Thinking Anglicans

press reports on Pittsburgh secession

Updated Monday morning

Pittsburgh Post-Gazette Episcopal diocese chooses to secede by Ann Rodgers

Pittsburgh Tribune-Review Episcopal diocese votes to split by Brian Bowling

New York Times Pittsburgh Episcopal Diocese Votes for Split by Sean D Hamill

Associated Press Diocese to Break From Episcopal Church and there was this earlier report, prior to the vote from Rachel Zoll Episcopal dioceses mulling split over Bible, gays.

Agence France-Presse US diocese splits from Episcopal Church amid gay crisis

The glossy brochure mentioned in some reports can be seen as a PDF file here.

Monday morning update

A further report in the New York Times by Sean D Hamill After Theological Split, a Clash Over Church Assets

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Weiwen
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It’s a darkly humorous coincidence that the American financial system and the Anglican Communion are both falling apart at the same time.

BillyD
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BillyD

It’s very weird that they still call themselves (according to the brochure) the Episcopal Diocese of Pittsburgh, while rejecting the Episcopal Church.

penwatch
Guest
penwatch

The more I look at this the more I realise that the ‘majority’ choosing to leave isn’t very convincing. Bishop Duncan has lost a good proportion of his troops in this realignment.

There seems to be a good deal of hubris on his part in this whole exercise. In the near future it will begin to look like a pyrrhic victory.

BobinSwPA
Guest
BobinSwPA

Yesterday 4 new parishes were admitted to the diocese. They asked to be a member of the Episcopal diocese of Pittsburgh and TEC only to vote (about an hour later) to leave it. That gave them 8 more lay votes and possibly 4 more clergy votes. The one parish was the break away group from Somerset (St. Francis in the Fields).
I guess so much for catholicity. Of course Henry will return to England as the assistant bishop for Oxford. He’ll be sure to join up with Rochester, Lewes and Winchester.

Cheryl Va.
Guest

Nice to have the brochure ready ahead of the meeting (It takes time to design and publish that level of glossiness). The decision had been made, all that was in question was who and how many were going with them.

Schori and her team did the right thing when they drew the line. This camp’s path had already been determined and it was merely a case of seeing how much collateral damage they could do before they got out.

BobinSwPA
Guest
BobinSwPA

Mary Hays said the diocese will become a home for women clergy from all over the world. Could anyone tell me how women clergy can call themselves Orthodox in light of what the bible and tradition say concerning women in the priesthood? Why is it right for the orthodox to be able to pick and choose which parts of the bible they wish to follow and the rest of us are damned? As for David Wilson, as well as other mumbled snide comments under their breath every time a liberal got up to speak (I sat right in the middle… Read more »

BobinSwPA
Guest
BobinSwPA

Cheryl, all I wonder how bishops like Peter Lee feel about their vote now? They didn’t want to oust Duncan until after the vote. This document certainly should show that this was all planned (and my understanding is that other documents were found as part of the Calvary lawsuit). I have a copy of the brochure. Our rector went over it today and talked about what some will be saying (we are not realigning and have been opposed to Duncan since 2003). This was prepared and sent to the printer well in advance. Your right in your assessment. They only… Read more »

Robert Ian Williams
Guest
Robert Ian Williams

Out of interest could TEC sue Southern Cone , as the latter are aiding those leaving the Episcopal Church and helping with the taking of their assets?

Imagine what would happen if Canada also sured…

Father Ron Smith
Guest
Father Ron Smith

Well, the New Ebionites have now left the ranks of TEC. Will they follow the same path as their biblical predecessors? It seems that on this issue – of theological and ritual purity – they have direct connection to the first Ebionites, who deserted the early Christian Church because of Paul’s liberal attitudes towards the need for the rite of circumcision.

Both sets of ‘believers’ thought that their view of what was required to fulfil the needs of the Gospel was true. Apparently, the first lot ended up in the Islamic camp. Will these do the same?

Ford Elms
Guest
Ford Elms

“It’s a darkly humorous coincidence that the American financial system and the Anglican Communion are both falling apart at the same time.” Weiwen, you owe me a new keyboard. “Could anyone tell me how women clergy can call themselves Orthodox in light of what the bible and tradition say concerning women in the priesthood?” But Bob, “orthodox” means “thinks gay people are icky.” Essentials raised marriage and sexuality to the level of the Trinity years ago, see the Montreal Declaration. The Jerusalem Declaration showed they no longer consider Christology at all important in the definition of the term. And we… Read more »

Cheryl Va.
Guest

Bobin

Thank you for confirming timelines that could only be construed by the materials presented. It is no longer a supposition, witnesses confirm chronological unfoldings.

Thank you.

Ford Elms
Guest
Ford Elms

“Apparently, the first lot ended up in the Islamic camp.”

Well, their attitudes towards Scripture are certainly more in line with Islamic thought.

JPM
Guest
JPM

>>>The Jerusalem Declaration showed they no longer consider Christology at all important in the definition of the term.

Ford, this doesn’t surprise me at all, given that homosexuality is now the sole issue of any importance, but could you please explain the so-called “orthodox” position on Christology?

Ford Elms
Guest
Ford Elms

The Jerusalem Statement affirms “the Four Ecumenical Councils”. There were seven, of course. Now, I know the Anglican position on councils, they can err. All the same, the Seven gave us our traditional Christology by which we have always defined orthodoxy. Assuming the ones they DON’T affirm are the last three, are they Monophysites, Monothelites, or Nestorians? What is more interesting is that most of the conservatives who have even addressed this here seem to think it no big deal, meaning, I gues, that for them Christology isn’t all that important in defining “orthodox Christianity”. If they do not understand,… Read more »

drdanfee
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drdanfee

I agree, these new Anglicans will mainly compete with the USA evangelical mega-churches, not with big tent traditional Anglicanism. They neglect Christology because the incarnation as Anglicans have variously understood it to date, pulls us too far for their comforts, closer to the Imago Dei and away from Calivinistic doctrines of utter depravity in human nature. Watching Duncan and company, however, one pauses to reconsider doctrines of depravity and human nature, and struggles to remember the Anglican appreciations of God at work in the fully human Jesus of Nazareth to teach, pray, heal, and minister to us among us. What… Read more »

Ford Elms
Guest
Ford Elms

“one pauses to reconsider doctrines of depravity and human nature” Not here, it doesn’t. But then I’ve never accepted the narrow Protestant obsesssion with justification. We are fallen creatures, fallible. Christians understood this for 1500 years till the traditional understanding proved too vague for a bunch of people who used the manifest need for reform as an excuse to push their radical innovations forward as somehow God given. So, now, fallen isn’t enough, totally depraved becomes the order of the day, redemption becomes nothing more than escaping punishment, and God’s profligate love gives way to corrupt ignoring of crime, grudgingly… Read more »

JCF
Guest
JCF

If dioceses like Pittsburgh had sought to secede, with their assets, IMMEDIATELY after the passage of the Denis canon 30 years ago, they might have stood a chance.

But you can’t accept the principle of “It doesn’t belong to us, it belongs to the Episcopal Church, in perpetuity” for that long, and then think that courts are going to buy into the (novel) contention that “We always considered the property ours, personally.”

Lord have mercy!

BobinSwPA
Guest
BobinSwPA

I liked your response Ford 🙂 JCF Pennsylvania law favors the heirarchical church. That coupled with the Calvary Lawsuit should make getting the properties back or financial compensation a little easier. I hope !!!

Cheryl Va.
Guest

Ford An excellent posting but the comment about God’s love being “grudgingly given to those who debase themselves appropriately and conform to society” is off the mark for these people. They are not after confirmation to society, but acquiesance to their theology, irregardless of its impact on the broader society. In fact, they see a society that moves to protect the weak and vulnerable and to give legal rights to the outcaste and shunned as “evil”. One of their major claims is that the liberals are in error in trying to adopt this compassionate humanism. Their self-righteousness has made them… Read more »

Ford Elms
Guest
Ford Elms

“They are not after confirmation to society, but acquiesance to their theology, irregardless of its impact on the broader society.” Cheryl, most of us don’t really see that there are several societies around us. There is the world of the conservatives, one of wealth, privelege, and power, where those without the above are manipulated by fear to support the status quo. It often works. “Liberals” see this as the power, and “fight the power” as an act of Christian counterculture. Conservatives do not see it as “society” but as the way the world is supposed to be. They see “the… Read more »

Robert Ian Williams
Guest
Robert Ian Williams

A good friend in Pittsburgh informs me: The diocese has attracted a number of English evangelicals. There were lots of non resident clergy present and voting (for Duncan) as well. Steven Noll flew back from Uganda (he heads Uganda Christian University), Peter Moore now lives in South Carolina (former head of Trinity Episcopal School for Ministry – the source of much of our trouble), Doug McGlynn and Arnie Klukas came from Wisconsin where they are on the staff of Nashotah House Seminary, and the list could go on and on. Ask yourself why a diocese with 74 parishes had 219… Read more »

Tobias Haller
Guest

In the Diocese of NY clergy who are canonically resident lose their vote if they are not also actively ministering within the diocese; the requirements for which are minimal (one need not have a cure in the diocese, but at least function, IIRC, three times a year as an officiant at a public liturgy).

Father Ron Smith
Guest
Father Ron Smith

Dear Robert Ian Williams, I’m still mightily intrigued with your obvious passion about the ‘goings-on’ in the world of the Anglican Communion. As a newly-conscripted RC, I would have thought you would have found many more ‘justice’ issues to ramble on about in your new world of pre-Vatican II romanticism. Is it that you are still hankering after the intrigues of your former Church, and have not yet ceased from the delicious thrills of debating its so-obvious flaws? Or do you really think that the rest of us – who have remained Anglican, despite our problems with its current leadership… Read more »

Joe
Guest
Joe

Bobin: “…should make getting the properties back or financial compensation a little easier.”

Don’t you find it a bit telling, Bobin, that you’re more concerned about ‘financial compensation’ than you are about the fact that there’s an irreconcilable rift in the communion of the church?

Ford Elms
Guest
Ford Elms

“there’s an irreconcilable rift in the communion of the church” Joe, I think you’ll find that we are all concerned that there is an irreconcilable rift in the Communion. I think you’ll also find that it is the conservative schismatics who are obsessed with financial compensation, to the extent of trying to steal from the Almighty what their spiritual ancestors gave Him. I know conservative revisionism sees all this as oppression, but those of us who have no yearning for an Imperial altar upon which we can refuse to burn incense and thereby win the crown of martyrdom don’t see… Read more »