Thinking Anglicans

Opinion – 29 November 2017

Ian Paul Psephizo What is going wrong with theological education?

Kelvin Holdsworth Inclusive Language and Politeness

Pisky.Scot Independence, Boldness, and Persistence: The Rev Canon Dr Chuck Robertson reflects on the links between TEC and the SEC

29
Leave a Reply

avatar
3000
29 Comment threads
0 Thread replies
0 Followers
 
Most reacted comment
Hottest comment thread
15 Comment authors
Laurie RobertsRod GillisCRSSusannah Clarkrjb Recent comment authors
  Subscribe  
newest oldest
Notify of
Rod Gillis
Guest
Rod Gillis

Re Kelvin Holdsworth, “We shouldn’t use inclusive language just because it seems right and certainly not just because we are told to use it. We should use it because it is a matter of politeness.” Holdsworth’s view of inclusive language is very superficial by this reckoning. Inclusive language is not about being polite. First, justice often requires dropping socially polite pretensions. Second, politeness can often be manipulative. Canadians, for example, are often described and/or we describe ourselves as, ‘polite”. The politeness is often passive aggressive. One can also look at the use of courtesy and politeness in conversation in the… Read more »

Susannah Clark
Guest

As so often, I feel grateful for Kevin’s comments: this week, on inclusive language. I agree, that it boils down to thoughtfulness, kindness, respect. I guess, as a transgender female, I’m pretty sensitive to the ways careless language can erase or strip dignity from your identity. I feel the same way about gender in worship, liturgy, and public prayer. While I accept, pragmatically, that God is traditionally presented more often as ‘Father’ and ‘He’ and ‘Lord’ – and I can go along with that to an extent because I ‘get’ that it works for a lot of people – nevertheless,… Read more »

David Emmott
Guest
David Emmott

Ian Paul says a lot about the context of ordination training, about college finances and colleges vis a vis non-residential courses. He doesn’t appear to say very much about the *content*, and in particular the balance between formal biblical and theological instruction, informal sharing and discussion, and most importantly, the establishing of a solid discipline of prayer and liturgical formation, as part of a living and worshipping community. Having been trained more years ago than I care to remember, in a very traditional college, what I am most grateful for is the latter. Regular worship in the daily office and… Read more »

Susannah Clark
Guest

My own little religious life is founded on and framed by the daily disciplines of convent and its community. I have to agree with David: the daily routine of early morning prayer and contemplation, the offices, and time for lectio divina, along with mass/eucharist together – surely these are fundamentals for an aspirant setting out on ministry? A way of life as the priority, without which all the skills in the world may not be properly anchored. I was wondering on course content myself, as I read Ian’s call for some standardisation of theological training. There is so much to… Read more »

not flourishinghighchurchwoman
Guest
not flourishinghighchurchwoman

David Emmott, you seem to assume that non-residential training does not have contemplative prayer and the daily office at its heart. Many of us could not train full time in residential courses and we would not be accepted anyway as being over the age our diocese is prepared to invest in. However, it is contemplative prayer that has brought many of us to this point and our well established prayer practice and spiritual life is shared with our colleagues and our very different lives contribute greatly to our spiritual journey together.

Charles Read
Guest
Charles Read

The label ‘non-residential’ is no longer used by many courses. Our preferred label is part residential because we think the residential component is essential for reasons of formation.

Kate
Guest
Kate

Kelvin’s heart is in the right place and his intentions are very good, but to a certain extent he is swimming against the tide. Women have reclaimed words like actor, sailor, soldier – even minister – which were historically gendered and made them gender-inclusive. ‘Mankind’, I would argue is already, or is close to being, gender-inclusive too. In avoiding and replacing terms which have historically been gendered, he denies and hinders that process of reclamation. As I say, his intentions cannot be faulted, but I question whether he is really best serving the interests of equality, of women, in the… Read more »

Andrew Lightbown
Guest

I read David’s comments as a critique of Ian’s article on the ‘content’ of ministerial education and not on whether full time or part time students are more or less likely to engage with the essential and formational spiritual practices. All training for ministry should provide the space for the practical, the academic and the formational.

Rod Gillis
Guest
Rod Gillis

Re Kate, “Women have reclaimed words like actor, …[ etc.] made them gender-inclusive.” This is correct. This has been one aspect of making language inclusive. Interesting that in the U.S. the word “actress” is used by show biz. Whereas in Canada the term ‘actor’ is generally preferred for both men and women. Unfortunately Kate’s argument became inconsistent with the comment about ‘mankind’. It’s a bit of sheep’s clothing argument. Kelvin’s heart is not just in the right place. He is giving leadership in doing the right thing for a community of faith. My only critique is with regard the rationale… Read more »

Susannah Clark
Guest

Rod: “Happy St Andrew’s Day”

Indeed – I have the haggis, neeps and tatties on the go.

And the Talisker to accompany.

I always love November 30th 🙂

David Rowett
Guest
David Rowett

Ministerial stegosaurus speaks (small brained, thick-skinned). I hear of courses where the biblical element’s been squeezed down to 20 hours of lectures and two assignments. Now I realise that (regrettably) a working knowledge of Coptic is no longer a feature of most of the sits. vac. in the Church Times, but wonder whether enough time’s given to encountering the fundamental strangeness of the biblical text. I recall finding so much of the material alien in language and thought-form, and I like to think it made me cautious about reading off from the texts that which chimed in with my take… Read more »

David Runcorn
Guest

As someone involved in theological education/development either side of ordained/authorised ministry an additional concern regarding the space given to study of scripture in training is how much less knowledge of the bible people are starting courses with. They are starting from much further back than previous generations. In my tutorial group morning prayers at a theological college a few years ago the student asked to read the OT lectionary reading from Deuteronomy was spotted looking for ‘Deuteronomy’ in his Bible index.

Lavinia Nelder
Guest
Lavinia Nelder

On training for those of us doing one evening a week on the certificate course. We did introductions to: Church History, Christian Ethics, Spirituality, Theological Reflection, Old Testament and New Testament. Those of us doing it for fun also got a self directed project. The diploma course is currently thrashing its way through Bible in Context (Isaiah and Mark), So I reckon we’ve had quite a lot of scripture so far, but without having to learn Hebrew or Aramaic. The academic content is rigorous but rooted in what is needed for modern ministry – and that means finding out how… Read more »

Father Ron Smith
Guest

” Regular worship in the daily office and eucharist and time set aside for contemplative/meditative prayer is at the heart of the priestly life. I wonder quite how people being trained on the many non-residential courses are now being formed in this way, and if not how? That is the heart of theology.” David Emmet –

Well, David, with the new emphasis on ‘Bums on Seats’ and administrative efficiency these valuable elements – prayer and liturgical worship – would seem to have been left behind, to the lasting detriment of formation in activities that were once basic to a priestly calling.

Father Ron Smith
Guest

Canon Chuck Robertson’s article on the connection between SEC and TEC outlines the critical factor of the ordination of the first TEC (PECUSA) Bishop by Bishops of the Scottish Episcopal Church (SEC). The circumstances of this founding relationship after the American War of Independence – when it was considered undiplomatic for the Church of England to provide episcopal leadership for an independent ex-Colonial Church – provide a basic platform for the independence of both Churches from governing rule by the Church of England. Perhaps this is why both TEC and SEC are able to avoid the tension present within the… Read more »

Marshall Scott
Guest

Siblings responding to Kelvin: I think we get distracted if we don’t recognize that he’s not writing to those of us who recognize the importance of inclusion, including in language. He’s writing to (or at least about) those who understand “politically correct” as a derogatory and dismissive phrase. “Polite” may not seem the most potent word; but, then, we hardly use the word “politic” as an adjective these days. The point becomes, then, why would you want to use language in a way that brings pain to your sibling (whether in Christ or as a citizen)? Yet that is what… Read more »

Rod Gillis
Guest
Rod Gillis

Re Marshal Scott, “…we get distracted …he’s not writing to those of us who recognize the importance of inclusion … He’s writing to (or at least about) those who understand ‘politically correct’ as a derogatory and dismissive phrase” I get what you saying about audience as a possible key to hermeneutic; but If your theory is correct, then Kelvin Holdsworth may be missing an opportunity raise the consciousness of his audience. However, I wonder if you are not overthinking it? Notice his premise: “Inclusive language in church seems to attract a huge amount of comment but it is really mostly… Read more »

CRS
Guest
CRS

“it was considered undiplomatic.”

It was illegal. One had to take an oath to the crown. A law needed to be passed and in time it was. Then the new TEC Bishops–from PA and NY–were consecrated in the CofE. Not the SEC.

(I would also wonder whether the 1549 language is robustly epiclesis language, as per Robertson’s essay. I thought the non jurors got that robust idea from the Orthodox).

rjb
Guest
rjb

At the risk of sounding excessively English, I wonder what exactly is wrong with ‘politeness’? Politeness is not simply a matter of using the right fork and addressing an archdeacon correctly at high table. Politeness means the thoughtful recognition of another person’s humanity in everyday social discourse. It means consideration for another’s feelings and imaginative identification with their situation. It is the very practical application of all those great big vague abstractions that get thrown around endlessly: justice, equality, and so on. There is much to be said for politeness, not just as the lubricant to social interactions but as… Read more »

Susannah Clark
Guest

rjb, I agree with you about the high value of politeness, but not as an etiquette to maintain a status quo and hierarchy in a position of assumed power and entitlement. “Politeness is not simply a matter of using the right fork and addressing an archdeacon correctly at high table.” I should hope not. It matters not a jot what fork you use, and I should address an archdeacon exactly the same way I would address anyone else, whether the Archbishop of Canterbury or the waitress bringing the food to the table. Justin should be sufficient. People who object to… Read more »

Rod Gillis
Guest
Rod Gillis

Re rjb, what is wrong with politeness? One has to remember that it is a social convention. It is superficial. Polite discourse can be a way of buttressing a social stratification. I have attached a link to an article by David Remnick in The New Yorker, Blood at the Root, a letter from Charleston and the Emanuel nine. You would have to read the entire article to have the context for the citation below. “You have a city infected with raging politeness, relentlessly courteous to the point that no one’s doing much of anything, …This courtesy is hardwired into the… Read more »

Rod Gillis
Guest
Rod Gillis

The article, Independence, Boldness, Persistence is a lovely although a somewhat romantic read. The historical link between Scotland and the States with consecration of Samuel Seabury is a watershed. One could continue in the Anglican tradition without being a member of the C of E. How ironic he was originally a loyalist. The Canadian liturgical tradition was influenced by both the Scottish Prayer Book and the old 1928 American BCP, especially with regard to the prayer of consecration in Canada’s 1959 BCP. But Economic ties between Scotland and the British Colonies was very important. The American revolution, though often wrapped… Read more »

CRS
Guest
CRS

“somewhat romantic read.” Romantic indeed. Seabury was ardently loyalist. He wanted to be consecrated in the CofE and only went north for reasons of necessity. When White and Provoost were eventually elected to be Bishops, along with the candidate from VA who abstained, they went not to the SEC but to the CofE and were consecrated. Assurances were given by letter *from Seabury to the CofE* that the new Episcopal Church would conform to the standards of the CofE on creeds, authority of bishops vis-a-vis laity, etc. There are some very good histories of the SEC available. Seabury was virtually… Read more »

Rod Gillis
Guest
Rod Gillis

RE crs, “Seabury… wanted to be consecrated in the CofE and only went north for reasons of necessity.” Natural enough as a loyalist;but the turn of history is that he went to Scotland which resulted in a legacy–liturgy among them. I can’t comment on your “fund raising” comment. Don’t know much about that actually. American liturgist Massey Shepherd (The Oxford American Prayer Book Commentary) notes that with regard to the proposed 1785 Prayer Book Seabury was among several New England churchman hostile to it. Shepherd also notes with regard to the 1789 book: ” Its most significant change from the… Read more »

CRS
Guest
CRS

If memory serves, Seabury booked return passage to Halifax due to Nova Scotia’s reputation as a Tory redoubt, as he was concerned about re-entry into the States given his consecration as Bishop — an office virtually synonymous at the time with royalist claims. The epiclesis via SEC communion rite is everywhere an undoubted fact. At issue in my comment had to do with whether this was rooted in the 1549, as Robertson avers, or rather in the Orthodox liturgy. He makes it sound like it was an anti CofE move. I doubt that. Especially given subsequent concerns contra White and… Read more »

Rod Gillis
Guest
Rod Gillis

Re crs, “[epiclesis] …was rooted in the 1549, as Robertson avers, or rather in the Orthodox liturgy.” You and Canon Robertson are both correct. There was an epiclesis in 1549. How ‘robust’ it was comparatively is a matter of opinion. Robertson’s concise comment in his paragraph 5 quite clearly links the American epiclesis to The Scottish liturgy. I don’t read him as saying it was “rooted” in 1549. Both Cranmer in producing 1549 and the non-Jurors were influenced by Eastern rites. If there are copies of Shepherd and Hatchett at hand see the former on pages 75 and 81 and… Read more »

CRS
Guest
CRS

“highlighting one of those streams”

That is very generous. I thought his more obvious point was “there is one stream.” SEC to TEC.

Nothing you write here changes that.

The Robertson clan is McDonnaich, renamed by the English to ‘Son of Robert’ after the defeat at Blair Athol. My mother’s family are McConnaghays, buried in Calvin.

Our friend Robertson is zealous for “one stream” SEC-to-TEC. In that he misrepresents Samuel Seabury and his place in the origins of PECUSA.

Peaceful night in Canada, the true North strong and free.

Rod Gillis
Guest
Rod Gillis

Re crs, Gillis is a sept of Clan McPherson.Son the parson I’m told; ‘Touch not the cat but a glove’. However,I prefer the Cape Breton Tartan. Slainte!

Laurie Roberts
Guest
Laurie Roberts

Inclusive Language and Politeness ?

https://www.newwaysministry.org/2017/12/08/bishop-calls-nativity-scene-two-st-josephs-attack-christian-faith/

Bishop feels entitled rudely to attack private citizens garden crib — people he doesn’t even know !