Thinking Anglicans

Canadian developments

Updated Tuesday evening

In Ontario, the civil court has ruled that church buildings must be shared pending the outcome of litigation.

Canadian Press Breakaway Anglicans to share churches with diocese, Ont. judge rules

Hamilton Spectator Anglican churches awarded joint custody

Toronto Globe & Mail Diocese, parishes to share churches

The Anglican Network in Canada issued a press release, which appears on the sydneyanglicans site, Parishioners disappointed by court decision.

Earlier, in Alberta the Diocese of Athabasca passed resolutions supporting Canadian breakaway churches. The Anglican Journal reported that:

The archbishop of Athabasca has issued a letter confirming his diocese’s commitment to the Canadian church and the Anglican Communion after its synod passed motions supporting churches that have left the Anglican Church of Canada and criticizing bishops who have gone to court over property issues…

Updates about Niagara
The Diocese of Niagara has issued this press release (PDF).

The court decision is available here (PDF).

The Anglican Church of Canada also has a press release.

The Anglican Journal has Churches must share buildings with Niagara diocese, court rules.

And there is a later Canadian Press report Breakaway Niagara Anglican churches consider appealing order to share with diocese.

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Lapinbizarre
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Lapinbizarre

“Who or which or why or what” is the archdiocese of Athabasca?

Evidence of the extent to which things are flying out of control, Matt Kennedy, commenting at Stand Firm on the Canadian court decision, says “The parishioners are not being asked to share their buildings with Christians but with false teachers. It is as if the court ordered them to share their building with the Watchtower Society or the Hari Krishnas.”

Charles Nurse
Guest
Charles Nurse

Athabasca is a small Diocese (by numbers) in the northern part of Alberta. I think it is a member of the “Council of the North” which means it is financially assisted by the Anglican Church of Canada.

christopher+
Guest
christopher+

Why, then, has Father Kennedy not renounced his orders in the Episcopal Church or at least sought to be transferred canonically to another diocese/province? Honestly. If he has, I certainly apologize, and I would fully understand his actions, based on what he appears to believe. But it is beyond hypocrisy for him to remain in any church he obviously considers to be in the same camp as one being run by false teachers more closely related to the Hari Krishnas than to orthodox Christianity. And, to be frank, it is getting increasingly tiresome hearing some complain that ongoing efforts to… Read more »

Walsingham
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Walsingham

@Christopher+: I wholeheartedly agree. That is my main criticism of the conservatives who are trying to claim parish property. Unlike previous Anglicans who have left — who basically left as they were, started their own parishes and established their own churches, resulting in such groups as Anglican Province of America and the Anglican Province of Christ the King — they are in trying to claim they can take parish property with them. That displays what amounts to a Congregationalist understanding of the Church, something which is historically wholly incompatible with Anglicanism (being based as it is on the historic episcopate… Read more »

drdanfee
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drdanfee

Hmmm isn’t all this trash talk mention of other world faiths soooooo typical? Fr MK has found a typical manner of modeling Jesus love to Hindu believers, I guess. I might be tempted to surmise that if Father MK is hanging around it is because he has been solemnly told that the realigned shall inherit the earth and that this must include his local parish buildings and assets, by God’s revealed will. Ah for the old Anglican days, when queer folks and women were properly subservient and submissive, just as God wishes them to be in relation to their exclusively… Read more »

Canon G
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Canon G

“Constructive dialogue?” Surely this is new territory for the church in Nigeria.

Malcolm+
Guest

The decision is an interesting read. It deconstructs the schismatic argument, it affirms that the title to the property lies with the diocese (unambiguously in two cases, an balance of evidence in the third). Finally, it awards costs to the plaintiffs.

My limited experience suggests that costs are not usually awarded in such a case, and that when they are, it is usually a slap – here a slap at the respondents.

Doxy
Guest
Doxy

Father Kennedy and his wife have both renounced their orders in TEC and gone to the Anglican Church of Kenya for “refuge.”

Of course, they haven’t left Albany, and have somehow decided that church property there belongs to +Nzimbi. I take it that geography was not their strong suite in school…

And neither was “Christian” charity or humility, apparently. Of course, when you have a direct line to God, I guess you don’t need either…

Jim Pratt
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Jim Pratt

A very moderate decision. Reading it, it sounds like if the diocese had asked the court to give the dissidents the boot, Madam Justice Milanetti might have done just that. But instead the Diocese is being reasonable and taking a course that would lead to either reconciliation or a more amicable parting. Given how the justice stated her take on the merits of their claim, I think the dissidents would be wise to start negotiating a purchase of the property (especially in the case of St. Hilda’s and Good Shepherd, the are several other Anglican churches nearby, and the diocese… Read more »

christopher+
Guest
christopher+

Doxy,

Did Father Kennedy and Mother Kennedy really renounce their orders, or did they just say they were leaving for another diocese/province without asking for a canonical transfer? I ask only because I honestly do not know. Weren’t they in the Diocese of Central New York?

For the record, though: I would not have wished for them to leave by any means. I have simply been baffled by their not renouncing their orders or at least requesting canonical transfers when at least Father Kennedy apparently has such terrible things to say about his fellow Anglicans in North America.

christopher+
Guest
christopher+

Doxy, I just found recent news online indicating that Father Kennedy is another of those parish priests attempting to transfer control of his Episcopal parish’s property and assets to another province, in this case Kenya. I would be willing to bet the Episcopal Bishop of Central New York would have granted Father Kennedy and his wife canonical transfers to another place, if they had asked for them. But that, of course, would have got in the way of their strategy of attempting to take parish property with them. I might have admired Father Kennedy’s integrity in leaving the Episcopal Church… Read more »

Robert Ian Williams
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Robert Ian Williams

Pity the Canadian lady judge was not in Virginia.

Very perceptive judge and she sees clearly the implication of what could happen if the breakaways win. Very telling remark that one of the breakaway clergy had antagonised many of the original congregation.

However she thinks that marriage is a sacrament for Anglicans..not according to the 39 articles.

Walsingham
Guest
Walsingham

@Robert Ian Williams: The Thirty-Nine Articles do not say that marriage is not a sacrament (though the archaic wording is confusing to the modern reader). They say what definitively, incontrovertibly *is* a sacrament — baptism and the Eucharist — just as the Chicago-Lambeth Quadrilateral does. The fact that an Anglican marriage requires a priest bespeaks its sacramental nature; the fact that the priest invokes the Trinity as part of the marriage also implies that nature as well. There are other sacraments implied in the formularies, such as the Quadrilateral: since the historic episcopate is therein defined as essential to our… Read more »

Robert Ian Williams
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Robert Ian Williams

Dear Walsingham,

Have you read Article 25 ? Corrupt following of the Apostles…not to be counted as sacraments of the Gospel

Canon A5 says Cof E doctrine based IN PART ON articles.

Indeed unction missing from aNGLICANISM FOR 350 YEARS.

AS FOR lAMBETH QUADRILATERAL NOTE THE USE OF THE WORD HISTORIC INSTEAD OF apostolic. That was purposefully chosen so as not to antagonise the evangelicals.

Walsingham
Guest
Walsingham

@Robert Ian Williams: Er, yes, I *have* read the Articles. 😉 That’s why I said “the archaic wording is confusing to the modern reader”, that is, the meaning of the words used has changed in subtle, but important ways. In particular the word “corrupt” did not have quite the pejorative meaning then that it does now. In this case it simply means that those other sacraments are creations of the Church later on, not that they aren’t sacraments at all. Read the wording carefully: It says “not sacraments *of the Gospel*”, not “not sacraments”. What the text of Article XXV… Read more »

Ford Elms
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Ford Elms

“In this case it simply means that those other sacraments are creations of the Church later on, not that they aren’t sacraments at all.” Exactly. There is a huge credibility gap for conservative Evangelicals. On the one hand they claim to be “orthodox” and practice “traditional Christianity”, yet they specifically reject many of the beliefs and practices of traditional Christianity, and espouse others that certainly cannot be called “orthodox”. It is quite amusing, actually, how people can condemn others for “radical innovations” when their own beliefs were, in their day, far more radical and innovative than anything being proposed today.… Read more »

Walsingham
Guest
Walsingham

@Ford Elms: I would add that reading the Tracts wouldn’t hurt, particularly Tract XC. They explain quite well the catholic underpinnings of Anglicanism, which never disappeared, not even when the evangelical wing of Anglicanism was at its zenith under Edward VI (though our Roman friends will no doubt see that a bit differently). I’ll restate what I’ve mentioned before: The primary weakness in the arguments of the conservatives who want to take parishes with them is simply that they have a Congregationalist view of the structure of the Church, which is incompatible with Anglicanism, based as it is on the… Read more »

Robert Ian Williams
Guest
Robert Ian Williams

Dear Walsingham, The proof of the pudding is in the eating. Show me an official declartaion of tHae Church of England that calls marriage a sacrament. Such a designation is Missing from: The BCP Common Worship Canon Law Since 2000 it has been a union of convenience which can be dissolved by divorce, with the words, ” Until death us deaprt2 preserved for cultural reasons. As for historic.it wa s a compromise ..no Evangelical would have designated the episcopate as an Apostolic order, as they do not believe the bishops are the successors of the Apostles. Interstingluy neither Cranmer,Hooker, Laud… Read more »

Göran Koch-Swahne
Guest

“Until death us depart”

In the Church of Sweden we have never had those words before 1986, indeed it was Chapters who adjucated on marriaged (when “hindrances”, such as Emperor Louis the Pious’ 7 forbidden Degrees of 892, for instance) and divorce until the Absolutist State took over in 1687 (and damaged the standing of women and children).

We always have said: “for Need and Lust”, that is “for richer, for poorer”.

Robert Ian Williams
Guest
Robert Ian Williams

Ford., tract 90! John Henry Newman later renounced his writing of it, when he became a Catholic.

By the way ,where did Unction disappear to for three hundred plus years?

Walsingham
Guest
Walsingham

@Robert Ian Williams: The possibility of divorce doesn’t say anything about the sacramental nature of a marriage. The Orthodox permit re-marriage as well, but I don’t think you’ll find an Orthodox Christian who doesn’t think marriage is sacramental in nature. Sacraments can be renounced and revoked. Something also doesn’t need to be “called a sacrament” to actually be one. Like I said above, everything the Church does is in some sense sacramental. The only thing the Articles and Quadrilateral do is define what a church *must* do to be considered Christian — baptism and the Eucharist. Other than that, there… Read more »

Robert Ian Williams
Guest
Robert Ian Williams

Please address the question where ibn it official formularies does the Church of England describes marriage as a sacrament.

As a Catholic I fully respect the teaching of my Church that the Church of England is a Church of the refornmation, having lost the apostolic succession.

Where was unction in your “Catholic” Church of England for three centuries?

choirboyfromhell
Guest
choirboyfromhell

Ouuu, my, my. Patten, patten, who’s got the patten?

Malcolm+
Guest

RIW – those other five “commonly called sacraments.” That wold seem to call them sacraments – while making a distinction that even Mr. Ratzinger would make between the dominical sacraments and the rest.

Walsingham
Guest
Walsingham

@Robert Ian Williams: I already pointed out where it says so (including in the Thirty-Nine Articles), and Malcolm+ reiterated it. I also pointed to the liturgy (invocation of the Holy Spirit) and requirements of the rites, which show their sacramental nature. That is all the proof you need. Article XXV says: “Those five commonly called Sacraments, that is to say, Confirmation, Penance, Orders, Matrimony, and Extreme Unction, are not to be counted for Sacraments of the Gospel, being such as have grown partly of the corrupt following of the Apostles, partly are states of life allowed in the Scriptures, but… Read more »

Robert Ian Williams
Guest
Robert Ian Williams

Walsingham…you still don’t explain why unction was missing from Anglicanism for 300 years…as for ARCIC , it isn’t worth the paper it’s written on…deliberately ambiguous , and that’s why its going nowhere.

Show me the rite for unction of the sick in 1662 or PECUSA-BCP 1789.Er… I don’t think so.

If you can’t….. don’t bother replying

Walsingham
Guest
Walsingham

@Robert Ian Williams: Show where the Church of England has ever denied that unction is a sacrament. You have made the claim, so you have to prove it. Malcolm+ and I have done all that is necessary to explain Anglican teachings on the sacraments. The Articles just don’t say what you claim they do, as anyone who examines the text can see. I even quoted the relevant bits verbatim. ARCIC just so happens to be the official statement of two churches on their respective positions. You can’t deny basic facts and formal statements of churches when they are inconvenient to… Read more »

Ford Elms
Guest
Ford Elms

“where did Unction disappear to for three hundred plus years?” Into the morass into which much was cast after the depredations of Henry, the Calvinizing exile of the English reformers under Mary, and the repression of Cromwell. Just because we were led astray is no reason not to return. The English reformation, like the reformation everywhere else, was a necessary evil with more evil than necessary. That the English Church was more conservative than most in her reforming efforts in no way means that She didn’t make mistakes. Abandoning sacraments like Unction, loss of an epiclesis in the Mass, receptionism,… Read more »

Robert Ian Williams
Guest
Robert Ian Williams

Walsingham and Malcom X ARCIC is theologians playing with words and the Church of England bishops are frightened to death about putting recent statements to a vote. I believe a church that has lost a sacrament like unction instituted by Our Lord is a very dubious one, to entrust ones soul to its care. Think of the millions of Englishmen and women, who have been robbed of its spiritual grace and consolation, because it was sidelined as a corruption. As one Anglican Reformer commented , ” take away you stinking oily hands.” As for marriage the ball is in your… Read more »

Walsingham
Guest
Walsingham

@Robert Ian Williams: Show me a current binding Anglican formulary. Hint: There isn’t one. (The Articles themselves are “of historical interest” and non-binding.) So how am I supposed to show a formulary “proving” marriage is a sacrament, when no general formulary exists? You’re just moving the goalposts. (But I bet you knew that already, which is why you’re probably just trolling.) Meanwhile ARCIC’s statement on matrimony (did you bother to read it? apparently not) doesn’t mince words, and is endorsed by the ACC, which is as official a statement as there is on the subject. Your continuing attempt to cast… Read more »

Robert Ian Williams
Guest
Robert Ian Williams

Walsingham..go to the Canadian breakaway parishes and ask whether thy see marriage as a sacrament or not. Doctor Packer of the diocese of Canada ( Southern Cone )would not agree, and he is described as one of the most brillaint theologians within Anglicanism. The 39 articles represent the doctrinal basis of the Church of England ( see Canon A5) and are not just historical documents. They are also highly valued by the Canadiab break aways. They stil require assent, which in my dictionary means a agreement. The ACC has no standing in revisisng the formularies of the Church of England…ARCIC… Read more »

Walsingham
Guest
Walsingham

Since when are Church of England canons binding on all Anglicans? (They sure aren’t on me as an Episcopalian.) Since when do individual Anglican historical figures speak for the entirety of Anglicans, any more than Hans Küng or Thomas Aquinas speak for all Roman Catholics? Since when is it mandatory for a Catholic to pray to saints? Since when do I subscribe to your mechanical definition of sacraments? Since when do I care what Roman Catholic thinks continuity is? (I’d be rather more open to what the Orthodox have to say about it.) Since when does “Walsingham” refer only to… Read more »

Robert Ian Williams
Guest
Robert Ian Williams

What does trolling mean?

The only other Walsingham I know is the head of the Elizabethan secret service, who co-ordinated the hunting down of Catholic priests.

Its so sad how little liberals, Anglo-catholic traditionalists and evangelicals wihin TEC know of the origin of the Church they derive from.

Please forgive the typos in the last entry,and God Bless you in your life pilgrimage. You are obviously searching and a deep thinking person.

Romans chapter 8,v28

Walsingham
Guest
Walsingham

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_%28Internet%29 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plonk For the time being I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt. “Its so sad how little liberals, Anglo-catholic traditionalists and evangelicals wihin TEC know of the origin of the Church they derive from.” It is sad how a non-Anglican thinks he can tell Anglicans what they believe or how their church works. I don’t even fit within any of the categories you just listed (which is probably why you *still* don’t understand the basis of my argument). Considering I have (and have read) shelves full of English and church history books, if there’s anyone who’s read up… Read more »

Robert Ian Williams
Guest
Robert Ian Williams

Dear Walsingham,

I have enjoyed our exchange. I was brought up an Anglican and was formed by the Evangelical tradition. On discovery that the early Church was Catholic, and discovering that both justification by faith alone and Scripture alone were unorthodox I converted to Catholicism. I was never taken in by the claims of Anglo-Catholicism, and to me the Petrine claims are fundamental.

My prayer is that you go back more to the Bible and prayer, than secondary sources. May God lead you to His truth.

Robert

Walsingham
Guest
Walsingham

Dear Robert, The early Church *was* Catholic. The worldwide Church today still *is* Catholic. The mistake is when one or the other part of the Church tries to claim it’s got all the cards, or that its version of history is the only right one. That way lies madness. And any part of the Church that acts against the words in John 17 is not working in the fullness of God’s will. Every part of the Church has to say its mea culpas before proceeding. The claims of the Anglo-Catholics are true in the sense that they did in fact… Read more »