Thinking Anglicans

more Canadian news

Updated Thursday morning

Latest reports from the continuing court case in British Columbia:
Bishop knew of several dioceses blessing same sex unions before the Diocese of New Westminster did
and
Day 5 – Trial of ANiC Parishes v Diocese of New Westminster

And from the New Westminster diocesan synod:
No more parishes may bless same sex couples for forseeable future

From the Diocese of Toronto:
Bishop asks synod for advice on pastoral response

Anglican Journal

Diocese of Huron moves toward same-sex blessings but not nuptial

CoGS won’t ask for change to marriage canon in 2010

Updates Thursday

From New Westminster:
Bishop testifies he came to being in favour of a same sex blessing slowly

Diocese’s witnesses say they continue to be welcome in the Anglican Communion

and

Day 6 – ANiC Parishes v Diocese of New Westminster – June 2 09

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Ford ElmsErika BAkerRobert Ian WilliamsFather Ron SmithJim Pratt Recent comment authors
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drdanfee
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drdanfee

Well at least Canada is talking and studying, however painstakingly and however slowly. And sending letters back and forth to/from twins in Africa, now there is a local dialogue process for you. Meanwhile of course life, love, parenting, work, witness, worship, service go on. Tikkun olam. Canadian gay folks are in a curious position for the time being. They are asked to participate more equally in the general life of local citizen communities without hindrances; and they are technically invited to also participate honestly in the general life of at least some local Candian parishes. However, their invitation to belong… Read more »

Father Ron Smith
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Father Ron Smith

“4. The Plaintiffs have left the Diocese and the Anglican Church of Canada in order to have episcopal oversight from bishops outside of the Anglican Church of Canada. Eventually, they hope to establish an entirely new church, which they hope will become a new Province of the worldwide Anglican Communion. Whether or not that plan will succeed will not be known for many years.” – A.N.i.C. Case for the Plaintiff – Not being a member of the Legal fraternity, I am wondering what claim the dissidents (A.N.i.C.) could possibly entertain for alienating the property of the Anglican Church of Canada… Read more »

JCF
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JCF

“Like a mighty TORTOISE moves the Church of God…” (w/ apologies to tortoises!)

I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again: when it comes to an enlightened nation like Canada, “rendering unto Caesar” represents the more GODLY option, than rendering unto the Church!

Lord have mercy…

Jim Pratt
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Jim Pratt

Ron, The ANiC crowd are claiming that they are the legitimate Anglican body in Canada, by virtue of the ACoC having allegedly strayed from the Solemn Declaration of the first General Synod in 1893. Rather a stretch, since the ACoC is still in communion with Canterbury, and ANiC is not. Drdanfee: I have been in the Canadian church for 7 years now (a transplant from the diocese of Massachusetts), and in that time have come to value the openness of discussion and deliberateness of action. In TEC, and in Massachusetts in particular, there was a lot of pushing the envelope,… Read more »

Father Ron Smith
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Father Ron Smith

“CoGS commended the Galilee Report to the Church for study but noted that more work is required to clarify distinctions between blessing and a nuptial blessing, as well as among marriage, the blessing of a civil marriage and the blessing of a union. CoGS also asked for more information on the “theological significance of blessing the civil marriage of a same-sex couple.” – Anglican Journal – Herein, I believe is the crux of the whole matter of the Church’s recognition of same-sex unions. Early on in the Communion’s discussion on this subject, I personally was inclined to believe that the… Read more »

Ford Elms
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Ford Elms

“However, not all male-female marriages are capable of producing children, so that this caveat against a ‘Nuptial Blessing’ no longer can be considered credible for the state of marriage.” I’m not sure I agree with this. I think there is something unique in a procreative realtionship, and the potential for it, realized or not whether for personal or biological reasons, that makes it a sharing or a representing in some sense of the Creative power that belongs to God alone. So I DO believe a same sex relationship is different in that sense. But why do we insist on seeing… Read more »

Erika Baker
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Erika Baker

“I think there is something unique in a procreative relationship, and the potential for it, realized or not whether for personal or biological reasons,”

Ford, please explain how there can be a potential for a procreative relationship if one or both of a couple are by definition biologically infertile.

This sounds to me like one of those idealistic statements without any basis in science.

Father Ron Smith
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Father Ron Smith

“Why should recognizing the uniqueness of a heterosexual couple’s ability to procreate devalue my relationship? I do not feel devalued that God called my rector to priesthood and not me. Why should I feel devalued because He called my neighbours to a procreative relationship and me to one where that is impossible?” – Ford Elms – Ford, in no way am I suggesting that a committed heterosexual relationship (whether marriage or not) is ‘superior’ to that of a committed same-sex couple. It might help you to understand where I’m coming from when I tell you I believe that a marriage… Read more »

Robert Ian Williams
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Robert Ian Williams

There is much reflection on the Declaration of 1893, setting out the doctrinal position of the Church of England in Canada.

However where were these ANIC churches when the denomination allowed divorce and re-marriage and female ordination?

They accepted them both .. indeed they have female priests and re-married divorcees.

That seems to be the Achilles heel of their argument.

Ford Elms
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Ford Elms

“This sounds to me like one of those idealistic statements without any basis in science” Erika, and Fr. Ron, I really don’t understand marriage as sacrament. It doesn’t seem to fit with the others. I doesn’t make sense to marry people who can’t reproduce if we see reproduction as central to the sacrament, but we do marry them. Which pretty much puts paid to the conservative argument IMNSHO. I know, Sarah got pregnant in her 90s. Well, God can make descendants for Abraham out of stones too. If we marry the elderly because there is STILL the chance of reproduction… Read more »

Erika Baker
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Erika Baker

Ford OK, so let’s continue to call 90 year old heterosexuals potentially procreative, whereas 25 year old gays are not and their relationships are therefore somehow different before God. That still leaves me with the problem WHAT I shall call my relationship. It’s not a partnership – I have those in business. It’s more than a soul-friendship, it’s more than romantic love, it’s more than sexual love. It’s more than a long term business contract to stay living together in the same house. It assumes, in the daily reality of my life, the same responsibilities a heterosexual marriage with children… Read more »

Ford Elms
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Ford Elms

“Tell me what I can call it, so that it encompasses 100% precisely the same meaning that the word “Christian marrige” does” We don’t have a word for it yet, because we haven’t needed one up till now. And why does it have to encompass “100% precisely” the meaning of heterosexual marriage? I am not in a heterosexual relationship. For one thing, the lower social acceptance of gay relationships means we have pressures on us that heteros don’t have. I am proud of the way that we have weathered those pressures, so I’m not going to pretend they don’t exist,… Read more »

Erika Baker
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Erika Baker

Ford that something has no attraction to you is not a valid reason in itself to reject the possibility for everyone else. There are many of us who do have children, although you personally do not. Gay couples use artificial insemination, surrogacy, adoption, or get together after they’ve had children in heterosexual relationships. Just because you and your partner are determined never to have children together does not mean that all gay couples are in the same bracket. It is estimated that between 8 and 10 million children in the US alone are being raised by same sex parents –… Read more »

Ford Elms
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Ford Elms

“Your reasons for stopping me are as personal and as biased as those of anti-gay campaigners.” I don’t have any reasons for stopping you, because I am not trying to stop you. I thought I’d been quite clear on that. “please don’t impose your views on me or those like me who are clearly loudly asking for the right to be married.” I’m not imposing my views on you. I am sincerely happy that you are happy in your relationship. Where did I give you the impression that I am somehow trying to stop gay people getting married, or imposing… Read more »

Erika BAker
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Erika BAker

Ford In that case, I have misunderstood you and I apologise. I thought your thoughts on gay marriage were more than personal views that allowed other people to feel differently, but that if, say, there was a vote on allowing gay marriage tomorrow, your feelings against it would be so strong that you would vote against it. I’m sorry I got that so wrong. You know, sometimes I think I’m not really arguing from a gay point of view at all, in fact, I often don’t understand it. I have grown up always knowing I was bisexual and my life… Read more »

Ford Elms
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Ford Elms

“By the time my life changed I was old enough to have formed a very different security and sense of self than I sometimes sense among those who have been on the margins all their lives.” Erika, no offence taken. We both have things that set us off, look at how I get when someone uses an Evangelical catch phrase! Thing is, I am something like you in that I consider myself peripheral to “gay culture”. I got heavily involved in the folk arts and cultural preservation here quite early in my life. I keep saying that by the time… Read more »