Thinking Anglicans

reactions to Rowan on Saturday

Here are a few more items of this kind.

Malcolm at Simple Massing Priest has written If you meet the Anglican Communion on the road . . .

But I am becoming ever more convinced that Dr. Williams’s sincere attempts to save the Anglican Communion will, if allowed to come to fruition, ultimately destroy it.

There are a number of problems with the document. I’ll try to hit the main ones point by point…

Lionel Deimel has written Reflecting on the Archbishop’s Reflection.

…Episcopalians need to take a very close look at CCAF to understand better their problematic relationship to the Anglican Communion and their possibly even more problematic Anglican future. They need to recognize the ways in which the thinking of the Archbishop of Canterbury and other Anglican leaders is dysfunctional or mistaken…

Jonathan Hagger aka MadPriest has responded to what Andrew Brown wrote with Politeness and the Death of the Church of England.

The Grand Tufti’s response to the votes taken at TEC’s general convention understandably resulted in many of my American friends saying “Well, stuff them all. We’ll go it alone.” As my main fear in this ongoing battle is that the US church will adopt an isolationist policy and leave the rest of the world’s progressives high and dry, I called them to task on this. Their reply was to ask the question, “What are English progressives doing to stop the imposition of a covenant that, if accepted by the Church of England, would lead to its complete theological stagnation for centuries to come?”

At this point I was just assuming what Andrew Brown assumes – that it would never get passed Synod. But I thought I better check before making this point on my blog…

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Perry Butler
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Perry Butler

Thank you for these three pieces, Simon. All are well worth reading.+Tom Dunelm et hoc genus omne now seem to be wanting the C of E to sign up to this Covenant speedily. But surely we cant do this just on the strength of a General Synod debate/vote? Or have i got it hopelessly wrong?Surely for something so important, altering our relationship with the Anglican Communion with implications for our own polity, it ought to be sent down to the diocesan synods and even the deaneries. Or is the whole Church now at the mercy of that “Great Leviathan” as… Read more »

Hugh of Lincoln
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Hugh of Lincoln

The problem with the ‘Two Tracks’ model is that the Communion resembles a bowl of multicoloured soggy spaghetti. Try separating out the strands into two neat piles, each one with a different set of colours. Then there is the issue with trying to force through the Covenant before it’s even finished being drafted, let alone agreed by the Communion. In a way, the haste to get it done quicker weakens it further. The Covenant in its current form is quite clear that the decision whether or not to sign is made by each constituent Church. Then there are processes to… Read more »

drdanfee
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drdanfee

Oh my goodness gracious, if ACI is drafting Wright’s essays; we should immediately let Lionel Diemel take over writing ALL of Rowan Williams from this time onwards. …Just sign, your Grace, no need to bother your pretty academic catholic head about what is best for everbody, provided they viciously hate queer folks inside the church and don’t give a farthing outside the church? … Fav quotes? 1. “…After arguing, in paragraph 5, that Anglicans should not be “reinforcing prejudice against LGBT people,” however, he illustrates what such prejudice looks like in his use of language in paragraphs 8 and 9.… Read more »

Pluralist
Guest

Jonathan Hagger is one of those who has always understood what the Covenant means, and this whilst others have said they should try and make it more like the Anglicanism that they represent. Well people are realised with some shock the ‘clarity’ this time about Rowan Williams and his view that faithful relationship gay people cannot represent the faith in any ministry, and that it is for the centre to decide what issues should be decided at the centre and what in the Churches themselves. These organisations and these pressure groups should perhaps at last wake up and simply oppose… Read more »

Neil
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Neil

Rather than posting objections quickly in the blogosphere, it is time for an organised opposition to the Covenant to be convened, and the old fashioned letter (to ABC and Bishops etc.) resurrected. And preferably by a new leadership – not simply a ’cause’ fought by an existing group like Changing Attitude or Inclusive Church.

Affirming Catholicism and FCP would be no good either – a lot of them are career General Synod people and people like Jonathan Clark (as an example, pace Pluralist, of one who has never understood the implications) voted for the Covenant.

Martin Reynolds
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Martin Reynolds

I would ask that people go back and read the Ridley draft again – I had quite a shock.

Cheryl Va.
Guest

Deimel touched on one of the modern myths of Christianity. Namely that it’s views on marriage and monogamy have been consistent for 2000 years. In fact, they are different to even within Jesus’ own times. For example in Mathew 22:25 when the scribes tried to catch Jesus out with the question about brother who died and left his wife to another brother. Jesus reply makes no rebuke of this arrangement, and he merely notes that earthly relationships do not necessarily carry forward into heaven (souls become their own and not the chattel of another). “When the dead rise, they will… Read more »

Father Ron Smith
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Father Ron Smith

“The name of the Anglican Consultative Council is surely suggestive: it is a body for consultation, not for authoritative legislation. It is at least notable for including laypeople and ordinary clergy; outside of the United States, Anglican churches are much too dominated by bishops, at least from the American democratic perspective.” – Lionel Deimel – What a brilliant response to the ABC’s reflection on GC 2009’s definitive statements! Lionel Deimel responds specifically to all of the controversial point made by Archbishop Rowan; each one, to my mind, giving a cogent and compelling reason for discounting the good Archbishop’s contentions. Perhaps… Read more »

Lorenzo
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Lorenzo

I would like to take issue with the Abp’s statement that no Anglican has any business questioning the dignity of LGBT people or ‘their place within the Body of Christ.’ What exactly is our place in the Body of Christ, the church? It seems to me that this is precisely what the is questioned. If indeed our partnerships cannot receive a blessing that would carry the authority of the Church Catholic, and –I carefully note his use of the conditional mood—if this is the case, a person living in such a union is in the same case as a heterosexual… Read more »

Lorenzo
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Lorenzo

I meant ‘excommunicates and public sinners’, sorry.

Charlotte
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Charlotte

I remember the progressive Roman Catholics who were my parents’ friends when I was growing up. Thoughtful, well-read liberal Democrats in the manner of Eugene McCarthy, with a deep admiration for Dorothy Day, they greeted Vatican II with enthusiasm and joy, and hung on, with increasing grimness, thereafter. In the larger cities of the Northeast, there was always a non-territorial parish set aside for them, with a priest sympathetic to their views (and usually in trouble with his bishop), where they could wait in hope that someday, perhaps, the Church would reconsider its ban on women priests. Meanwhile, everywhere else… Read more »

Dallas Bob
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Dallas Bob

Dr. Deimel’s analysis is absolutely brilliant and all should read and digest it. I too have been an Episcopalian for a long time, and the following words from Dr. Deimel sum up beautifully what we have always been taught about the Anglican Communion: “He (The Archbishop of Canterbury) assumes that the Anglican Communion is and should be hierarchical and tightly bound together. He portrays this as the “self-understanding of our Communion,” particularly in the last half-century. I was taught, however, that Anglican provinces are autonomous, that the Lambeth Conference is just for discussion and without legislative function, and that the… Read more »

karen macqueen+
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karen macqueen+

The Silence of the Lambs Today two persons lie dead, murdered in an attack by a gunman at a Tel Aviv LGBT Center. One of the victims seems to have been a counselor and the other a teenage girl. Approximately eleven other persons, mostly teenagers are injured, several of them seriously. It seems the attack took place during a support group meeting for LGBT teens. Many in the local gay community are blaming the antigay faction in the religious community for inciting violence and hatred towards LGBT persons. Does anyone wonder why this is so, when even we in the… Read more »

drdanfee
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drdanfee

Sadly the recent tragic shootings in the gay youth club in Tel Aviv give RW and other touted high Anglican leaders yet another, opportunity to speak and act on their alleged, self-proclaimed utter lack of animosity towards queer folks, anywhere, any time. Let RW and other global figures now speak out forcefully against the specific occasions of antigay violence in Tel Aviv and elsewhere; let them encourage their brother bishops of the region in speaking out, and taking action in society; together with other believers whenever such alliances are possible in those regions. On the other hand, perhaps being shot… Read more »

Ralph
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Ralph

I don’t understand what the liberal crowd is so afraid of. What is wrong in having a reference document like the Covenant? Those against the Covenant seems to me to be promoting chaos and disorder. Who wants a chaotic and disorderly Anglicanism. A house divided against itself soons falls apart.

John D
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John D

Mr. Diemel’s essay should be reqired reading for anyone who cares to understand where the mainstream of TEC lies, or where its fulcrum may be found; brilliant in all respects.

David R. Lyon
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David R. Lyon

Why have I not observed ++ Rowans use of the word
phrase ” Lifestyle ” in paragraphs 8 & 9 beforehand..?
Are we to think that he truly believes that same
sex proclivity is a “lifestyle” choice ? Forsooth .
In this far more enlightened age , being “Gay” is
rather a “being” , or genetic manifestation…
The Ikers and Akinolas of the present generation find this “lifestyle” choice a much easier concept to voice as they mishandle the concept of free choice to their swwming benefit .
as they manuever

John Henry
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John Henry

Things are moving fast after the 2009 Gen. Conv. Today, Aug.2, the Dio. of LA announced the slate of candidates for bishops suffragan of LA. One candidate is openly Gay, another a Lesbian. That follows on the heels of Minnesota’s announcement yesterday of the candidacy of a Lesbian, Dr. Bonnie Perry. All these developments must raise the blood pressure of +Rowan Cantuar and +Tom Dunelm, especially after their written responses to the Anaheim convention. The Anglican Covenant is dead on arrival. There are already too many Gay bishops and clergy in the C of E to be removed from office.… Read more »

BillyD
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“Who wants a chaotic and disorderly Anglicanism.” One person’s chaos and disorder is another person’s liberty. Who wants a centralized and authoritarian Anglicanism? The Anglican Communion, such as it was, did just fine before the idea of a covenant came along. What upset the apple cart was not the actions of ECUSA, but the inability of the GS crowd to deal with an arrangement where everyone isn’t in lockstep. A Covenanted Anglican Communion™ does not save the Anglican Communion, which is effectively being killed by the GS. Instead, it gives you something entirely different, and something I want less and… Read more »

Gerry Lynch
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Gerry Lynch

Why am I against the covenant, Ralph? Well, I sent a 900 word e-mail to a friend who would be a ‘moderate conservative’ Anglican here this evening setting out the theological reasons. Basically, it’s all about the nature of authority and the process of theological development. I’ll try to post somewhere online (not that the thoughts of a theologically illiterate layperson are necessarily worth much amongst all this learned opinion). But there are also practical reasons. It gives prelates in places like Nigeria the right to tell me how to order my church. People who not only enthusiastically support me… Read more »

Father Ron Smith
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Father Ron Smith

“I don’t understand what the liberal crowd is so afraid of. What is wrong in having a reference document like the Covenant? Those against the Covenant seems to me to be promoting chaos and disorder. Who wants a chaotic and disorderly Anglicanism. A house divided against itself soons falls apart.” – Ralph (on Sunday) – ‘Chaos and disorder’ seems a pretty strong statement for what the ‘liberals’ in the Church are seeking to establish within the sodality of Anglicans around the world, who only want peace and justice for women and gays in the Church. It seems to me that… Read more »

Malcolm+
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Anglicanism has been chaotic and disorderly from the day that Anglican bishops were established outside of England. Up until now, Ralph, it has done us just fine.

As an ecclesiastical body, we first came to be from the rejection of the idea that national churches should be governed by foreign bishops. Rowan’s Covenant is problematical because it seeks to overturn this.

On another note, I would like to let the editors know how honoured I am to have been the lead link in the current entry. Thank you.

drdanfee
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drdanfee

Progressive believer concerns about the new covenant are obvious, three fold. One concern is that the enforced lines of doctrinal conformity – not just Elizabethan Settlement in their careful ambiguities which would continue to allow believers to subscribe to transubstantiation or consubstantiation or both in some ways or neither – should most likely result in intentionally displaying unity by collapsing the traditional global Anglican big tents. A second concern is obvious, too. The new covenant will almost certainly be weaponized by conservative realignment forces, as has nearly everything else in modern church life so far once the great dumming call… Read more »

Cynthia Gilliatt
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Cynthia Gilliatt

“Things are moving fast after the 2009 Gen. Conv. Today, Aug.2, the Dio. of LA announced the slate of candidates for bishops suffragan of LA. One candidate is openly Gay, another a Lesbian. That follows on the heels of Minnesota’s announcement yesterday of the candidacy of a Lesbian, Dr. Bonnie Perry” In both cases, the nomination process will have begun before General Convention, according to the canons of each diocese. Candidates presented for possible election will have been subject to a rigorous background check, including financial dealings, any criminal record, interviews with people whom they have worked for and with… Read more »

drdanfee
Guest
drdanfee

A prayer for the youth killed or injured in the Tel Aviv center shootings?

At: Bradley Burston, Haaretz:
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1104635.html

PS be sure your antivirus is running; this site seems to have some odd pop ups? Caution?

JCF
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JCF

There is a logic to Lorenzo’s post (And kudos to you, Lorenzo, that I really can’t tell if you’re pushing a thought experiment to its logical conclusion, or if you really believe the initial premise—God have mercy on you, if the latter!) This “glass half-full” business IS an unequal yoke, a house divided against itself. Now I don’t expect places like Nigeria to come out and say “We know same-sex partnerships are blessed by God”. I DO expect them to humbly say “We don’t know” . . . and then LEARN from those Anglican churches which have learned of their… Read more »

Ford Elms
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Ford Elms

“LGBT teens know who their friends and allies are. And, for the most part they are not to be found in our pulpits or our churches. Who will offer Mass for the intention of these souls today?” Exactly. However, many of those conveniently ignoring that it was behaviour just like theirs that led to this also don’t believe in offering Mass for these poor souls. Many if them, truth to tell, don’t even believe they are poor souls at all. They don’t like to admit it, of course, but many of them don’t see this as tragic at all, in… Read more »

Ralph
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Ralph

BillyD, do you really believe that a chaotic and disorderly Anglicanism is a good price to pay for what you term your “personal liberty”? Even nations and organizations have constitutions and codes of conducts. Why would you want Anglicanism to be different? I get the feeling that you and the rest of the liberal crowd want a religion based simply on personal feelings and not on revealed truth and common belief.

Father Ron Smith
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Father Ron Smith

“Thus a blessing for a same-sex union cannot have the authority of the Church Catholic, or even of the Communion as a whole. And if this is the case, a person living in such a union is in the same case as a heterosexual person living in a sexual relationship outside the marriage bond” – Abp. Rowan Williams – What the good Archbishopp is missing here, when he says that blessing a same-sex relationship would be no different from blessing a sexual relationship of heterosexuals ‘outside the marriage bond’. Where then does he put the status of heterosexual persons whose… Read more »

MarkBrunson
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At this juncture, the only way we really could be in any sort of “covenanted communion” with the AC Rowan envisions is to completely remove all gay people, and those who teach the compatibility of homosexual relationships with Christianity, entirely from the church – pews and pulpits. His statement was: “. . a person living in such a union cannot without serious incongruity have a representative function in a Church whose public teaching is at odds with their lifestyle…” Though this was prefaced by a statement about *ordained* ministry, this statement is the poison on the barb. Every one of… Read more »

Cal McMillan
Guest
Cal McMillan

Does the Covenanter crowd really expect its reference document to put an end to Anglican chaos and disorder? “A house divided against itself” may indeed fall apart, but as others have pointed out, not necessarily soon. What a Covenant will do however, is ensure a lengthy and energetic and convoluted Communal spin. It already shows signs of becoming a new scripture, to be read, marked, learned and inwardly digested – and misinterpreted and wrangled over ad nauseam. Williams’ insistence on Covenant is surely taking the long, historical and perhaps cynical view, counting on weariness to ultimately prevail – within decades,… Read more »

drdanfee
Guest
drdanfee

Well a range of Jewish faith communities are already involved in candle light vigils – remembering the LGBTQ Youth killed or injured in the recent Tel Aviv shootings. These brave souls include an Orthodox Rabbi, Shmuel Herzfeld of a local Washington congregation. What said? Did Herzfeld preach that all this was overall just another sign of deteriorating society? Did the rabbi say that if gay youth centers are going to be open then understandably people will feel violent feelings, and sooner or later do violent things? Nope-sies. Herzfeld speaks: ‘ “It’s time to do some internal accounting” as to whether… Read more »

Pat O'Neill
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Pat O'Neill

“BillyD, do you really believe that a chaotic and disorderly Anglicanism is a good price to pay for what you term your “personal liberty”? Even nations and organizations have constitutions and codes of conducts. Why would you want Anglicanism to be different? I get the feeling that you and the rest of the liberal crowd want a religion based simply on personal feelings and not on revealed truth and common belief.” I have no doubt that those loyal to the British crown in 1776 in my own country firmly believed that the patriots were instituting disorder and chaos by splitting… Read more »

Pat O'Neill
Guest
Pat O'Neill

“BillyD, do you really believe that a chaotic and disorderly Anglicanism is a good price to pay for what you term your “personal liberty”? Even nations and organizations have constitutions and codes of conducts. Why would you want Anglicanism to be different? I get the feeling that you and the rest of the liberal crowd want a religion based simply on personal feelings and not on revealed truth and common belief.” I have no doubt that those loyal to the British crown in 1776 in my own country firmly believed that the patriots were instituting disorder and chaos by splitting… Read more »

JeremyB
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JeremyB

Ralph said: Even nations and organizations have constitutions and codes of conduct[]. Why would you want Anglicanism to be different? I would reply: Because “Anglicanism” is not a unitary nation or organization. It is a group of separate churches that trace their lineage from the Church of England, but long ago severed lines of ecclesial authority to Canterbury. So, for example, The Episcopal Church parted organizational company with the Church of England in the 1780s, as a consequence of the Revolutionary War. In doing this, The Episcopal Church acted in the best tradition of both Anglicanism and English parliamentary democracy.… Read more »

Fr Mark
Guest
Fr Mark

Pat O’Neill “I have no doubt that those loyal to the British crown in 1776 in my own country firmly believed that the patriots were instituting disorder and chaos by splitting from the mother country…”

…although in that they were quite correct, of course; not that I would wish to detract from the general thrust of the rest of your argument.

drdanfee
Guest
drdanfee

Just cannot let this easy trope, that inclusion represents a royal road to choas and disorder, go by unchallenged. Families hear this sort of thing all the time, the second anybody talks about inviting gay Tom or Lesbian Alice to the family do, together with partner and children of course. Somebody near or far, family or not, will loudly cry, You are going to destroy the family if you do that. Lots of family people and friends get very nervous, very concerned. In many families, people decided to do a test. We will invite the queer folks and kids once,… Read more »

Ford Elms
Guest
Ford Elms

“They are usually wrong.”

But they usually make better tea:-) Sorry.