Thinking Anglicans

ACNA motion: amendment

The text of the House of Bishops amendment to the ACNA motion is now available:

Item 14 Anglican Church in North America (GS 1764A and 1764B)

The Bishop of Bristol (the Rt Revd Mike Hill) to move as an amendment:

Leave out everything after “That this Synod” and insert:

“(a) recognise and affirm the desire of those who have formed the Anglican Church in North America to remain within the Anglican family;

(b) acknowledge that this aspiration, in respect both of relations with the Church of England and membership of the Anglican Communion, raises issues which the relevant authorities of each need to explore further; and

(c) invite the Archbishops to report further to the Synod in 2011”.

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Jerry HannonRen AguilaMarkBrunsonFather Ron SmithJCF Recent comment authors
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Deacon Charlie Perrin
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Deacon Charlie Perrin

Good old Anglican fudge! I love it.

John Borrego
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John Borrego

Oh,yes. We must be nice to mean-spirited, narrow-minded schismatics.

Tobias Haller
Guest

This appears to be non-prejudicial, reflects reality, and puts the responsibility where it belongs.

Richard
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Richard

Why? Bob Duncan is not an honest broker and he won’t give up until he’s succeeded in ACNA replacing TEC.

Charlotte
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Charlotte

Well, I’m very satisfied with this, and am delighted to be able to withdraw around 85% of my panic over Mrs. Ashcroft’s motion. It does come across as an intelligent and judicious response.

Will the ACNA representatives still be telling their stories to Synod members, though? That would indicate to me that I ought to hang on to the remaining 15% of my panic.

Jerry Hannon
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Jerry Hannon

From the amendment, as posted:
“…which the relevant authorities of each need to explore further….”

Can anyone tell me, with certainty:

(1) which are the relevant authorities?

(2) which provinces, or organizations (something not a province) are considered involved?

[a] CofE and TEC?

[b] CofE and TEC and ACNA?

[c] CofE and ACNA?

If it is [c], then this would be a sham and a pure conspiracy.

If it is [a], which I would consider proper, it would not make the schismatics happy, would it?

If it is [b], well, how long can everyone dance?

Ren Aguila
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Ren Aguila

I hope opportunity would be given to move an amendment saying that the Church of England desires to maintain relations with the Episcopal Church in the USA and the Anglican Church in Canada. I hope members of General Synod would dare move it.

Grandmère Mimi
Guest

Unless I’m missing something, the amendment seems to me no more than a recognition that ACNA exists and that the group wants to be part of the Anglican Communion and in communion with the Church of England.

Father Ron Smith
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Father Ron Smith

“94. There will undoubtedly be Primates and Provinces, such as those involved with Gafcon, which will wish to give recognition to the new body. Equally, there will be Primates and Provinces for whom even consideration of the request would be untoward, and involve the accommodation of schism” – Windsor Continuation Group Report on ACNA – This summation of ACNA’s provenance, by the Windsor Continuation Group, clearly enunicates the problems associated with the C.of E.’s possible acceptance of ACNA – in the PMM proposal being brought to the General Synod of the C.of E. For the Church of England to unequivocally… Read more »

Jeremy
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Jeremy

Jerry — Your questions are not well taken. Under this amendment, the Synod would be involving only “relevant authorities” that it is capable of instructing — authorities of the Church of England and the Anglican Communion (one of the “instruments of unity” of which is an archbishop that the Synod can “invite” to do things). This amendment does not “invite” either ACNA or TEC to do anything. Neither of them is mentioned. This amendment is a classic interesting-question-let’s-study-it-for-a-while solution. The word I have trouble with, however, is “affirm.” Why do the bishops think ACNA should be “affirmed” in its desire… Read more »

EmilyH
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EmilyH

I am sure that no one in the House would have a problem problem affirming that James II believed himself King of England either.

MarkBrunson
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I think it’s very good.

They want to “explore” further the issues before doing anything to officially recognize ACNA? Great!

Look how long they’ve been “exploring” the GLBT issue without doing anything.

David da Silva Cornell
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David da Silva Cornell

Jerry, I believe the correct answer is [d] CofE and AC (not ACNA).

In the wording “the relevant authorities of each,” the “each” seems to me clearly to refer to the CofE and the Anglican Communion:

“…this aspiration, in respect both of relations with the Church of England and membership of the Anglican Communion, raises issues which the relevant authorities of each need to explore further.”

Robert Ian williams
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Robert Ian williams

Have you noticed how Stand Firm are saying that Duncan is recognised by Canterbury because he addresses him as Archbishop!

The Pope addresses Rowan likewise, but certainly does not recognise his orders.

Sara MacVane
Guest
Sara MacVane

Abraham Lincoln, the state of the Union, and the Civil War come to mind once again, for if anyone who doesn’t like their own Anglican church enough to remain in it and can off and form a new one any time they like, then there is no end of the splitting off that might take place. It has been happening in USA for a long time, but although they keep using the name ‘Anglican’, they haven’t been part of the Anglican Communion. It is also curious to me that C-of-Es are suggesting this is OK – do they think that… Read more »

Jonathan Jennings
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Jonathan Jennings

I had to read this twice; at first I thought the phrase ‘those who have formed The Anglican Church in America’ referred to TEC …

Deary deary me …

David Walker
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David Walker

Charlotte asked whether ACNA members would be telling their stories to Synod members. I expect that there will be some ACNA people around at fringe events in Church House (any Synod member can book a room and send out flyers). I’d be VERY surprised if Synod were to vote for Standing Orders to be suspended so that ACNA reps could formally address Synod. Obviously, anyone speaking in the debate will be free to quote the words of any other person, provided they keep to whatever motion or amendment is being debated at the time. The normal practice of the Business… Read more »

Fr John E. Harris-White
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Fr John E. Harris-White

I would very much agree with Ren Aquila that the general synod needs to affirm both the Provinces of the Anglican church in Canada and the USA. They are the bodies who have remained in Communion, the others have walked away. Being goody two shoes, holier than though; but quite happy to refute the all embracing love of God in Jesus Christ for ALL his children. Let the synod for once have the guts of the Holy Spirit to affirm not only their affirmation of the provinces of the USA and Canada, but their believe in themselves stated in the… Read more »

PeterB
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PeterB

It really seems strange to me that people are up in arms about the possible acceptance of two Anglican provinces in the same geographical area, because that’s not traditional, but at the same time being up in arms with people who would like to hold on to the traditional Anglican teaching (not to mention the plain reading of scripture).

It’s almost as though the lines you can draw on a map have taken on more importance than the Gospel of salvation.

ettu
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ettu

What is there to study – they left and have made new lodgings for themselves elsewhere (well, some of them have refused to give up their earthly possessions to follow their conscience- but that is another side of the coin). Their belief system does not take precedence over TEC’s and TEC remains in communion – why dispossess the faithful son to make way for the noisy one? Does the squeaky hinge always get the oil???

Justin Brett
Guest

This is certainly better, but just a note of caution folks – there is no guarantee that this amendment will be passed…

Matthew Duckett
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Matthew Duckett

“I am sure that no one in the House would have a problem problem affirming that James II believed himself King of England either.” Affirming that he believed it is one thing, affirming his desire to be king would be quite another and would land the bishops in deep trouble if they did it. In affirming “the desire of those who have formed the Anglican Church in North America to remain within the Anglican family” this amendment would be saying, not only that that members of ACNA have a legitimate claim for membership of the Anglican family, but that they… Read more »

Philip Wainwright
Guest

Interesting to hear that Synod will hear ‘stories’ from people in ACNA. I’m sure you’ll hear them from people in TEC, too, and if so I hope you’ll hear some from conservatives in TEC, people who share ACNA’s view that all is not well but who don’t think that breaking away is the way to improve things. There are plenty of us (check out http://barnabasproject.wordpress.com), and I’d be sorry if the conservatives in Synod didn’t take that into account.

Jerry Hannon
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Jerry Hannon

“It’s almost as though the lines you can draw on a map have taken on more importance than the Gospel of salvation.” – PeterB No, Peter, you can’t substitute your interpretation of complex issues (that require the context of the entire Gospel), for a much narrower and definitive point. Geography is known. Unless there is a jurisdictional dispute about geographical boundaries, which we would certainly note in international bodies of law or mutual cooperation, there is one Anglican Communion jurisdiction governing the geographical lines of the United States, and one governing the geographical lines of Canada. In the same way… Read more »

JCF
Guest
JCF

“traditional Anglican teaching … plain reading of scripture”

Oxymoron, PeterB.

I don’t know what part of the world you’re in, but in much of it there’s *usually* a Fundamentalist Baptist or Presbyterian—or, um, “Sydneyan”—congregation nearby, who’d be happy to supply you w/ your “plain reading of scripture” requirement.

*I* would prefer to stick w/ “traditional Anglican teaching”, however—as would the overwhelming majority of TEC.

Father Ron Smith
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Father Ron Smith

If, indeed, the Church of England General Synod ‘affirms’ the desire of ACNA to be recognised as part of the Anglican Communion, then it will have already signalled its default acceptance of GAFCON as a legitimate ‘Council of The Church’ in Anglican terms. Does one have to shun the courts of Lambeth in order to be given some sort of priority status in the Communion? Will the schismatics of ACNA, who have already disaffiliated from the legitimate Provinces of the Communion in North America, be welcomed back into the fold unconditionally – considering their disinclination to remain with us in… Read more »

PeterB
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PeterB

Jerry – Geography is known… well the geography of the New world has been known for far less time than the Gospel, as the Anglican Communion for that matter. I might want simplify things, but that’s because I think there’s enough to do in life without learning all the inns and outs of this organisation ripping itself apart. That is really the point I’m trying to make… The whole thing seems to be a focus on Anglicanism rather than Jesus. Whose church is it anyway? Surely if we call ourselves Christians we should be focused on living out our faith… Read more »

Geoff
Guest

The existence of overlapping jurisdictions (as in Europe: with ECUSA, the CoE, Old Catholic and Lutheran churches) for pastoral reasons where there is full interchangeability of orders and sacraments is undesirable, but tolerable. The recognition of two coextensive provinces defined by a point of moral doctrine is unacceptable.

MarkBrunson
Guest

We’re *very* concerned about the Gospel of Salvation. That is not what the spurious “traditional anglicans” (who are neither traditional nor particularly anglican) preach. You’re welcome to set up your little tent revival and tell everyone about a bogey-man God all you like. The tent will *not* be set up in our pasture, however. Personally, I couldn’t care less whether we’re in the AC or not – just look at the Lords Spiritual and you see it has become both corrupt and inhuman. We would do just fine without them, if they choose to chuck us out. We’ll do just… Read more »

david rowett (=mynsterpreost)
Guest

Re: plain reading of scripture, I’d say the 39 articles (which is pretty Anglican in anyone’s book) are about as close to what the bible clearly says as one could expect to get. (PeterB)

And I’m sure John Henry Newman is in complete agreement with you on that one;-)

Jerry Hannon
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Jerry Hannon

“We’ll do just fine without the pseudo-anglicans if they choose to bug out. However, there’s no parallel jurisidictions because *we* proclaim a saving God and *they* proclaim a hateful little bureaucrat with neither compassion nor wisdom. *That* is where the line is drawn, in the essence of the God we know, so it is these “traditionalists” preaching a different religion. Sounds a bit like a sort of Islam, to me.” – MarkBrunson Well, Mark, they are really more like a “Christian Taliban”. Even Islam has elements of honest disagreement, but when you consider the extremely narrow-minded, destroy-or-conquer orientation of the… Read more »

JCF
Guest
JCF

“Re: plain reading of scripture, I’d say the 39 articles (which is pretty Anglican in anyone’s book) are about as close to what the bible clearly says as one could expect to get.” – Posted by PeterB This is going to be a first for me . . . but Robert Ian Williams, take it from here! 😉 [Seriously, I suppose I should leave it to an actual *current* Anglican (unlike RIW) to explain to PeterB WHY the 39 Articles are an *interesting artifact* of the 17th/18th centuries—but have little to do w/ Anglicanism in the 21st century (outside of… Read more »

Father Ron Smith
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Father Ron Smith

JCF, I agree with you entirely on the issue of the non/relevance of the 39 Articles of Religion. We have to admit that they were the product of the Church of England at the outset. They no longer can be regarded as seminal to the broader ethos of the Angliocan Communion. I still am able to preside at a Prayer Book Mass, amongst other Liturgies of the Eucharist, but I do not consider that to be exclusively constitutive of my – or any other N.Z. priest’s – understanding of the Anglican Communion’s eucharistic theology. I am aware that some people’s… Read more »

MarkBrunson
Guest

True enough, Jerry, that I don’t want “Christian” to mean these right-wing power-mongers any more than Muslims want Taliban to mean “Islam.”

However . . .

It isn’t the Taliban executing gays in countries under Sharia law. I’ve yet to hear the “moderate” Islamic groups make a defense of the lives and dignity of gays and lesbians. I’m sorry, but I find Muslim individuals who are decent enough, yet find little to respect in the religion itself.

Ren Aguila
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Ren Aguila

Speaking of ACNA, read about their presence at an event where Dr. Williams spoke:

http://www.svots.edu/archbishop-of-canterbury-receives-honorary-doctorate-from-st-vladimirs/

It’s toward the end.

Note that Metropolitan Jonah (who is ex-TEC and therefore more than willing to do this) declared on behalf of the Orthodox Church in America that they would recognize ACNA.

Jerry Hannon
Guest
Jerry Hannon

As to ACNA clergy being so prominent at the OCA event for Rowan Williams, I have to hope that he was blindsided by their being in attendance, and knew nothing about it.

Unfortunately, given his track record over the past few years, I somehow don’t expect such integrity on his part.

What a disappointment he has become.