THINKING ANGLICANS

New Orleans: Tuesday morning

Further developments yesterday:

Episcopal News Service House of Bishops talks make ‘enormous progress,’ go into overtime

…In response to a reporter’s queries about the future course of the church and possible breakaway dioceses reformulating under an overseas or other archbishop, Alvarez said: “We have been addressing precisely that issue as openly as possible, recognizing the divisiveness and controversy around it. We are very clear that we may have some people who are not in agreement with the majority positions taken by both houses of General Convention, but,” he added, “that doesn’t mean we can foresee a significant breakaway or division of the Episcopal Church…”

Living Church Steve Waring Bishops: New Document Will Preserve Status Quo

…The document released Monday morning is no longer a draft being revised. It has been replaced, Bishop Bruno said during the briefing. The new working draft was developed from this document and one submitted by Bishop Bruno and Bishop Charles Jenkins of Louisiana. During the private session, the bishops discussed the two documents simultaneously for an extended period without coming to any consensus.

Finally Presiding Bishop Katharine Jefferts Schori proposed an eight-paragraph summary which she had written. An overwhelming majority of bishops agreed her proposal captured many of the salient points in both of the draft documents under debate.

After receiving approval, Bishop Jefferts Schori briefed members of the joint steering committee of the primates and the Anglican Consultative Council so that they could complete their report to Archbishop of Canterbury Rowan Williams. The members of the steering committee were under a deadline because many are scheduled to depart New Orleans Tuesday morning. The writing committee will present final draft language for approval by bishops in the morning…

Associated Press Rachel Zoll Episcopalians Try to Prevent Split

Reuters Russell McCulley Episcopal bishops see “clear” statement on gays

Daily Telegraph Jonathan Petre Anglican Church could split by end of year

…Conservatives believe, however, that Dr Williams is now openly siding with the liberals and allowing the Communion to fall apart by default, leaving conservatives stranded.

Until now, only parishes have left the American Episcopal Church and affiliated with overseas provinces in Africa, often amid acrimonious and costly disputes over property.

But under the new plans, whole dioceses will for the first time transfer their allegiances, a significant escalation of the conflict which will be seen as highly provocative by American liberals…

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Ford ElmsNPRobert Ian WilliamsCheryl Va. Cloughdrdanfee Recent comment authors
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Cheryl Va. Clough
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Now you know why the conservatives delayed.

May God bless, and the TEC find some way to help, those parishioners and parishes that do not want to be co-opted into the breakaway groups.

When the time is right and the bridges that need to be crossed, crossed, please take the time to contemplate how to help those already trapped behind enemy lines.

ruidh
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ruidh

Once again, extremists on both sides have accused WIlliams of taking the other’s side. We’ve even seen it here where commenters have accused Williams of dancing to Akinola’s tune.

Williams remains an instrument of unity. But he recognized that some may have to walk apart for a time. This walking apart does not arise from the Communion disciplining a wayward province, but rather from a province deciding to separate itself from it’s brothers and sisters.

The Conservatives have been preparing to do just that.

Ford Elms
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Ford Elms

“Unity with God comes through the transformative power of the gospel and not through our personal agendas, said Akinola. To be transformed by the gospel requires total obedience and rejection of sinful actions, he said, whether these be “little lies, blackmailing, gossip” or “committing fornication” and engaging in adultery.”

Right back at ya, there, my Lord!

drdanfee
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drdanfee

I believe the summary of the Anglican realignment campaign as so far published is: Separate, then Supplant. This seems particularly true of the USA so-called Network parishes, and now openly, dioceses. A careful review of the relevant memos, papers leads one to a common-sense notion that this has long been the realignment aim, despite occasional speeches or sermons to the contrary. The question, of course, unanswered is: How far will this play out successfully beyond USA? Can Canada, Scotland, New Zealand, Australia, South Africa, Brasil, and finally CoE also be sifted in order for all conservative believers to finally supplant… Read more »

Robert Ian Williams
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Robert Ian Williams

Yes and the conservatives are riven with divorce and re-marriage, and all contracept ( Lambeth 1920 resolution ignored)and must ordain women
(Lambeth 1948 ignored)

They can’t agree on the charismatic gifts, infant baptism, the meaning of the Holy Communion, or can you lose your salvation…..so homosexuality is one of the the one topic they can agree on.

Cheryl Va. Clough
Guest

Actually drdanfee I think you’ve managed to articulate their core world view paradigm: “…conservative believers to finally supplant and displace all alternative believers?” I saw something the other day where Jensen was talking about this being the new reformation, something I think I’ve seen from other players as well. Your phrase would be consistent with their view that they have the “new” religion that is going to come into ascendancy, over all other forms of Christianity or faith or philosophical stream. They may have a mission to build the alpha world religion that subsumes and replaces all other religious or… Read more »

Ford Elms
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Ford Elms

“Robert Ian Williams” There’s a few points about your comments: First, any of these things are backed by “solid Biblical arguments”, so they say. I find this odd since these arguments seem to me to be of no better “quality” than the “pro-gay” arguments they deride as “fudge”. Second, any attempt to point out the hypocrisy of this does not induce shame or contrition or self examination, but derision since it is taken to be an attempt to justify what they consider the disobedience of the Left, a “tu quoque” argument. Pointing out that it throws the Gospel into disrepute… Read more »

Robert Ian Williams
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Robert Ian Williams

All conservative evangelicals would claim that Scripture on its own is totally clear..perspicuity..yet this unbiblical theory of men is offered as the basis of authority.

Christ established a teaching Church and did not leave a book as the sole authority.

As a Catholic I believe he gauranteed that teaching authority under the Peter who he asked to confirm his brethren with an unfailing faith, and feed the lambs and sheep. The Church authentically interprets the word of God, in its Scriptural or unwritten tradition form.

Ford Elms
Guest
Ford Elms

“All conservative evangelicals would claim that Scripture on its own is totally clear..perspicuity..yet this unbiblical theory of men is offered as the basis of authority.” Exactly! I find it amusing the lengths Evangelicals will go to to justify this “tradition of men”. I posted here once a long list of Biblical contradicitions and the Evangelical response was that they were all minor points! Some were, but some were not. I truly feel that many of the reformers were true rebels, antiauthoritarian, in much the same way that many of the “liberals” in the Church today are, having huge issues with… Read more »

NP
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NP

Robert – do you think if Christ saw the Vatican today, he would recognise it as exactly what he wants his church to be and congratulate the RC church for carrying on the church Peter started?

Don’t see in the gospels Jesus Christ’s palaces, fine clothes and hundreds of millions in investments……nor do I see people being forbidden to marry or Christ teaching me to pray to his mother…..but as you say, you believe the church is free to make up things post-Christ and his apostles.

(the CofE is just as corrupt, I know)

Ford Elms
Guest
Ford Elms

NP,
You’d better trot down to Parliament next month. I have heard that some people have been sneaking gunpowder into the basement. Do you really not understand how funny your “There’s nothing in the Bible telling me to do X” type comments are?

Robert Ian Williams
Guest
Robert Ian Williams

I think Our Blessed Lord would be more annoyed at the current weak leadership in the Catholic Church in England and Wales and poor selection of bishops, by the late Pope.

Our Lord never promised or guaranteed pastoral competency and wisdom.Each of us is responsible to God for our personal actions.

Judgement will begin with the Household of God.

No Pope is above criticism…Catholics have never viewed the Pope as being beyond charitable criticism.

For celibacy read Corinthians seven and for the prayers of the Saints read Revelation five.

NP
Guest
NP

Robert – I agree with you re judgment starting with us …. especially those who dare to teach (as St James says)

Celibacy is NOT the same as forcing priests not to marry…. in fact we are specifically warned against people making that prohibition.

The Lord taught us to pray “Our Father….” That is the only way He taught us to pray. Please consider his prayers and those of St Paul to see the best models for prayer that we have…..all to the Father and for the Father’s glory.

Ford Elms
Guest
Ford Elms

“all to the Father and for the Father’s glory.”

Now what group of heretics was it who only prayed to the Father? The Nestorians, maybe? I can’t remember for sure. See, NP, those who do not know their history are destined to repeat it. You don’t know Church history. Thus you do not know the heresies that were defeated centuries ago, nor the arguments used to refute them. Thus, you fall into the same traps. Don’t bother going on a tirade about the Bible telling us who to pray to. We don’t worship a book.

NP
Guest
NP

sorry Ford….show me any prayer of Moses, David, Elijah, Paul or the Lord which is not only to the Father – please show me!

The Lord and his Apostles did not teach us to wear expensive robes, to have strange rituals, to carry bread around in the air worshipping it, to pray to his mum……….I really respect you but if I have to choose, I will follow the model of prayer and Christianity that I see from the Lord and his Apostles before I follow made up human traditions.

Ford Elms
Guest
Ford Elms

Fine by me, NP. Funny that there were Christians who only prayed to the Father. They were called heretics. Funny too that the Chuirch has always paryed to the Trinity, not just one Person. Funny as well that the Church has been asking the saints for their prayers since the beginning. But, I guess people reading a book 1500 years after it was written know more about what it means than the ones who actually heard it taught from the lips of God Incarnate! I don’t know how you pray, but if you intend to follow the model of Christianity… Read more »