Arora rebukes Anderson

The Archbishop of York’s Adviser on Communications, Arun Arora has responded to an article in the Church of England Newspaper, written by The Rev. Canon David C. Anderson, who is President, American Anglican Council and Secretary of the Anglican Communion Network.

Arun Arora’s response can be found on the archbishop’s website: Why Canon Anderson Got it Wrong.

Anglican Mainstream has linked to this response with the headline: York Diocesan website posts swingeing rebuttal of Anderson, Phillips.

Here are the links to the articles by David Phillips which are also mentioned:
Telegraph reports Sentamu saying sexual ethics are not core issues
Archbishop Sentamu on Unity

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Cheryl Clough
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“In our view homosexual practice breaks the direct commands of God, it denies the purposes of God in creating us male and female…” God created Adam. There was no Eve. If sexuality was a core part of our identity and relationship with God, then why did God not create Adam and Eve at the same time? If sexuality is a core purpose of humanity, why does God exhort us to honor and have loving non-sexual relations e.g. to care for the elderly, the alien, our children. Why does the bible respect a wide range of humans, from the celibate to… Read more »

NP
Guest
NP

All the criticism has obviously touched a nerve in York! Arora refers to “liberal bandits” and liberal “extremists” in trying to pretend that critics are fixating on Spong et al …..i.e. people from the past who do not represent many Episcopalians (they never did)….but Anderson quoted TEC’s Presiding Bishop, amongst other current leaders,….also “liberal bandits” and “extremists” according to Arora?? Arora may want to miss the point but the current leadership of TEC brought the AC the VGR fait accompli and the last four years of resulting turmoil as they continue to refuse to agree to the repeated requests of… Read more »

JPM
Guest
JPM

Perhaps this will teach Can(n)on Anderson not to be quite so casual with accusations of heresy.

Or, of course, it could just encourage him, since, as he says, he stays in the church because “I like a good fight.” Looks like Sentamu is willing to give him one.

Columba Gilliss
Guest
Columba Gilliss

Cheryl,
Read Genesis 1.27.
Otherwise I second your message.
Columba

Steven
Guest
Steven

You’ve got it NP. This article is a hoot! The presenting issue is just the tip of the iceberg. To pretend otherwise is to adopt blindness as a way of dealing with the issues.

Steven

C.B.
Guest
C.B.

Interesting little catch-22 that Anderson(and others) have found themselves in. They know that reasserters are perceived here in the U.S. as those people who are against gays and that, unless you are a fundamentalist, homosexuality is not a matter of core doctrine. However, they can’t afford to be viewed as merely fundamentalists, it is a very narrow appeal – that most moderate Episcopalian recoil from. So he refers to it as a “tertiary” issue (not even secondary) to try and refocus the nature of the conflict to core beliefs, and in so doing practically concedes the high ground to ECUSA,… Read more »

Pluralist
Guest

I don’t think Canon Anderson was “trying to pin his ass’s tail on the Archbishop of York”. Arun Arora’s response is rather forceful given the weakness identified in the article by Anderson. It was a point I made earlier: I doubt there is any difference in the of range of beliefs between American bishops and English bishops – and we do know of the tendency of retired English, Scottish and Welsh bishops to suddenly liberalise their published beliefs. Richard Holloway now writes some excellent books. I am sure American bishops do the same. Arun Arora’s response is also odd in… Read more »

Pluralist
Guest

I see that the Archbishop of York’s “not core” views are not shared by Bishop Michael Nazir-Ali given his highlighting of this point. Bishop Michael Nazir-Ali is even at it in Iran: talking about the Transfiguration, and, in linking it to resurrection, saying: “That is why Paul’s words in Colossians 3 in our other lesson all depend on the resurrection of Jesus. If we are raised with Jesus we are to set our hearts on things above where Christ is. We are to take off what is not desirable – including sexual immorality, evil desires and greed, which is called… Read more »

Cynthia Gilliatt
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Cynthia Gilliatt

The comments from Anderson are sameold sameold – as if biblical scholarship of the last 150 years or so had not taken place. The only surprise was that he did not remember to beat up on poor old dead Bishop Pike, but I guess a live, although retired, Spong is a more tempting target. Spong in his wilder moments is certainly not typical of theological thought in TEC, which makes him a cheap punching bag. In fact, a good deal that some find shocking in Spong’s work was articulated long ago by another Bishop Robinson in his book “Honest to… Read more »

Leonardo Ricardo
Guest
Leonardo Ricardo

Arun Arora is some communicator…he actually deals in facts, you know, REAL facts and isn’t afraid to say NO…perhaps Arun Arora ought offer clarity classes for Canon Tunde and a few of the other “communication dabblers and factual inventors” for Global South Primates…can you imagine what would happen if ALL actually spoke only TRUTH?

Preaching TRUTH is a nice idea too, thank you Archbishop of York for NOT twisting TRUTH to torment others.

John Henry
Guest
John Henry

As the Rev. Susan Russell points out, Mr. David C Anderson still uses the honorary title “Canon” conferred on him by the “heretical” Bishop of Los Angeles.

Folks like him, who would love to break up the Anglican Communion, have no honor.

NP
Guest
NP

Never thought I would say it….but PLURALIST IS RIGHT….this response from Arora is so flawed because it is an attempt to defend Sentamu (and it seems a rather emotional attempt too, if not a persuasive attempt) As I said above, Sentamu made an obviously daft statement to the papers….not time to attack those who point out the flaws in what he says but to clarify what he actually thinks and what he wanted to communicate. I think he wanted to communicate a wish that we all sweep inconvenient issues under the carpet ad pretend to be united….but if he was… Read more »

Chris
Guest
Chris

I would argue Spong is still relevant for two reasons: 1) His views have never been officially challenged or dismissed by TEC. Many other churches would have labeled him a heretic and taken disciplinary action while he was in office; TEC has never denounced these ideas even after his retirement. 2) You’re more likely to find his books at the bookstore than anything John Stott – or even Borg – has written. Only Billy Graham or Joel Osteen seems to be easier to find at the mega-chain book sellers here in the US. His writings still have influence in the… Read more »

Göran Koch-Swahne
Guest

Anyone except me who thinks of an Auror?

Curtis
Guest
Curtis

Am I the only one noticing this is a deviation from the usual passivity from Canterbury and York? What do I know. I’m an Episcopalian. I’m glad to see it. Reaction, finally, with a better appreciation for the issues, needs to be just this swift and well articulated. Anderson was bested in this response, and NP, your out of your senses if you’ve convinced yourself otherwise. Anderson’s case is as flimsy as the fanaticism he speaks from. The wing-nuts have overstated their case and over-reacted. When they were given the chance to listen and dialogue, they took to ad hominen… Read more »

rick allen
Guest
rick allen

“…spread a bit of poison while you are at it.”

I don’t quite get what the “poison” is. The lectionary passage from Colossians?

C.B.
Guest
C.B.

It’s all a matter of whether the issue is viewed as a “tertiary” issue or a core issue. Gomez says its core and TEC is faithless for tampering with it. York says it’s “tertiary” but that TEC reamins faithful to primary issues. So, Anderson in his zeal for purity steps in and tries to say it is tertiary, but TEC is faithless leaving the core doctrines. Arora responds and ups Anderson’s anti. He says – by challenging the ABY’s position regarding the faithfulness of TEC, you are in effect challenging the ABY. The ABY has said many of they same… Read more »

Ford Elms
Guest
Ford Elms

I am intrigued that whenever the accusaton is made by the “reasserters” that the issue us about Biblical authority, they never define how their concept of Biblical authority differs from that of those they oppose. They, of course, go on to imply that their opponents are a bunch of evil syncretists who believe both everything and nothing. That and their fascination with where people go after they die and how vital it is to spread the Gospel as fast as possible, and I suspect by any means necessary, since the ultimate issue: who roasts in Hell and who doesn’t, depends… Read more »

(The Revd) Michael Povey
Guest
(The Revd) Michael Povey

The following as an extract from a recent e-mail I sent to an English Priest who is a severe critic of ECUSA. I think that it is apposite to the Arora/Anderson “dialogue”. —— In this beloved Province, which has been my spiritual home for 31 years the poor are being blessed, the hungry fed, the naked clothed and the prisoners visited. The Gospel is being proclaimed in a multitude of Dioceses and Parishes in which lives are being transformed and converted in the risen Lord Jesus Christ. This is a Province in which the Holy Scriptures are confessed to be… Read more »

Cheryl Clough
Guest

Columba Thanks. That was an interesting referral. Karen Armstrong might chuckle its the consequence of a theoretical (dare we say prophetic?) holy text written in Jeremiah’s times. The interesting thing that came out of that study was that God created man and woman at the same time Genesis 1.27. But God put the man to work in the Garden of Eden before the woman (Genesis 2:15-20). But not having found a suitable helper (end of Genesis 2:20), God put the man to sleep and made the woman from part of Adam (Genesis 2:21-23). Then God declared that for this reason… Read more »

Lois Keen
Guest
Lois Keen

Referring to Goran’s question, “Anyone except me who thinks of an Auror?”, for the Harry Potterly challenged, from Wikepedia:
“In the Harry Potter book series, Aurors are an elite unit of the Department of Magical Law Enforcement of the British Ministry of Magic, who track down and capture criminals, in particular those criminals who pose a danger to the wizarding community.”
And, no, Goran, you were not the only one to think of them!
Lois Keen

Malcolm+
Guest
Malcolm+

Chris claims Spong is relevant because (in part): “You’re more likely to find his books at the bookstore than anything John Stott – or even Borg – has written.”

So the fact that Spong is a more engaging writer (engaging being a thing distinct from correct) with a better literary agent is “evidence” that his theology is representative of the Episcopal Church.

Off all the silly tripe I’ve ever read online, this approaches the silliest.

JCF
Guest
JCF

Here’s a radically, orthodox notion:

All the Episcopalians Anderson quotes ARE orthodox!

It is their vicious detractors, like Anderson, who will have to answer for their sin of *false witness*, before the Throne of Christ.

Lord have mercy!

choirboyfromhell
Guest
choirboyfromhell

Referring to Goran’s musings about “aurors”, I would say more like ++York applying flesh eating slug repellant.

Davis d'Ambly
Guest
Davis d'Ambly

Chris, you are really far more likely to find Christopher Hitchens new book than anything Bp Spong ever wrote. What’s you point here? I suppose you’d have preferred he’d been burned at the stake.

He’s retired and frankly to me he’s irrelevant.

Cynthia Gilliatt
Guest
Cynthia Gilliatt

would argue Spong is still relevant for two reasons: 1) His views have never been officially challenged or dismissed by TEC. Many other churches would have labeled him a heretic and taken disciplinary action while he was in office; TEC has never denounced these ideas even after his retirement. Oh dear! We don’t have a TEC Inquisition Too bad! See – that’s what Anglicanism and TEC are all about – read Sir Thomas Browne on adiaphora. 2) You’re more likely to find his books at the bookstore than anything John Stott – or even Borg – has written. Gee –… Read more »

James
Guest
James

Even more than Spong or Stott, you’d find C. S. Lewis, who I think is pretty mainstream.

Scott Henthorn
Guest
Scott Henthorn

JFC, Do you really think this idea is sensible? This is newspeak at its best. Radical Orthodoxy is oxymoronic. We don’t get to just make things up as we go along. Spong at least would deny any such Throne. I find this whole string telling. Only two posters are able to see that agreeing with Arora is nothing any self respecting liberal could do. To see progressives treating Bp. Spong like an eccentric uncle ranting to himself in the corner is ignoble. There are great differences in our thinking. This is a time for honesty, not pretend. As a visiting… Read more »

NP
Guest
NP

Why are some always trying to muddy the waters and find divisions? Maybe to get away from the fact that a huge majority in the AC do agree that TEC is way out of line….and, dare I say it, gravely mistaken (i.e. wrong) on certin issues? If you think about it, we see a remarkable amount of agreement in the AC – just look at Dromantine, TWR and the Tanzania Communique. Lots of agreement on the cause of current AC problems and also on solutions. I know some do not like these facts…but they do show unity and are EVIDENCE… Read more »

mynsterpreost (=David Rowett)
Guest
mynsterpreost (=David Rowett)

CS Lewis? Remember that many proper bible believing Christians in the US hold the Narnia chronicles to be satanic.

Sara MacVane
Guest
Sara MacVane

Thanks to Michael Povey from an American priest in the C-of-E.

Cheryl Clough
Guest

There was an inclusive reformist rabbi and his following that were very popular with the masses. History tells of the consternation that Jesus and his followers’ teachings were more influential than the established scribes or Roman authorities. Jeremiah 31:6-35, Isaiah 35 or Isaiah 33:20-24 “Look upon Zion… your eyes will see Jerusalem, a peaceful abode… It will be like a place of broad rivers and streams… the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver, the LORD is our king; it is he who will save us… an abundance of spoils will be divided and EVEN THE LAME will… Read more »

Göran Koch-Swahne
Guest

“There are great differences in our thinking. This is a time for honesty, not pretend.”

Maybe you should start here… With admitting the differences;

They are real. They go back centuries.

444 years to be exact.

It is y o u r Teachings and y o u r Dogmatics (those of Calvinism) that are different.

Different from those of the Church.

“As a visiting guerilla reasserter I ask you to not sell your cause to the lowest bidder. In chastising us Arora insulted us all.”

And never were there any creatures on God’s good Earth as easily insulted.

NP
Guest
NP

Michael Povey asks “When will our critics enter into the conversations which Lambeth 1998 desired?” Well, people have been listening for decades and are not convinced…..but maybe we would listen more carefully if some were not trying to force us to accept bishops who just ignore certain very clear positions of the church, rejecting scripture and tradition. You add to why Arora is wrong in the attempted defence of Sentamu’s inaccurate newspaper statements – Arora is wrong partly because so many in TEC seem to think that since people have not agreed with their innovations (eg VGR), they cannot have… Read more »

C.B.
Guest
C.B.

mynsterpreost – Was it Narnia? I thought it was Harry Potter.

Chris
Guest
Chris

NP,

Agreed. We’ve also listened to and rejected the social gospel, historical criticism, the Jesus Seminar and the prosperity gospel.

Pat O'Neill
Guest
Pat O'Neill

NP: “Maybe to get away from the fact that a huge majority in the AC do agree that TEC is way out of line….and, dare I say it, gravely mistaken (i.e. wrong) on certin issues?” Is it perhaps more truthful to say that the LEADERS of a huge majority in the AC hold that position? I find it hard to believe that the poverty-stricken, hand-to-mouth rank-and-file parishioners of the Nigerian Church (or any other part of the Global South) give a tinker’s dam what the US church does or believes. This is where the GS position falls apart–especially when it… Read more »

Scott Henthorn
Guest
Scott Henthorn

Goran,

I will have to spend some time looking at your blog before I can accept your verdict of Calvinism for my ilk. Though you jump to conclusions. I am not actually offended by Arora’s comments. They are too weak to have that affect. My point is that in defending the ABoY he stands for no-one.

NP
Guest
NP

Pat – well, if you go to Africa and Asia (as I have many times), you will find even the very poor Anglicans are quite clear that VGR is not acceptable….poverty does not make one reject the bible or tradition. Ironically, it is the wealthy part of the Anglican church which has been arrogant enough effectively to say “we know better than the bible on this issue!” Do you want us to hook up all 77m Anglicans with wireless voting devices so we can have a plebiscite on every issue? Unless you really think the Primates are completely unrepresentative of… Read more »

Steven
Guest
Steven

Strange that so many want to label all reasserters as Calvinists. Some are, but some are also anglocatholics, and others (like me) would define themselves–like C.S. Lewis–as being not particularly “high” or “low” churchmen. The vast majority of churchmen/churchwomen reacting against innovations in TEC probably have never heard of TULIP (which may say something about the average level of theological education in TEC churches, but that is another matter). They would, however, cheerfully affirm the beliefs set forth in the classic BCP as their own. So, how are they not Anglican in their beliefs? Overall, this “Calvinist” thing seems to… Read more »

Pluralist
Guest

_We’ve also listened to and rejected the social gospel, historical criticism, the Jesus Seminar…_ Chris You may have, but many of us have not. These three are very useful tools. I repeat that I see no particular difference between the range of beliefs in the Anglican leadership in TEC and in the Church of England. Now I don’t know what orthodoxy is any more because so many people claim it, but what I see is a variety of beliefs. In having that variety and viewing it as legitimate, I’m just saying can we recognise variety for what it is? One… Read more »

Erika Baker
Guest
Erika Baker

Chris
“We’ve also listened to and rejected the social gospel, historical criticism, the Jesus Seminar and the prosperity gospel”

Do you always listen and then either accept or reject wholesale, or do you sometimes find grains of truth and new insights in something and allow your faith to develop a little, even if you don’t accept the idea in its entirety?

This is a genuine question, as my own faith development is much more gradual than the wholesale acceptance or rejection of new thoughts.

Neil
Guest
Neil

Good points Pat. The so-called ‘majority’ to whom NP refers are simply pawns in the power politics of the weak ‘minority’ of TEC who will not agree to coexist with the TEC majority. They, and their co-religionists, would unchurch those with whom they disagree.
Whereas nobody has ever tried to unchurch them.
NPs brand of religion I find most unattractive and unappealing, and with an absence of that charity one would expect to characterise healthy religion. But I would never dream of wanting to unchurch those who have tied themselves to a version of the faith which I regard as very sub-Catholic.

Malcolm+
Guest
Malcolm+

Scott objects to the idea of “radical orthodoxy” as oxymoronic. “Radical,” from the Latin “radis,” meaning root. “Orthodox,” from the Greek, meaning “right belief.” I see no inherent contradiction. True orthodoxy is an inherently a radical thing. True radicalism, having gone to the root of the issue, is inclined to orthodoxy. On the matter of the former Bishop of Newark: The fact that his books are more widely available than some other authors is, of course, irrelevant. Unless, of course, one wants to argue that the Episcopal Church somehow controls what books secular publishers choose to publish and what books… Read more »

mynsterpreost (=David Rowett)
Guest
mynsterpreost (=David Rowett)

Chris said:
NP,
Agreed. We’ve also listened to and rejected the social gospel, historical criticism….

Rejected Historical Criticism eh? FWIW, looking at most ConsEv publications, they kowtow to it when they would find it embarrassing not to (eg six days of creation, the world-wide nature of the Noachic flood) and reject it whenever they think they can get away with it. ‘Maximal conservatism’ they call it, and it is an unprincipled abomination.

JCF
Guest
JCF

“Radical Orthodoxy is oxymoronic.”

Um, why, Scott?

“We don’t get to just make things up as we go along.”

Indeed not. Now I’m nuthin’ but a sinner dependant on Christ’s mercy—but I’m also an Anglican lifer, 45 years. Formed on Scripture, Tradition and Reason, throughout. Sharing Christ’s Body & Blood almost every Sunday for the duration (Praise Christ!).

…and *accountable* to my faith community if I WERE “making things up as I went along.”

Seriously, Scott: you don’t know me.

Lord have mercy!

Chris
Guest
Chris

Erika,

If an idea is based on presuppositions I reject, there is little chance I will accept the idea. Fairly basic logic that has nothing to do with “development.”

choirboyfromhell
Guest
choirboyfromhell

Steven: On the first major ridge heading west out of New York City, just across the Delaware, is a retreat center run by the Presbyterians. To say it is liberal would insulting to the granola-eating set that oversees the place. I managed to get greatly incensed and yet somehow inspired listening to Carter Heyward many years ago there. Yes, that’s listening, when it makes you feel uncomfortable, maybe you’re finding out that you don’t know all there is to know. Back out on the ship in six days for sixty. I’m sure when the GREAT REJECTION as [miss]predicted some windy… Read more »

Cheryl Clough
Guest

I agree with Erika, that it’s not a case of throwing out the whole lolly bag; there is a merit of sifting through to find the gems that are worthy of attention. Mediocre intellects and those seeking to create a propaganda image reject wholesale, that way they don’t have to engage in discussions of the merits of the possible gems with enthusiastic parishioners. They claim whole texts are “evil” and that souls will “lose their way” if they read certain authors. All that has achieved is a “dumping down” of theology. It means they can avoid teaching priests beyond the… Read more »

Pat O'Neill
Guest
Pat O'Neill

“…you will find even the very poor Anglicans are quite clear that VGR is not acceptable….poverty does not make one reject the bible or tradition.”

But how have the “very poor Anglicans” learned of VGR…and what have they been told? If all the info is coming from top down–“those heretic Americans have ordained a queer as bishop”–then they are still following the leaders, as opposed to the leaders taking direction from their flock.