Thinking Anglicans

Do gay bishops and primates exist?

Colin Coward has followed up on his earlier post and written more on this topic at Changing Attitude.

Read the full article here.

An extract:

…The culture of secrecy and dishonesty, the inability to be open and transparent and to communicate effectively affects Lambeth Palace, Church House, the Crown Nominations Commission, the Anglican Communion Office, General Synod, dioceses and parishes. It means that people either second-guess information or are left in ignorance. The culture is rampant and is corrupting the life of the Christian community. Every dimension of Church life is affected. People are intimidated by those who I might sometimes want to describe as prejudiced, loud mouthed bigots but whose self-image is as defenders of orthodoxy and tradition. They intimidate the ability of the Archbishop of Canterbury to speak and act freely and they intimidate me – but I have far less to lose…

And he concludes:

…Until the culture of fear and secrecy in the Church of England changes, the bigotry is challenged and our Church becomes a place which is free from prejudice against LGBT people, the Episcopal Church will remain the only place where LGBT people can come out and be elected as bishops. I’m tempted to start a new campaign. The culture of secrecy, intimidation and abuse in the Church of England has got to be challenged, undermined and changed.

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Perry ButlerGöran Koch-SwahneSara MacVaneFather Ron SmithFr Mark Recent comment authors
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Rod Gillis
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Rod Gillis

The good news is that any bishops who may also be druids can breath easier now I gather.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/europe/new-vadility-for-an-ancient-practice/article1739782/

pmt008
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pmt008

I am of a similar opinion on this matter, though for very different reasons. The CofE needs to sort out what it’s views on homosexuality are, both in terms of a theological understanding and how it works itself out with regards to the priesthood. Until it does, the mess that grips the Anglican Communion will continue and it is no good for anyone. Once that happens, those who want to leave will leave and the rest will either have to live with it or try and change things through the proper channels. Personally, I hold to the orthodox view. However… Read more »

Bill Dilworth
Guest

I appreciate the explanation of the numbers in the earlier post. While I have never had a problem believing any number of bishops in every Province of the Communion are gay, I had never heard about there being gay Primates before.

Robert Ian Williams
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Robert Ian Williams

Rod, in all fairness to Rowan Williams….the Welsh order of druids he belongs to is… a secular cultural linguistic society invention of the eighteenth century and has absolutely nothing to do with the pagan druids of the path. In fact my local Catholic bishop is also member of this purely cultural organisation..it is a great honour for any Welshmen to belong to it.

JCF
Guest
JCF

Awesome, awesome testimony.

“Personally, I hold to the orthodox view.”

Good to hear you affirm (in all orders of ministry) those whom God made LGBT, and their partners, pmt008! Isn’t it a joy (worthy of a -doxy) to rightly (ortho-) celebrate God’s People, in holy Love?

Queer & Orthodox (TBTG!),
JCF

Laurence Roberts
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Laurence Roberts

Of course there are ! People don’t cease to be gay when ordained bishop ! Glad Colin Coward is seeking to address it. ah yes, the Gorsedd of Bards be something else, Robert is right. I heard a nice interview with a Druid spokesperson on the Sunday programme this morning. He came over better than any one else I thought, as a witness to the reality of the divine in our world and lives. But then C of E interviewees hardly even mention the divine much. Lovely new eggs from Manchester diocese are not a bit pagan we’re advised but… Read more »

Jeremy Pemberton
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Jeremy Pemberton

If Rowan Williams has no problems with there being gay bishops, and there are a dozen or so in the church presently, perhaps it would be helpful if their names were known more generally. Not for a witch hunt – but so that their experience and understanding could be used to inform the discussion, which at present it can’t. I daresay that they have things to contribute but can’t because even to say some of what they could might implicate them as being gay. But there is nothing shameful about being gay – so why not say so? I remember… Read more »

Perry Butler
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Perry Butler

But Jeremy given the current situation in the Church of England it is naive to think there wouldnt be ….well a witchhunt is perhaps too strong…nasty and unpleasant repercussions for those concerned ( and their families and close friends as well) The C of E had its chance with Jeffrey John. Yes his perspective as an openly gay man would have been helpful to the House of Bishops as dean Victor Stock of Guildford said at the time. But the C of E cant bear a fuss or to put it more theologically “truth in the inward parts” as the… Read more »

Rod(erick) Gillis
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Rod(erick) Gillis

Robert Ian willaims wrote “Rod, in all fairness to Rowan Williams….the Welsh order of druids he belongs to is… a secular cultural linguistic society invention of the eighteenth century and has absolutely nothing to do with the pagan druids of the path.” Interesting. The descendants of the highland Scots here in Canada are real druids. Go figure! –the wee Gillis

Susannah Clark
Guest

Sorry, but I am completely opposed to naming gay bishops. It is wrong to ‘out’ people, and there may be many and various personal reasons why people don’t come out. These deserve to be respected and protected. With reference to Colin’s comments: I do believe that LGBT gets sort of swept under the carpet by many dioceses. If you look at diocese websites, where is the mention of support for LGBT Christians or young people or members of the public? Where is the diocesan organisation and initiatives to address all the issues involved in being Lesbian, being Gay, or Bi-,… Read more »

Susannah Clark
Guest

Here is an example of how the Anglican communion *does* show care and courage and leadership on behalf of LGBT youth etc – from Integrity USA, organised by the Episcopal Church in the US: http://walkingwithintegrity.blogspot.com/2010/10/call-to-action-against-bullying-and.html The recent suicides of five of LGBT youth this week is cause for grave concern. Integrity USA joins other LGBT advocacy groups to demand national action be taken to address bullying, harassment and the need for safety and inclusion for LGBT youth at schools, churches, colleges and universities across the country. We challenge our clergy in the Episcopal Church to take to their pulpits this… Read more »

Counterlight
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Counterlight

I add a hearty “Amen” to both of Susannah Clark’s posts here, with one small qualification.

While I too oppose outing people against their will, I think those who are in the closet and actively work against welfare and interests of LGBTs are fair game, including bishops and primates.

Martin Reynolds
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Martin Reynolds

When I was in charge of LGCM’s communications – I would not allow an LGCM voice on with Stephen …. nor David Virtue (though the BBC caught me out once) and Fred Phelps and a couple of others …. My understanding was that at Lambeth 2008 two celibate men who happen to be gay bishops were going to out themselves as part of the listening process, the story I got was that the homophobia was so “out and proud” that this did not happen …. Have others heard this story? We were of course completely shafted at Lambeth 2008 by… Read more »

leonardoricardosanto
Guest

I think those who are in the closet and actively work against welfare and interests of LGBTs are fair game, including bishops and primates.¨ Counterlight

Yes, it seems to me that anything less is making a deal with the sleezy codependent exploiters of LGBT under some false notion/sense of ¨loyalty¨…kind of like the hooded KKK, New Birth´s Reverend Longs ¨blank check¨ ministry and others who use their power/office to harm others.

Nat
Guest
Nat

“.. well a witchhunt is perhaps too strong…nasty and unpleasant repercussions for those concerned.” Yes, but bishops were appointed/elected to lead, and were not promised a life of comfort. Nor is it as if those of us who are out and active in the church have not had to put up with some repercussions… but we are the ones who have brought our churches to be Open and Affirming, who have brought the conversation to the table, and who have show in our lives that we are part of the church. I have to say that I am not in… Read more »

Murdoch
Guest
Murdoch

People in the closet know their desires only as shameful and guilt-inducing. And they project their guilt and shame onto those who are open. Living openly gave me a freedom and joy that the church had only promised. You can’t love in a closet.

Father Ron Smith
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Father Ron Smith

I agree with ‘counterlight’. One does not have to ‘come out of the Closet’ (or even be gay) to identify with the cause for LGBT Inclusion in the Church. Just do not blatantly oppose those people and movements who actually support this laudable and entirely godly and humane objective. One does not have to necessarily be actively gay to be able to offer hope to those in the Church who happen to have been born with sexual ambiguity or even outright gayness. The gay issue is not really a matter of sexual irresponsibility so much as a deeply-held human need… Read more »

junius
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junius

‘Do gay bishops and Primates exist?’

Sorry, I don’t have time to find the answer to the question in your headline, as I’m currently carrying out research into the excretory habits of ursine inhabitants of forested areas.

john
Guest
john

I’d merely point out that some unlikely people are complicit in all this. When I posted, at a certain date, about the appointment of a certain person, to a certain position, within the Anglican communion: ‘ “x” is regarded as gay’, Simon didn’t print it.

Simon Sarmiento
Guest

Yes, posts trying to “out” individuals are one of the categories of comment that we do not approve. There have been quite a lot of them over the years.

Cynthia Gilliatt
Guest
Cynthia Gilliatt

‘Do gay bishops and Primates exist?’

Clap if you believe in fairies!

Sorry – I couldn’t resist.

Spirit of Vatican II
Guest
Spirit of Vatican II

People who try to “out” others are subscribing to homophobic bullying and to the tenet that being gay is something shameful. Someone said “Personally, I hold to the orthodox view.” Well, the view that gayness is an objective disorder and that same-sex sexual expression can never be tolerated (under pain of death, according to Leviticus and Paul) can only be described as “orthodox” if you equate orthodoxy with blind faith in religious authorities no matter how out of touch with reality they have become. In any case “orthodox” is an expression better confined to dogma; on anthropological and ethical questions… Read more »

Cheryl Va.
Guest

Don’t agree with forcing people to come “out”. History has seen it used too many times at the beginnig of witch hunt cultures e.g. the recording of who the Jews were as Nazi Germany was being formed. It is sad that a soul’s gender or sexuality is the basis of assessing their “worthiness” to take on religious offices. It is even sadder to see soul’s do horrendous activities (e.g. predation of females and children by “safe” priests). Sadder to hear that the reason to avoid it is to avoid expensive law suits. Colin’s concerns about the culture that denies and… Read more »

Jeffrey
Guest
Jeffrey

We all know there have always been gay bishops, Gene Robinson was just the first person who was honest and open. Without giving any hints as to who the person is, yes, there is/was also a gay primate, a fact that was known by many in church circles in the province (not Church of England) concerned. As a rule I think outing someone is a terrible thing to do, even if the person is actively working against gay rights as a smokescreen to cover their own sexuality. In the US we’ve seen fundamentalist religious leaders and Republican politicians who are… Read more »

Fr Mark
Guest

Some 20 years ago, a whole load of clergy I knew were outed, one after another, in the tabloid press. There was quite an epidemic of it at the time, and some well-known clergy had their lives ruined, amongst them both my vicar and my diocesan bishop at the time. At that time, politicians were also regularly outed in the tabloids and also had their careers wrecked as a result. However, now we seem to have reached the situation where it’s fine for everyone – politicians, sportspeople, etc. – to be outed, in the sense of there being no nasty… Read more »

Father Ron Smith
Guest
Father Ron Smith

This whole perception reminds me of the old sally: “Is the Pope a Catholic?”

Sara MacVane
Guest
Sara MacVane

When the Jeffrey John incident was happening, I wondered why senior gay clergy in the C-of-E didn’t say ‘Well our ABC is young, he won’t be replaced by one us any day soon, so let’s come out and stand up for JJ’- might things not have gone differently? I’ve been reading a lot about WWII just now and often wonder: ‘What is the Pope, the ABC, Pres Roosevelt, Winston Churchill and numerous others – Christians en masse had put on a yellow star, saying: ‘As our Lord has to wear one of these, so do we’ – would history have… Read more »

Göran Koch-Swahne
Guest

I am with Fr Mark, Sara, Susanna and Counterlight! Something need to happen.

Perry Butler
Guest
Perry Butler

I take Fr Mark’s point in his last paragraph. I think it was Reinhold Niebuhr who said that usually the church was 30 yrs behind society in many progressive things..so we have something of a wait, I fear!