Progressive Episcopalians of Pittsburgh has issued a press release, Revised Appeal Reveals Coup Plans against Episcopal Church which starts:
The release, on January 29, 2007, of the text of a third version of the request for alternative primatial oversight (APO) advanced by the Episcopal Diocese of Pittsburgh should dispel any doubts about the goals and strategy of its leaders. The Rt. Rev Robert Duncan is clearly attempting an ecclesiastical coup against both The Episcopal Church and the Anglican Communion…
The text to which reference is made can be found here. Links to the earlier versions are in the press release.
Obviously Tanzania is the opportunity coming up, but it is futurology…
Bishop Duncan. We seek APO.
Archbishop Williams. I cannot offer you this.
Bishop Duncan. It would only be temporary; we want to develop a new Anglican Church for my diocese and others.
Archbishop Akinola. I can offer you that, now.
Archbishop Williams. So what shall we put down for the minutes of the meeting then? You proposed and you accepted.
Bishop Duncan. Yes.
Archbishop Akinola. Yes.
Archbishop Williams. (turning) So put that down then.
Secretary-General Kearon. If I must.
If you read the Appendix of the second request -they quote the PB at length in order to demonstrate that she is hostile to them, thelogically unsound, etc. etc. I have to say I was mystified by what they saw there. I certainly didn’t see it. And I wonder if the ABC would have gotten all worked up, as well. Of course, the ABC may now be worked up about the third request. Particularly, if he invited Duncan without knowing about it. Do we know whether he knew about it, or why Duncan thought he had to go to the… Read more »
It looks like Duncan’s lawlessness is about to be rewarded by Rowan et al.
A lesson there for us all. Bullies have been getting their own way since Henry V111. I think the new PB will be up to their wiles. They have no power over TEC and its Constituion and Canons.
I think Donald Coggan’s invention is proving disaatrous. I had thought up to recent years that the meetings of primates ‘for leisurely conversation’ was one thing he got right. Can’t blame him, for what Carey did to these meetings, followed by Williams now.
Shock, horror: liberals don’t like what +Bob is doing! “Coup against…. the AC”? Notice most of the AC agrees with +Bob and notice the ABC has issued an amazing invitation to him…..to a meeting of Primates! He is being treated with incredible respect for a coup-leader against the AC! Is he not being treated more like a loyal soldier in an area occupied by rebels? The attempted coup against the AC was shown up in 2003, by the actions of TEC. Rebels have been tolerated (and paid!)while they subverted the church for decades but that aggressive action of TEC, against… Read more »
I wonder if this is less a matter of +Duncan “being treated more like a loyal soldier” than “…if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.” That might be giving ++Cantuar a bit too much credit, but I like the way it sounds nonetheless.
Jeremy – +Duncan is no “enemy” of the AC
He did not deliberately tear the fabric of the communion in 2003 – did he??
“more like a loyal soldier in an area occupied by rebels” Ah, but ought he not be treated as a faithful Christian in disagreement with other faithful Christians? Your use of military imagery is telling. Also, I have had communication from both Dallas and Pittsburgh, NP, and the listening that you believe Duncan to have done secretively, as per an earlier discussion we had, did not happen. He did not obey Lambeth either. Neither did Iker. Not that this makes them wrong, but requiring obedience from others when they have disobeyed themselves does make them hypocrites. As to payment, you… Read more »
Ford – well +Duncan is going to get a chance to “listen” at the Primates meeting if you are right and he has not done so before (which I still doubt but I don’t know him to ask) – but please remember that listening to hard experiences of people is not the main point however important that is: the argument to justify as good something which is clearly not described as such in scripture has been going on for decades and that, I am sure, +Duncan and others have listened to carefully and come to clear views. The military language… Read more »
The only thing surprising, and that a mild surprise at best, about the details of documents like this (Chapman memo revisited?) – is that their campaign has on occasion been disguised and/or denied by this or that leader of the conservative realignment campaign. So? Spin, spin, spin. Are we dizzy dried, yet? We hear similar disguises and denials when it comes to other related realignment issues. Especially in public and/or media communications materials? Some of my ConsEvs favorite speciments include: (1)this is not about sex, it is about the (our? magical? presuppositional?) right way to read scripture; (2) none of… Read more »
The great theologian, Calvin, actually presciently addressed this very question:
http://www.gocomics.com/calvinandhobbes/2007/02/02/
Even when all indications seem to contradict looking for the best in Williams, I have tried to believe that he is giving Duncan, Akinola, etal more than would be reasonably required only so that, when he finally says “NO”, as surely he must, they will never be able to claim they were not accorded fair treatment.
I have tried to believe this; but unfortunately I don’t.
I iterate the questions of C.B. The third document as presented to the global south bishops is far different from either 1 or 2. If the ABC was not privy to it, it is a major concern as the “way forward” and “cover” presented suggest a course that is in opposition to how the democratically governed churches of the covenant do business. In the US, TEC is governed by it elected General Convention. It has canons and a constitution, also developed in the democratic process. The electorate is broad including lay, persons, female priests and bishops etc. Its CEO is… Read more »
Having just watched an insightful documentary on how the internet has been used to indoctrinate young muslim radicals in a twisted, militaristic version of their faith, I was shocked to see similiarities in the tone used by NP in some of his posts here. If this poster is a young man in particular, I encourage him to discuss his faith with real live rectors/vicars and not to only get his information about Christianity from the internet. We are not in a war here – we are “thinking Anglicans” engaged in polite debate and the military metaphors are really unwarranted in… Read more »
I apologize for bringing Biblical history into this discussion, but such men as +Duncan remind me of the Israelites of I Samuel, Ch. 8, who gave up the merciful rule of God and clamored for a “real” king to rule over them. However, Samuel makes clear that this new king will introduce yet another form of slavery, rape and pillage. Nonetheless, the Israelites clamor for a king so that they might be “like the other nations.” And so, Saul was anointed. Things went well for a bit, but Saul then showed the corruption wrought by his power. Some bishops of… Read more »
Come now, friends. Let’s please steer clear of personal attacks on the various leaders here. Agree or disagree with them, they are men and women of faith who have dedicated their lives to God, however they may have come to understand him. On conservative blogs, KJS is demonized. Here, it’s Duncan. Let’s not focus on personal attacks, and keep the discussion on the issues, please. Duncan and many others feel TEC has left the faith. That’s pretty clear. Allowing them to remain Anglican in a parallel province while TEC sorts out how its changes impact its place in the communion… Read more »
Along the line of comments by EPfizH, The Church of Nigeria has called for a Special session of its General Synod to be convened February 6 -8th. Akinola has something he wishes to get from or tell to the Nigerian Church prior to meeting with the GS Primates, and Tanzania. In a few days, we will see what he has unilaterally decided for his church and its relationship to the AC.
C.B.
Harvard Man – Just want to understand this – you simply were not able to worship God as you understand him in your local Episcopal Church? Did they change the BCP, the creeds? -or was it you could not worship God as you understand because in order for you to do so it is necessary for you to have your understanding of God reflected back to you by your priest, your bishop and your PB as well. If so, that is not “traditional” Anglicanism. You simply seek place that has never been TEC.
C.B.
C.B., I do feel the church leadership is effectively changing the creeds. What do you call it when the PB and other bishops of this church deny core beliefs stated in the creeds? Bishops make statements denying resurrection, virgin birth, or other difficult elements of our faith, and the TEC of this era does not address such challenges. What does this church stand for, other than human justice? That’s all well and good, but if it becomes the focus of the church, then we’ve elevated it above Jesus as the focus of our worship. To say God is doing a… Read more »
“Duncan and many others feel TEC has left the faith. That’s pretty clear.”
The problem is that they’ve begun to believe their own propaganda. The assertion is absurd on its face, however, it has been repeated so many times that it’s taken on a life of its own and appears to be taken seriously.
Harvard Man – ruldh is right. Repeating talking points over and over doesn’t make them true. Church leaders don’t “efectively change the creeds by emphasizing love. It’s easy to say a creed, it’s hard to love. Loving your nieghbor IS a form of worshipping Jesus. Accorrding to Paul the highest form for without it all worship is empty, and according to Jesus the penultimate commandment. And what is this new thing God is doing this time ! Reaching out to those who through no fault of there own find themselves loving people of the same sex! What a horrible new… Read more »
“I do feel the church leadership is effectively changing the creeds.” How so? I mean, seriously. There are a few out on the fringe who deny the Virgin Birth, the Resurrection,etc. but they are not many. There are also not punished. Neither are priests who insist on throwing the Blood of Christ down the toilet or worse, pour It back into the bottle! It is manipulation of people’s worst fears to claim that they represent the majority. And why do Evangelicals, whose attitude towards the Mother of God seems to me at best lukewarm, CARE if some Liberal denies Her… Read more »
“mainstream Anglicans in TEC are clearly under siege” NP, Some “Liberals” would put it this way: They are the faithful remnant fighting a cabal of conservatives who are seeking to take over the Church and: 1. Are legalists who know nothing of the Tradition of the faith, but defend the morals of a few decades ago as if they represented True Christianity put into practice and 2. Are very well funded by wealthy Americal ultraconservatives, many of whom are not Anglican, who have a history of supporting anti-gay political measures, who are all linked to the Bush Republicans, and many… Read more »
Byron – SAINT PAUL uses the analogy of a soldier – this is not from the internet!
Not surprising we are in such a mess with TEC if people who think themselves qualified to comment have so little knowledge of the scriptures – I am amazed!
NP, And I am amazed that people who think themselves qualified to comment have so little knowledge of Tradition. Guess we’re even. I too have my concerns about what seems to be the lack of willingness and perhaps ability on the part of Western bishops to make Scriptural arguments, but be reasonable, what we say here will have no effect whatsoever on what will happen at the next Lambeth, or anywhere else. We’re just arguing here, not making a mess of anything except the health of each other’s souls. And I say again, the image of the faithful embattled remnant… Read more »
NP
I believe the point Byron is trying to make is that certain passages of Scripture are now repugnant in polite society and only those who claim Reason as a guide will be able to divine the parts we need to black line.
I really just wish I could get my Reasonable Revised Version of the NT so I know what to ignore – it would save so much time in my devotionals.
Ford – Tradition comes way below Scripture in Authority, as I expect you will agree (it is Tradition which allowed slavery and other abuses of people because Tradition is defined by people) This is why the issue is Scripture and its authority.
Chris says “certain passages of Scripture are now repugnant in polite society” – well, certain passages have always been unacceptable in society – what is your point? Should we follow society?
Don’t really want to do that as we have thousands at our CofE church in London but those churches which have followed society keep on shrinking
No, NP, Scripture is part of Tradition. We have argued this over and over here. Sola Scriptura, pretty much your position it seems, comes out of the Reformation. People began to see that in certain areas, the Church had obviously gotten it wrong, and this created a crisis of authority. If the Church got things wrong that were in the Bible, what about all the other stuff that wasn’t in the Bible, especially when the Church was so obviously abusing Her authority? The only place to go for authority was the Bible, as far as they could see, and they… Read more »
Ford – I guess we disagree that the idea of scripture having the highest authority was an innovation. Just because the Reformers stated it clearly, it is not necessarily an innovation…was it not always true? Many verses support the high view of scripture as you know. On the issue of the “purge” you fear – well, we have to be honest about the situation: both sides clearlly differ but were coexisting up to TEC’s deliberate actions in 2003, ignoring the pleas that they do not “tear the fabric of the communion.” That was the action (implicit in it was to… Read more »
NP, the very polite admonition about your militaristic language (and inbeddedly about the stridency of your tone) was a way of reminding you, that what is proper for Paul isn’t necessarily proper for Nersen. And then one must ask Which Paul? The real Paul? quasi-Paul?? or pseudo-Paul??? NP wrote: “… (it is Tradition which allowed slavery and other abuses of people because Tradition is defined by people) This is why the issue is Scripture and its authority.” I am sorry, but this is not at all true. The Bible (a pre Modern collection of pre Modern scriptures) takes Slavery for… Read more »
“was it not always true?”
No, it wasn’t always true.
“implicit in it was to say that scripture can be ignored on a certain issue”
And yet you still refuse to acknowledge the ways in which you ignore Scripture on certain issues. You need to stop proof texting, too, NP, that’s a really disrespectful way of reading the Scriptures.
Ford Elms asked: “And why do Evangelicals, whose attitude towards the Mother of God seems to me at best lukewarm, CARE if some Liberal denies Her virginity?”
This would indeed be most interesting to know ;=)
Might it be “Spin, Spin and Spin, Spin”?
Ford – you made me laugh by saying “NP, that’s a really disrespectful way of reading the Scriptures” – given you want to support some who clearly have a pick’n’mix approach to it. So, is it respectful to say, “This is just a book, guys, you don’t have to obey the bits in it that you don’t like!” Remember the issue: was what TEC did in 2003 right or wrong? This question must be answered with strong scriptural support for the answer. Goran – you seem confused yet again – Mary clearly had more than one child (obvious in the… Read more »
No dear NP, it is not “obvious” in the NT. Just ask Rome or the real Orthodox. They will tell you 2 conflicting stories (much dogma involved).
Fact is that terms of relation in pre Modern Clannish Societies are anything but exact.
Brother may mean biological brother, social brother, such as brothers at arms and partnerships, ethnical “brother” and so on;
Nepos may mean brother, nephew, grand-nephew, and so on.
And so on…
To sum it up:
The 7 main defences of Calvos are
1. Spin,
2. Evasion,
3. Changing the subject,
4. Outright lies,
5. “Statistics”,
6. Accusations,
7. ad hominem attacks.
“So, is it respectful to say, “This is just a book, guys, you don’t have to obey the bits in it that you don’t like!”” No, of course not, but no-one’s saying that, except for those who claim that it is their opponent’s position. Talk about your false witness! Especially when they happily ignore the bits they don’t like, then, when confronted, fudge away the issue in a manner they deplore in their opponents. I also think you need to learn more about the Tradition of the Church. You might try reading this: http://homepages.tscnet.com/psaraki/letter.htm The Orthodox, you see, argue “We… Read more »