Thinking Anglicans

another Nigerian opinion

Updated Thursday

The Bishop of Uyo, which is in south-eastern Nigeria, has said something that is causing a stir:

Cleric condemns homosexuals, lesbians

Sept. 2 (UPI) — Uyo, Sept. 2, 2007 (NAN) The Anglican Bishop of Uyo, Rt. Rev. Isaac Orama, has condemned the activities of homosexuals and lesbians, and described those engaged in them as “insane people”. “It is scaring that any one should be involved in a thing like that and I want to say that they will not escape the wrath of God,” he said. Orama told the News Agency of Nigeria (NAN) today in Uyo, that the practice, which has worsened over the years, was “unbiblical and against God’s purpose for creating man”. Homosexuals – 2 “Homosexuality and lesbianism are inhuman. Those who practice them are insane, satanic and are not fit to live because they are rebels to God’s purpose for man,” the Bishop said. He noted that the Anglican Church in Nigeria had continued to lead the fight against the practice especially in the US where it led the opposition to same sex marriages. “The aim of such fight is to provide a safe place for those who want to remain faithful Anglicans and Biblical Christians,” he explained.(NAN) NS/IFY/ETS

Changing Attitude has issued this: Davis Mac-Iyalla challenges Bishop Orama’s attack on lesbian and gay people.

Fr Jake has commented here: Bp. Orama: “Insane, Satanic Gays Not Fit to Live”.

Update
This story has resulted in unusually strong editorial opinions from two conservative American Anglican blogs:

titusonenine Kendall Harmon: A Statement to be Condemned without Reservation and

Stand Firm Greg Griffith Unfit for the Episcopacy?

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Lapinbizarre
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Lapinbizarre

Kendall Harmon has posted this exceedingly strongly-worded statement on T19: I was very disgusted, upset and saddened to read the statement of Bishop Isaac Orama as quoted by the News Agency of Nigeria in a UPI story who, (if he is quoted accurately, and I am assuming that he is) said that persons involved in same sex behavior “are insane, satanic and are not fit to live.” ….. It immediately brings to mind the Nazi language of Lebensunwertes Leben (“life unworthy of life”) and in flood images and activities too horrendous and horrific for any of us to take in… Read more »

Lapinbizarre
Guest
Lapinbizarre

PS Greg Griffith uses even stronger language at StandFirm: “…. if the quote is accurate, then Bishop Minns and Archbishop Akinola need to come forward with a statement just as quickly, which contains an unqualified condemnation of +Orama’s remark as abhorrent, and unfitting of the office of the Anglican episcopacy, and Bishop Orama should be removed from office immediately. If that’s not canonically possible for Archbishop Akinola to do, then he needs to mete what punishment the canons allow him to. Describing homosexuals as “unfit to live,” or implying that that sentiment is in any way part of the Gospel… Read more »

Curtis
Guest
Curtis

If there ever were a need for alternative primatial oversight it’s the gay and lesbian populations of Africa. I don’t consider myself “in communion” with the bishops of province that smears people that way with impunity.

John Wall
Guest
John Wall

This is so helpful. I am grateful to Bishop Orama of Nigeria who has clarified for us all what it means to be a Biblical Christian and what it means to be a faithful Anglican. It all comes down to believing that “Homosexuality and lesbianism are inhuman. Those who practice them are insane, satanic, and are not fit to live because they are rebels to God’s purpose for man.” There. Now we have it. Now we understand Moses and the Prophets, and know why Jesus died on the cross. Now we know that Cranmer and Hooker and Temple were trying… Read more »

Cheryl Clough
Guest

Not even animals practice homosexual behaviour? Hmm. Better stay away from the science journals and webpages. There’s heaps of evidence to the contrary. Some don’t need facts from the real world to have a biblical opinion. The good thing is that souls are admitting they are interfering with the decision making process in other nations, and they are proud of it. Also that they are prepared to invoke the wrath of God and advocate the death of “unsuitables”. Some of the moderates who were concerned that some souls were drawing the parallels towards the development of nazism might want to… Read more »

Anthony
Guest
Anthony

I am getting very suspicious about this news item. I cannot find it through Google or Yahoo. If I go to UPI through their home portal I cannot find it in their archives. I cannot find it on NAN who are said to have originated the story. I cannot find it on the archives of the Nigerian Media website. I cannot find it on the Nigerian Guardian. Others have failed to find it on All Africa or the Nigeria Times. The date on the article is September 2, 3-4 days ago depending on where you are. All the blogosphere references… Read more »

NP
Guest
NP

Disgraceful…..this guy certainly has not been listening…to the bible

But – pls do not try to write off +Duncan and +Durham and +London and most of the Primates supporting Lambeth 1.10 on this basis ….. that does not follow

NP
Guest
NP

If this report is true and the guy does not resign, he should be fired.

Interesting to see how ++Akinola deals with this…..I am sure he will be furious with the unbiblical statements of +Isaac

Pluralist
Guest

Whether true or not the report that has “the reporter could be assaulted if he asked worshipers about the issue” on homosexuality shows the violence implicit in these so called Christian communities (this was an the Kenyan consecrations, the Boston report).

Lapinbizarre
Guest
Lapinbizarre

When I wrote above that “it is sad, but at the same time comforting, that something this extreme has brought us to a common understanding” I did not for a moment suppose that we were on the verge of the Peaceable Kingdom. I do, however, believe that good will come of this. In immediate terms, Akinola and Co have been hopelessly wrong-footed – and on the eve of the New Orleans meeting. It will be far easier for TEC and Archbishop Williams to proceed as they see best without factoring in “Global South” response at every twist in the road.… Read more »

ettu
Guest
ettu

Does anyone care to have a gentleman’s wager on how long it will take Akinola to comment on Orama’s statement??

Kurt
Guest
Kurt

Folks may be interested in this new blog site, part of an effort to demand that Akinola repudiate this disgraceful statement by one of his bishops, and that he take action against him.
http://akinolarepent.wordpress.com/

Chris
Guest
Chris

Orama is no more representative of conservatives than Spong is of liberals…

Davis d'Ambly
Guest
Davis d'Ambly

Anthony – it was indeed available on a Google search Wednesday AM but by the afternoon mysteriously disappeared. I’m not sure what that means.

Ford Elms
Guest
Ford Elms

“But – pls do not try to write off +Duncan and +Durham and +London and most of the Primates supporting Lambeth 1.10 on this basis ….. that does not follow” It DOES follow, NP. The kind of rhetoric being spewed out by people like Iker, Duncan, and +Akinola creates the environment where such statements can be made, and where ordinary people are led to act on them. These are people who believe and quote propaganda against gay people, as we saw earlier this week with Bp. Attwood. It creates the environment described in another thread about a piece in the… Read more »

Ford Elms
Guest
Ford Elms

For people like Griffith and Harmon to take the stand they do is laughable. This is the logical outcome of the environment they have helped create by their rhetoric and fear mongering, so how do they get off getting so huffy? Rather than try to distance themselves from this, they should be acknowledging their own role in it all and seeking metanoia. But then, that would risk damaging one’s public image for the sake of one’s soul, and what would be gained by that?

NP
Guest
NP

Lapin says “When StandFirm and T19 will issue immediate “editorial” statements of this type, attitudes are indeed changing.”

Er….not really.
The reported horrible statements of one guy in Nigeria would have got the same objections from most evangelicals last year and 10 years and 20+ years ago, Rabbit!

You will not see T19 and Stand Firm saying, “Given the disgusting reported statements of one Nigerian, we have to agree that VGR is acceptable as a bishop in the AC” – this simply does not follow…………..

Malcolm+
Guest
Malcolm+

I note that the StandFirm list of those included in “Lebensunwertes Leben,” including Jews, the handicapped etc., misses one significant group the Nazis targetted. Indeed, one significant group with a direct interest in the Bishop’s comments. I presume everyone here knows the origin of the pink triangle symbol used by lesbigay advocates. It was the homosexual parallel to the yellow Star of David. Each “Lebensunwertes Leben” subgroup in the concentration camp had a different patch to wear. I was also struck by one of the final comments on the Titus 1:9 thread, where Alice claimed that, as an anti-gay person… Read more »

Ford Elms
Guest
Ford Elms

“Orama is no more representative of conservatives than Spong is of liberals” Since my above post, I have been thinking about this very thing, perhaps I am guilty of what I deplore in “the other side”. Perhaps it is just a few hotheads. “You will not see T19 and Stand Firm saying, “Given the disgusting reported statements of one Nigerian, we have to agree that VGR is acceptable as a bishop in the AC” – this simply does not follow” Of course, that’s not anyone has been saying, but you do love tilting at windmills! Malcolm, “I wonder where these… Read more »

Lapinbizarre
Guest
Lapinbizarre

Bull-doo, NP!!! Didn’t get a peep out of either of ’em a few months back when Akinola was spouting hate and pushing for legislation in Nigeria banning organizations and jailing individuals who dared advocate toleration of homosexuality – legislation so flat-out discriminatory that the Bush Adminstration State Department opposed it! The theory I saw expounded on this site (by whom?) that by so doing Akinola was forging a weapon to use against TEC – as an “organization supportive of gay rights” – if it ever countered his actions by following his lead and setting up alternative episcopal oversight in Nigeria,… Read more »

Lapinbizarre
Guest
Lapinbizarre

” ….than Spong is of liberals…” The Godwin’s Law of Knee-Jerk Evangelical Reaction seems to be kicking in early today.

Chris
Guest
Chris

Ford, You can’t have it both ways. You say conservatives create situations like this, but that conservatives miss the point when they attempt to correct these situations. I have not heard anything that remotely sounds anything like this from the leading conservative bishops and clergy here in the US. There may be an issue of perspective, but I would be shocked if there was anything that even hinted at condoning violence or less-then-human status for LGBT (Gene Robinson’s lamentations not withstanding). Assuming these reports are true, the issue w/ Robinson and Orama is the same: leaders are held to a… Read more »

John Henry
Guest
John Henry

“Alice claimed that, as an anti-gay person in North America she was at greater risk of violence than a gay person in Nigeria.”

Of course, Alice was the ‘victim’ of a reappraiser bishop in TEC, who inhibited her (i.e., suspended her from the priesthood) for whatever reasons. Now she is a convert to Eastern Orthodoxy.

Cheryl Clough
Guest

Lapin wrote “I do, however, believe that good will come of this.” I agree. It will not happen overnight, but it will happen. We already have some early signs e.g. Akinola losing the post to represent Nigerian Christianity after shameful organizational politicking. That might not affect the Nigerian Anglicans, but the other souls from the other denominations would have seen what was attempted against their own institutions’ representatives. It doesn’t take rocket science to go back and contemplate that such things might also be happening within the Nigerian Anglican communion itself. Then when you see similar testimonies, organizational politicking and… Read more »

Malcolm+
Guest
Malcolm+

Ford, I am aware of the Evangelical delusion about persecution. But “shot?”

We can easily create a list of hundreds of people shot, stabbed, beaten to death and even crucified every year because they are gay. We can count on one hand (and maybe even no hand at all) the number of people murdered just for hating gays.

Göran Koch-Swahne
Guest

She was a female priest who turned anti WO.

(Don’t ask)

NP
Guest
NP

Lapin….the point stands, NOBODY is going to excuse the ordination of drunks, adulterers or any other person disqualified for the ministry (according to scripture) because of the horribble statements of one Nigerian.

Mynsterpreost (=David Rowett)
Guest
Mynsterpreost (=David Rowett)

NP: “NOBODY is going to excuse the ordination of drunks” Well, it would be so embarrassing when they couldn’t make the necessary declarations of assent without clutching their heads and moaning ‘och, ma heid’. Not to mention asking the organist to play more quietly. Actually, if alcoholism is an illness (as most are agreed) and not a moral failing, I think you’re a bit off beam there old boy. “NO-ONE is going to excuse the ordination of diabetics” hmm???? And what about overweight clergy? Anyway, speaking as one who rolled back from his wedding anniversary dinner having over-eaten and over-imbibed,… Read more »

Ford Elms
Guest
Ford Elms

“I would be shocked if there was anything that even hinted at condoning violence or less-then-human status for LGBT “ Well, they might not say it themselves, at least pubically, but they make common cause with those who do. Rushdoony has publically advocated a return to stoning! Now, he’s no bishop, but he IS one of the emminences grises connected to IRD and involoved in the funding of this. Ahmanson(?) is much the same. That doesn’t mean people are payed to do their will, but it does reveal something of a shared mindset, one held to varying degrees by some… Read more »

Lapinbizarre
Guest
Lapinbizarre

“Lapin….the point stands”. Just as the fantasy claim that immediately precedes it – “the reported horrible statements of one guy in Nigeria would have got the same objections from most evangelicals last year and 10 years and 20+ years ago”, also stands? Assertions are not arguments, NP. Constant reaffirmation of “Lambeth 1.10” (those bits of it that suit our purpose, at any rate) but refusal to accord equal honour to Lambeth V.13; never-ending appeals to the Windsor process, though the ABC has certified TEC as “Windsor compliant”, while just this month three Global South provinces have gleefully ripped apart Windsor… Read more »

Cheryl Clough
Guest

Blush.

I know I should know this, but so many labels have been bandied around that I’ve lost track.

Could someone please indulge me with an explanation of what “reappraiser” is, perhaps at two levels. The “stereotype” and then where variations tend to occur.

I just don’t get the Alice thing, and that piece of the jigsaw might help.

counterlight
Guest
counterlight

“Lapin….the point stands, NOBODY is going to excuse the ordination of drunks, adulterers or any other person disqualified for the ministry (according to scripture) because of the horribble statements of one Nigerian.” As I recall, there are Levitical commands to stone drunks and adulterers to death, Perhaps Bishop Orama is being very strictly Biblical, purely and simply, in his comments. As far as I’m concerned, the cat is out of the bag. This whole tiff was always about a deep reluctance to accept LGBTs fully as brothers and sisters in the Church or anywhere else. All the appeals to theology,… Read more »

Ford Elms
Guest
Ford Elms

Mynster, Dan Savage says that if conservatives want to put a stop to gay sex, they shouldlet gay people adopt, since nothing stops sexual activiy like an infant in the house! While I do agree with you on alcoholism, it is still interesting to note that in modern society, the Seven Deadlies are all now either illnesses or virtues. But note the “disqualifies” idea, as though someone discerns a call from God, the diocese discerns that call from God, but that person is “disqualified” for some reason. The episcopate is thus just another job, and God’s call is what? A… Read more »

NP
Guest
NP

Mynster – whether alcoholism is a disease or an addiction, it is hardly in the same category as diabetes, is it?? Your logic would also leave us with cocaine addicts as vicars….if we are being logical.

From Titus Ch 1 – “For an overseer, as God’s steward, must be above reproach. He must not be arrogant or quick-tempered or a drunkard or violent or greedy for gain, but hospitable, a lover of good, self-controlled, upright, holy, and disciplined”

cryptogram
Guest
cryptogram

I wonder which version of Titus 1:7 NP is quoting. Reference to the text would make clear to him that Paul (if indeed it be he) is using a word with a very specific meaning, and both NRSV and NIV are closer to the original than NP’s version. Episkopoi shouldn’t be given to “Friday night *behaviour* on the streets of most of our towns” This is not to deny for a moment that drunkenness should be a severe no-no: I remember a confirmation sermon (I think from Nigel McCulloch) pointing out that bishops wear an amethyst as a reminder not… Read more »

Ford Elms
Guest
Ford Elms

“Mynster – whether alcoholism is a disease or an addiction, it is hardly in the same category as diabetes, is it?? Your logic would also leave us with cocaine addicts as vicars….if we are being logical.”

Well, yes it is, NP, a disease is a disease. If one is treated for one’s illness, why shouldn’t one be a bishop? Because one might fall ill again? How does illness “disqualify” one for episcopacy? So, yes, we might end up with TREATED cocaine addicts as rectors. What’s the issue?

Ford Elms
Guest
Ford Elms

“NRSV and NIV are closer to the original than NP’s version”

But, unfortunately, they do not allow for the downgrading of a bishop to an overseer, as though a bishop is some kind of middle management employee whose job is the running of some corporation’s local branch office.

liddon
Guest
liddon

here’s how misunderstandings start. the charming story about the amethyst isn’t interpreted by anyone (even bishop mcculloch) as a directive not to be drunk on wine. it is a quotation from the apostles at pentecost – ‘we are not drunk, but filled with the holy spirit’, so the amethyst ring is a sign of the pentecostal calling of the apostles (bishops). it’s a small shift of exegeis, but an important one, and i think it illustrates why we are in the trouble we are. there are those who have elevated a single, false interpretation of a text above all others,… Read more »

Malcolm+
Guest
Malcolm+

Of course “alcoholism” and “drunkenness” are not the same thing.

Erika Baker
Guest
Erika Baker

“Your logic would also leave us with cocaine addicts as vicars….if we are being logical.”

And why not?
Anyone who battles or has battled with the depth of the human condition, has found strength in God and has something to say about His saving love is surely a more important and interesting voice to be heard than someone who never puts a foot wrong and lacks any empathy with those he’s preaching to.

liddon
Guest
liddon

Erika, you’re quite right, as usual, but i would want to add, strongly, that i don’t like to link homosexuality with cocaine addiction or anything like that. i don’t want to discuss them in the same argument. addiction is a problem to overcome, being gay is a given of some people’s lives. what they need to do is to live freely and joyfully and morally as gay people (with or without partners), not to repent of it or to seek a cure. i know you agree with this, i’m just trying to close a loophole in your last post.

mynsterpreost (=David Rowett)
Guest
mynsterpreost (=David Rowett)

Ford typoed:
Well, they might not say it themselves, at least pubically

which has cheered my Saturday!

Cheryl Clough
Guest

Beautiful Erika “Anyone who… has battled with the depth of the human condition, has found strength in God and has… a more important and interesting voice to be heard than someone who never puts a foot wrong and lacks any empathy….” This discussion has amused me no end this weekend. I keep thinking of that email about which leader would you back? The teetotaler who never committed adultery, or the regular drinker who had the odd indiscretion? If you chose the former you chose Hitler; if you chose the latter you chose Churchill. There are also those biblical passages where… Read more »

Erika Baker
Guest
Erika Baker

“it is still interesting to note that in modern society, the Seven Deadlies are all now either illnesses or virtues”. I’m not sure which excesses would be considered to be virtuous. But to classify what used to be considered a “sin” as an “illness” does not change the severity of its impact on the sufferer and those around him. All our modern psychological insights to is shift the focus of support we can give. Condemning an alcoholic with obvious moral distaste is about as effective as chaining a debtor until he has paid his debts. All we are called to… Read more »

Ford Elms
Guest
Ford Elms

Erika, I’m not sure if you’re still around, but I’ll respond anyway. Currently, ‘lust’ is now ‘sexual addiction’, ‘gluttony’ is an ‘eating disorder’, ‘anvy, anger, and greed’ are at worst morally neutral, and in business circles would be considered beneficial, “virtuous” if you like, as is ‘pride’ which is now ‘self confidence’. Sloth is the only one, and even that can be explained away. I’m, not saying that this changes anything. I am commenting on the fact that our society, like every other one, is a pretty warped place. Sexual addiction is real in some instances, but for others it’s… Read more »

Bara Igoniwari Brown
Guest
Bara Igoniwari Brown

I have Known The Rt Revd. Isaac Orama to be a decent, spirit- filled and bible based clergyman. His father The Ven Jason Orama is a clergyman of respectable value. Bp. Orama cannot make such statement.I pray that all those fighting against the Church of Nigeria is fighting against God.Please Leave our beloved Primate Dr Akinola, Bp. Minns and Bp. Orama Alone. I will advise, that the bible is there for them to read and be saved.

Ford elms
Guest
Ford elms

“I pray that all those fighting against the Church of Nigeria “ No-one is fighting against the Church of Nigeria. The Bible is indeed there for us to read, but it is our faith that saves us. You might try to read more carefully the passages that tell us not to trust in falsehood. Or do you believe the kinds of things your Primate and his supporters spew about gay people? You really think we are no better than animals, a cancer on the Body of Christ, that we could change if only we obeyed? The group of people who… Read more »

Ford Elms
Guest
Ford Elms

Oh, by the way, has anyone seen the promised retraction? It may be too early, but I am waiting with baited breath. I am NOT holding my breath in anticipation, as I suspect I would not resume breathing in the forseeable future.