sacrifices have been… Read more »

John Henry
John Henry
14 years ago

Chris Hedges, a Harvard Divinity School-educated Presbyterian, wrote a thoughtful analysis of what is happening to TEC and to Mainline US dominations, in his recent book, entitled American Fascists: The Christian Right and the War on America (2006). Mr. David Virtue on his blog condemns PB Katharine Jefferts Schori as a heretic, simply because she invited John S Spong to address the Nevada clergy in 2003. Guilt by association, the same way the Christian Right suspected a Communist agitator behind every Civil Rights-conscious and/or activist American. The Moderator and those “minding” the Anglican primates of the GS in order to… Read more »

drdanfee
drdanfee
14 years ago

I am very heartened that Changing Attitude and especially CA Nigeria with Davis MacIyalla are present, too, at this meeting. Integrity joins in, too, most helpfully. Just to see them all physically standing at the gates is a summary image of the whole sad controversial business. If Akinola is not the bedrock and nothing but homphobe/heterosexist that he sounds and appears to be from so many legacy negative comments, then now surely is the time in public for him to reveal his other capacities and get news or pictures of it shot round the planet. Ditto, for his abilities to… Read more »

Chris
Chris
14 years ago

John Henry said,
“The Moderator and those “minding” the Anglican primates of the GS in order to have TEC expelled from the Anglican Communion are part of a wider Fascist movement, trying, under the conservative wing of the Republican Party, to dominate America.”

This is a joke, right?

Maduka
Maduka
14 years ago

John Henry,

Chris Hedges book is the latest in a long line of “the enemy is at the gates” books. It only serves to reinforce stereotypes, his degree from Harvard not withstanding.

If she invited Spong, then she is comfortable with Spong. Now Spong is at best controversial and at worst a heretic. Anyone who invites Spong to a retreat has some explaining to do.

Fr Joseph O'Leary
14 years ago

Let’s be fair here: mystical glorification of the ECUSA as a persecuted people that the Lord is freeing from a house of bondage is dangerous and irresponsible — it is a premature flirting with the intoxication of schism.

Spong-theology is indeed controversial, so let’s admit that the grousers have some grounds for worry.

Lumping fellow-Christians as part of a vast right-wing conspiracy is also a formula for cutting off dialogue prematurely.

drdanfee
drdanfee
14 years ago

Far from it, I fear. The tarnishing of people just because they dared be in the same rooms with Bishop Spong is so obvious that we must wonder what purpose it serves. You do not honor God or Jesus by avoiding any questions that a sincere human can think aloud. I find much resonance though not detailed doctrinal agreement with some of the Spong questions – he is hardly the first thinker or even first thinking believer to wonder them out loud, now is he? – and I still find his reach for new narratives to symbolize/speak limited and faltering.… Read more »

Leonardo Ricardo
Leonardo Ricardo
14 years ago

Dearest Maduka, Here are some examples of “explaining” that Bishop Spong did personally so you need not bother yourself or OUR Presiding Bishop Katharine Jefferts Schori with your demand of the “explaining” she must do for you and your overly insistant pals. “Today the popular evangelical voices are generally supportive of the Iraqi war, significantly silent on the evidence of abuse and torture in the cause of prosecuting that war, opposed to any issues revolving around either the origins of life, from stem cell research to abortion, or the end of life, such as the withdrawal of life support systems… Read more »

matthew hunt
matthew hunt
14 years ago

“Anyone who invites Spong to a retreat has some explaining to do”. (Maduka) No they don’t. Why on earth should they have to justify if they invited Stalin, Jack the Ripper, Billy Graham, or Spong? If anyone is willing to sit beside me and contemplate, discuss, and pray to God, then I would feel honoured by their company. If they held controversial views, so much the better: a great chance to challenge my assumptions and test my own belief systems. I want to work my way closer to the ‘truth’, I can’t see that it is helpful to close myself… Read more »

Göran Koch-Swahne
14 years ago

Chris,

There is nothing remotely funny about any of this (apart from the un-intentional slap-stick).

Maduka wrote:
3. “1. “If she invited Spong, then she is comfortable with Spong.”
2. “Now Spong is at best controversial and at worst a heretic.”
Anyone who invites Spong to a retreat has some explaining to do.”

No Maduka, No, No and No!

Rodney
Rodney
14 years ago

I wonder whether either Mr Virtue or a couple of commenters above have ever taken the trouble to read Spong with care and an open mind. For the people who belong to “the church alumni association” and quite a lot who are still inside the creaking institution he’s a breath of fresh air. I’ll go further: he’s that prophet who is without honour in his own country. More, I suspect that in a 100 years or so they’ll be talking about him as a Doctor of the Church. What do you reckon?

mynsterpreost (=David Rowett)
mynsterpreost (=David Rowett)
14 years ago

Now, really, Maduka! If Bishop Spong were completely barking mad, then it would be a little odd, but many people think he may have some important things to say even if the conclusions he draws are mistaken. By way of analogy, I have invited people to preach from time to time (no, not here, yet, pluralist) with whose theology I disagree, sometimes profoundly – but I respect the discipleship of the congregation sufficiently to trust them to see through the nonsense and to draw what insights there are from the individual concerned. Consequently your posting does rather sound like ‘any… Read more »

Ford Elms
Ford Elms
14 years ago

“Let’s be fair here: mystical glorification of the ECUSA as a persecuted people that the Lord is freeing from a house of bondage is dangerous and irresponsible — it is a premature flirting with the intoxication of schism. Spong-theology is indeed controversial, so let’s admit that the grousers have some grounds for worry. Lumping fellow-Christians as part of a vast right-wing conspiracy is also a formula for cutting off dialogue prematurely.” Yes, yes, and yes. Sadly, the Right has already done the first, witness the “reasserters” vs “reappraisers” that comes up so often in their argument. The word “revisionist” comes… Read more »

NP
NP
14 years ago

Spong is old hat – hardly anybody buys into his ideas.

The issue: was TEC right in its decisions, attitude to the AC and actions in 2003??
(Yes or NO?)

TEC deliberately and knowingly made this the issue despite many calls for restraint and dialogue…..

TEC – why don’t you have the courage to launch “TEC GLobal”, provide some leadership and let all those who agree with you around the world join you?

Ford Elms
Ford Elms
14 years ago

“The issue: was TEC right in its decisions, attitude to the AC and actions in 2003??” No, NP, the issue is whether or not TEC was right in its attitude to God and His Kingdom in 2003. And the sad thing about Spong is that people would rather froth at the mouth over his “apostacy” than actually discuss why his ideas are wrong. The latter course of action would bring about a strengthening of the Catholic faith, and a clarification for people like you of what that faith actually teaches. But it would mean not getting to feel morally superior,… Read more »

Spiro
Spiro
14 years ago

Re, mynsterpreost (=David Rowett) on Tuesday, 13 February 2007 posted: “Those for whom Abuja is no more than a little black dot on a map may find the following of interest: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/6355269.stm (End Quote). My question for you, mynsterpreost, is: What has the relative wealth/poverty/and other physical attributes of Abuja got to do with the issue of Who Christ is and What we Christians are called to be/do? I am sure that just a couple of months ago, you and other Christians were singing “O Little Town of Bethlehem……” Are you NOW forgetting that 2,000 years ago a babe was… Read more »

NP
NP
14 years ago

Ford says “No, NP, the issue is whether or not TEC was right in its attitude to God and His Kingdom in 2003” That does not conflict with what I said i.e. were the decisions made by TEC right or wrong? Sure – we will see if TEC Global grows or not. Some here are keen to tell me that large nos are not a sign of being right….but we will see. Really hoping for TEC Global to launch soon….I will be delivering the sign up forms to a few people in London and lobbying to make it easy for… Read more »

mynsterpreost (=David Rowett)
mynsterpreost (=David Rowett)
14 years ago

What a strange rant, Mr Spiro (‘Dum spiro, despiro’). For people ‘up here’, Abuja is one of those Developing World capitals about which we know very little. When a respected organisation like the BBC posts a page on its problems, and when a leading light in the GS movement is archbishop of said capital, it would not be unusual to commend said page to a wider audience in order that the background to ++Peter Abuja’s ministry is better understood. It appears from the link that the Abuja civil authorities have a very poor track record on caring for their citizens… Read more »

Göran Koch-Swahne
14 years ago

Le Monde c’est Moi ;=)

Ford Elms
Ford Elms
14 years ago

“Really hoping for TEC Global to launch soon….I will be delivering the sign up forms to a few people in London and lobbying to make it easy for them to go with their property and pensions!”
How does this square with 1 Corinthians 12, especially vv12 and beyond? How is your attitude not a selective reading of Scripture, and Bible mining, if you ignore this?

Spiro
Spiro
14 years ago

Re: mynsterpreost (=David Rowett, Dear David Rowett, I am sure you don’t think any of the readers and posters on this Blogsite is naïve or stupid. There is no connection between the problems we presently have in our Communion and your link to the BBC article on the dirty streets of Abuja. ++Akinola is neither the Mayor of Abuja, nor the President of Nigeria. He is not even a civil leader in that nation. God is not impressed by clean streets. He is appalled by the distorting of His CLEAR words and Commandments that is coming out of the beautiful… Read more »

NP
NP
14 years ago

Ford – it squares perfectly – St Paul was very clear that false teachers and false teaching were not to be included, tolerated, respected –

how would you deal with false teaching if you believed it was causing strife and dissension in the church?

mynsterpreost (=David Rowett)
mynsterpreost (=David Rowett)
14 years ago

Spiro – I don’t want to prolong a correspondence which is at a tangent from the thread. Nevertheless, if the 17m strong Anglican church in Nigeria has so little influence in Abuja’s development and ‘bias to the poor’ then what ARE they doing with their time? ++Peter claims that the Anglican Church had sufficient clout in the Nigerian parliament (via the Speaker) to influence the legislation on homosexuality. Does that clout not extend into the townships and cities of the nation? When in the 1980’s the poor were under the lash in Britain, a number of bishops and archbishops of… Read more »

Göran Koch-Swahne
14 years ago

Spiro wrote: “There is no connection between the problems we presently have in our Communion and your link to the BBC article on the dirty streets of Abuja.”

Then why are you making such a connection?

Ford Elms
Ford Elms
14 years ago

NP, I’m not sure. I do know I would not behave like +Akinola, +Duncan, +Iker in this matter. I certainly would not bear the kind of false witness that I see coming from the American Anglican Council. We agree that there must be some way of resolving disputes and of disciplining those who repeatedly refuse to acknowledge the Truth. We disagree entirely, it would appear, on how this is to be done. I accept that the “Conservatives” believe TEC’s stance to be wrong, unBiblical, even against God’s will. I do not, however, see anything Christian in their response to the… Read more »

NP
NP
14 years ago

Hi Ford. I would agree with you that there has been wrong behaviour on both sides( from me personally too!) and I have said before that I do not like language like “cancer which must be cut out” etc being used….however, I have not seen +Duncan behaving badly – maybe you have. I guess if you really felt there was heresy, ultimately you would have to exclude it, wouldn’t you? The GS and Western conservatives and charismatics feel there is heresy to deal with so there is a strong response – but I accept that response may not always be… Read more »

Ford Elms
Ford Elms
14 years ago

But, NP, you seem to idolize Bob Duncan. I try not to demonize the man, but there are many in his diocese who would disagree with your assessment of his character. As to false teaching, neither I, nor I assume you, are theologians, am I right? How does either of us then get to decide what’s false teaching and what’s not? You will probably say by reading the Bible, but the Bible is not for me or you to interpret on our own. It is the Church’s book, given to Her by God, under His guidance, and it is only… Read more »

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