Pie, Pie, a slice of the American Pie, cut specially for excluding LGBT and heterosexual woman from all levels of The Anglican Communion sky?

Better hurry gents, it's getting sliced pretty thin and there isn't enough to go around (and around)!

"Consecrations are scheduled for August 30th in Nairobi. They will collaborate with others in the Common Cause network, chaired by The Rt. Revd Robert Duncan (Pittsburgh) to provide Orthodox Episcopal care and oversight, strategically uniting a broad conservative coalition that shares historic Anglican faith and practice. (end)"

How can Mr. Duncan participate in this and still be a Bishop in the Episcopal Church? Perhaps, if they are only working in his diocese it would be OK since they would be in his jurisdiction with his blessing. But it would seem that their minitry would not be needed in Pittsburgh. In which case he is then poaching on on the territory of his sister and brother bishops.

I can't wait to see TEC bishops and churches in England (England particularly) ! Also we could do with some of the sensitivity and know-how of the CP of South Africa, in our fratured and troubled islands.

FWIW, the CV of the Revd Mr Atwood appears to have been typed, or at least relayed by email at a computer on which the MS Word installation information identifies the company as "Toys R Us".

Let me hasten to add that I have no problem with the idea that people at work can legitimately use the company computer during their break time for modest personal work. On the other hand, it is sensible to avoid leaving tracks that are not relevant to ones project. In MS Word, go to the 'File' menu, select 'Properties', go through the various tabs you will find, and delete or change the information as needed.

Joan R

What Toys R Us ar wealthy US backers of the breakaway? I think we should be told. Surely shome mishtake.

These lines have a Kenyan dialect to them...

_keen to recruit the dissident priests as bishops under their own authority and to provide a new spiritual home for their clusters of wealthy US congregations_

Is that dialect for 'keen to have clusters of wealthy US congregations'? Like my wife says in her favourite phrase, "Dream dream."

Interesting to wonder what would happen, at least theoretically, if TEC did back down. How do you get the genii back in the lamp? We now have a plethora (using the term loosely) of extra-territorial bishops operating on U.S. soil. What would one do with such folks (or what would such folks do) if the whole GR problem went away?

Steven

As worded this says that Robert Duncan chairs the Common Cause network, not that he will participate in the consecration, Deacon Perrin.

More and more schismatic bishops, as the usual suspects among the Africans invade, in defiance of Cantuar and Lambeth 1988 & 1998, another province of the Anglican Communion. Their rationale: they are called as "knights in shining armor" to ride to the rescue of orthodox Episcopalians who fear the takeover of their Church by feminists (e.g., Schori) and by gays (notably V.G. Robinson). Indeed, there are feminist and gay conspiracies all over the Episcopal Church, with Bloodhound David Beers as enforcer, assisted by the U.S. legal system.

The ultimate goal, as during the crusades in the Middle Ages, is not Christian mission but POWER and, in this case, male domination, as expressed in the familiar saying: "Father knows best." Women and gays have no standing in the righteous kingdom of God as long as "Father knows best." Therefore, they are to be sacrificed on the altar of male domination posing as "the faith once delivered to saints." May the Lord of the Church, the risen and ascended Christ, deliver us from such bogus Christian orthodoxy!

Steven, that's an interesting question.

Actually, some of us think that TEC has already given an adequate response to the Windsor Report.

Twice, in fact.

And what was the response each time?

Each time, the so-called Global South upped the ante.

Looks like they are not going to wait until September 30th 2007 before insulting the US college of Bishops!!!
I hope people in TEC see this as a sad rather than tragic move from African provinces...it is becoming a laughable Alice in Wonderland nonsense. The Africans were not GIVEN the rope to hang themselves...they MADE it. What a joke these people are. Episcopi Vagantes en masse.

Ignore them.

Oh the con-evo USA scenario probably goes something like: Duncan becomes Presiding Bishop, lots of prog-lib priests either publicly repent of asking theological or any other questions / or prog-lib priests are deposed or threatened with deposition, along with prog-lib bishops.

Prog-lib believers who will not repent and align correctly in keeping with the new con-evo juggernaut TEC, will be asked to leave - or de facto so often trash talked that we all know exactly who is being asked to leave.

Ahmanson and other funders become increasingly visible in the new con-evo TEC, and a large push is made to target UK and Canada in similar fashion, just as soon as possible. The UK movement to dis-establish CoE must probably be settled first, or Parliament and the royals will take a dim view of turning all the clocks backwards. First line of UK con-evo business? Overturning the newish SOR's and the civil partnership laws. Stephen Hawking at Cambridge needs to be replaced as soon as possible by a USA-style con-evo realignment pseudo-scientist and with USA-style creationist assistance, maybe the biology curriculum can be quickly shifted towards what is euphemistically tagged, Intelligent Design frameworks?

If USA history is any clue, a great loud revival would then sweep the land, and many people would repent of the dark sins of inquiry on any number of cultural or institutional levels. A constitutional amendment against gay marriage would be passed so quick, our heads would spin. And other Reconstructionist-leaning legal changes would return sodomy laws to the state compendiums. Monied citizens would sidestep and moderate the con-evo legal penalties by taking cures, via religoius and other reparative therapies, and less monied citizens would find themselves doing hard time. A very few red states would quickly re-enact Nigerian-style penalties, with loud arguments over the biblical death penalty prescribed in, say, Leviticus.

Pretty neat, really, as then all of us would be saved from queer folks and from prog-lib believerhood, all at once.

Hit the nail on the head, Steven. Each of these extra territorial bishops gets the purple shirt they didn't have before, and, their sponsoring national churches get cold, hard cash; a nice power play. If +New Hampshire resigned and TEC completely caved in on Sep 30, I can't imagine any of new bishops giving up crozier, cope, mitre, ring 'cause the 'crisis is over'.
These consecrations ower plays, pure and simple. I'm awaiting the next moves: England? Canada? Scotland?
BTW, any book on how many generations these new Anglican churches survive?

montyman

Steven
It would ALMOST be worth it to see what would happen. Suppose our HOB says "OK. We repent! We acted too fast. We will consecrate no more gay bishops and authorize no ssb rites until there is a consenseus in the communion. Now Bishop Minns must leave Virginia and go 'home' to Nigeria to work. Ditto for Guernsey Attwood etc--all back to Africa. Truro must submit to Bp Lee. Bristol to Bp Smith."

I don't believe they'd budge an inch. Do you?

No, they would not bunch an inch.

_Diocese, Congregation Announce Amicable Separation in Massachusetts_

But this is the best way of letting the walkers walk, soon to be followed by the overseeing provinces it seems.

"As worded this says that Robert Duncan chairs the Common Cause network, not that he will participate in the consecration, Deacon Perrin."

His lack of participation in the consecrations has nothing to do with my comment.

I intended that my comment to refer to -Duncan's support for these new poachers. In my mind it's akin to the stoning of Stephen in Acts. Saul did not actually throw any stones, but he did hold their coats.

Perhaps, to extend the analogy further, -Bob will have a "road to Damascus experience" himself and become one of TEC's strongest supporters. Stranger things have happened under the guidence of the Spirit, doncha know.

drdanfee: I think that if a united church couldn't change the pro-gay laws, then a conservative evangelical rump hasn't a chance!

But you know, they really might think thats a viable future...poor deluded things.

dmitri

You made an excellent point. It no longer matters what TEC does. They will not close these plantings; they now have hired hands and parishioners. In two centuries time, they will still be blaming the TEC for the need to form these churches. Just as how many millennia later they are still abusing women and justifying it on Eve's decision to learn what was required to become of one of the two guardians for Gaia's inhabitants as their collective consciousness began to coalesce.

Religious communities and faiths and civilizations come and go. God goes on. All humans are bound within space and time, and we all return to a just God who recognizes righteousness and blesses accordingly.

Our salvation and teachings do not come from men, but from God. We do not die for men, we live for God. We do not trust the justice of men, but the gentle justice of God as Jesus promised the Daughter of Zion in Matthew 24:15, in order that the scriptures might be completely fulfilled such as at Isaiah 42:12-13 where there will be a world without tyranny. We look forward to the day where God again is in communion 24-7 with all souls who desire him and Jerusalem shines its many hues with clarity and brightness so that all who wish to see may see and all who listen hear and all who trust live life to the full. We remember the prayers of the prophets Jeremiah, Solomon and Nehemiah and recall that while God might carry us into exile, that God is merciful and does not treat us as we deserve and preserves us for God’s own name’s sake, which is why God sent Jesus as the unique atoning sacrifice for all humanity for all time.

Dear God, we are tired of endless cycles of viciousness, vilification and abuse. We are tired of greed, corruption, selfishness and hypocritical complacency. We recognize that all of our suffering is not in isolation from our neighbors’ or Gaia’s. As one is suffering, we are all suffering. We lack the capacity or strength to heal ourselves, each other or even this planet without your divine intervention. We trust in you, and know you have in mind to create powerful transformations that evolve into upward spirals of peace, forgiveness and healing. We pray for generosity, probity, charity and humble conscientious faith.

Dmitri writes: "Suppose our HOB says "OK. We repent! We acted too fast. We will consecrate no more gay bishops and authorize no ssb rites until there is a consenseus in the communion. Now Bishop Minns must leave Virginia and go 'home' to Nigeria to work. Ditto for Guernsey Attwood etc--all back to Africa. Truro must submit to Bp Lee. Bristol to Bp Smith."

To be honest, I think that is what they will say on September 30th. Because in fact they have already said it.

So then what?

"How can Mr. Duncan participate in this and still be a Bishop in the Episcopal Church?"

Because, when a "conservative" bishop breaks the rules, he can only be doing it for the best of reasons. This is a pastoral emergency. The faithful remnant needs a place of solace in their grievous persecution because they won't burn a pinch of incense on the Imperial altar, ahem, sorry, because they won't be nice to gay people. Mixed up my persecutions there (blush). If a "liberal" should reak the rules, by, you know, marrying two women, well, he is just selling out the Gospel to the pagans and deserves the harshest discipline. Simple really. The equation of modern Christianity with the persecuted Church of Acts (after that, anyone who was persecuted only died for the "traditions of men" and is thus not really worthy of emulation) is a relatively old meme in Consevo culture, actually. This seems to be generalizing into the wider conservative Christian culture. Not surprising, when you realize that there is a strong societal trend of validating only those who define themselves as victims fighting against their oppressors. This is just another example of the worldliness of consevo culture. It's ironic when you consider they accuse everybody else of selling out to society.

Ford - "thou shal not cross boundaries" ain't no gospel imperative, sir!
We are concerned with those who teach it is ok to contradict scripture on certain (not all!)issues which they choose....but please show me where the bible says do not cross boundaries?

Also, please show me where it says "stay in communion with false teachers"....please read St Paul in Galatians or 1 Cor 5-6 or see Elijah's attitude (just 2 examples of many) and you will see why I say that we are not to be united with false teachers.....you may understand why I say they are "not my neighbour" if you read how ST Paul deals with them AND how he (and every other man of God in the bible) tells us to deal with false teaching - they tell us to avoid it and them (but maybe you know better than these and you would have told them that they should all agree to disagree and coexist with due respect for those with whom they disagreed???)

Please see what we are told to do when are confronted with false teaching......your comments about "worldiness" would apply to St Paul, Ford!!! He never encouraged tolerating false teachers in any way and in this he was completely in line with all leaders right back to Moses (as you know)

Charlotte....yes, TEC(USA) gave answers but not sufficient answers.
Have you noticed the liberal ABC and all the Priamtes of the AC in Tanzania asked for unequivocal answers by the end of next month BECAUSE TEC(USA)gave inadequate answers in 2006 and we want their yes to be yes and their no to be no...... not maybe, not 2 out of 3.....simple, clear, honest yes or no (the truth this time please, not when like Griswold joined with all the Primates in calling for VGR not to be consecrated - we do not need that kind of integrity!)

NP, your repetition continues to ignore the fact that all these pronouncements you continue to quote include that there whould be no boundary crossing, and yet these provinces continue to consecrate. You then dismiss that restriction by reference to the Bible, whilst making declarations over and over again about false teaching, which as such has not been demonstrated or accepted as of now. In other words, at least prior to this deadline, there should be no boundary crossings.

You keep supposing you know what the Archbishop of Canterbury will do, but the situation is presently as he has intended it, and if anything movement would be (if Desmond Tutu so persuades) to invite more, not fewer, and find ways towards diversity not uniformity (via so called false teachng).

You can repeat yourself as much as you like, but it is beginning to sound like an echo in any emptying cave.

If the alternative is the carrying out of threats to continue to boundary cross via leaving, let them do it. Don't mess about - get on with it. Do it, and come to England - just see what happens as a result.

Pluralist...I repeat because people like have not woken up (deliberately I am sure) to the reality of what the ABC has done.....you telling me you predicted what he would do in Tanzania??
(He did more against TEC's rebellion than I expected!)

Yes....boundary crossings were mentioned....so why do you think the ABC is making so little of these? There is no equivalence....and in the end, he knows that the church has an agreed position which the current leadership of TEC has abandoned so some of those who want to stick to the AC position have requested oversight from others - i.e. they are not rebels but dealing with rebellion in their province.

I know you and others will want to talk about all sorts of things which distract from the main issue but it remains that TEC tore the fabric of the communion in 2003.......that tear is not repaired by rewarding TEC for its unilateral actions and watching the AC's largest provinces leave because they have will not be forced to accept TEC's changes within the AC. Look at J John, TWR, Tanzania - the ABC is not into tearing the fabric of the communion (at personal cost to himself, he is for unity amongst the greatest no possible....as I say, he surprised me in Tanzania)

"St Paul"

Who?

"Galatians or 1 Cor 5-6"
I assume the first is the title of something, since you refer to this St. Paul guy as writing "in" Galatians, but who is the other author? All those numbers would seem to make for an odd name. Is his surname 5-6 or merely 6?

"you may understand why I say they are "not my neighbour" "

No, I will never understand how you can make that claim. It is contrary to the Gospel. But then, I really don't know the Gospel, have never read it, certainly don't believe it, and just make things up as I go along, right? Seriously, NP, if this is what is taught from the pulpit in your oh so successful parish, then your bishop ought to be apprised of it. I can't imagine he'd be too pleased with one of his priests spouting this kind of thing. Of course, if it's just coming off the top of your head, that's not an issue.

Ford...congratulations on your attempts at point-scoring, you're so clever, well done....but I encourage you to read what St Paul wrote to the Galatians and the Corinthians .... please study the whole bible more and you will become even wiser.

False teachers are my neighbour?
The Samaritan rescued someone hurt by the road.....there is no indication that we are to take that passage and apply it to mean we must accept false teachers as our "neighbours". Very dodgy application, Ford! Some on TA clearly do not know the bible well and misapply regularly to justify their own views /desires ....but you know better so please stop this weak "neighbour" argument unless you can show from scripture that I am commanded to accept false teachers as my (as defined in Jude 1 and other places)....but you know that is not in th bible (not from Moses to St Paul...to Ridley and Cranmer)

See just one example of how St Paul talks of false teachers eg Galatians 5v12
"I wish those who unsettle you would emasculate themselves!"
See the Lord calling false teachers "wolves"....

I can imagine an ancient Ford Elms saying, "Look Paul, your criticism of others, even if you are right, is not very nice is it?! You are not perfect,Paul, so how can you judge these other teachers? Why don't we all do our own thing in our areas but stick together anyway, ignoring what you say is heresy and sin?"

Please look at what St Paul (consistent with the whole bible!) says, Ford....he is not teaching tolerance of false teaching or that false teachers are our neighbours! In other places, as you know, he tells us to be and was himself robust in opposing false teaching! He even took St Peter on when he was in error....and Peter repented. I hope TEC repents this September...

By the way, The Bishop of London is very supportive of our work and church planting all over London....he talks of reaching London with the gospel and can see huge growth in the last 40 years in our parish and plants.....thank you for your concern for our episcopal oversight!

I seem to remember how the Windsor Report was presented by the Archbishop, for the whole event to be railroaded in a process of others going backwards and forwards between two headquarters. Secondly, I read carefully what he has said about boundary crossings, which is also why the boundary crossers themselves have not been invited to the party. I am not distracted from any main issue, and quite capable of seeing what it is, which is a group within the Global South attempting to impose a rule book on the rest of the Anglican Communion that goes against its ethos, the ethos as represented in the nature of the upcoming Lambeth Conference and the invitations made.

In so far as a mistake has been made by the Archbishop, it is in the attempt to combine this ethos with centralisation, so that there is a Covenant process to deal with innovations that were until this point properly left to some provinces/ Churches whilst others were more conservative. The likely outcome, however, of his present approach is either a split or something more like the spiritual commonwealth of mutual recognitions and lack of recognitions. Neverthless the Covenant process is subsumed into the more discussive method of many years to come, and is therefore likely to be overtaken by events (especially as the boundary crossers are seemingly unable to wait even a small number of weeks).

NP,
You sound like Fred Phelps! I'd suggest you actually READ Scripture rather than just mining it for support for your beliefs. You might start by reading all the passages that refer to the Pharisees and asking yourself "How am I like them". I know, you don't need to do that, you're perfect. Still, it might be a good exercise to help you learn how we live who are still striving for the perfection God has graced you with.

NP of Surbiton fame wrote: "... Some on TA clearly do not know the bible well and misapply regularly to justify their own views /desires... "

Oh, Oh - that must be me! I have been found out!!

;=)

NP said: "The Samaritan rescued someone hurt by the road.....there is no indication that we are to take that passage and apply it to mean we must accept false teachers as our "neighbours"."

Now, the whole point of the story was that the "orthodox" believers - the priest and the levite - had walked on by, crossing to the other side of the road, while the "unorthodox" Samaritan had come to the man's aid. Then Jesus asks, "who is this man's neighbour/"

So, actually, the whole point is that the false teacher, rather than the "orthodox" religious authorities, is the one who is the man's neighbour.

And you seem to believe that Rowan has practically endorsed the Akinolist practice of ecclesiastical poaching. You've simply got the wrong end of the stick there my friend. Indeed, Lambeth, Windsor and Rowan have all been very clear about it - and so have the majority of Primates. You just shut your eyes to the truth.

NP
"The Samaritan rescued someone hurt by the road.....there is no indication that we are to take that passage and apply it to mean we must accept false teachers as our "neighbours"."

You're right, I don't know my bible as verse where the Samaritan bent down to the injured man and made sure he believed in the right things and ascertained that he wasn't a false teacher, before he helped him.

Thank you for putting me right.

Sorry, slip of the "delete" button.

"I don't know my bible as well as you do, and what escaped me is the verse where the Samaritan...."

I thought John Sentamu's last statement was very instructive.
Seemed to me that he had no intention of allowing sexuality to be viewed as a first-order issue. That is the position of the Road to lamberth - but not the CofE

I remember the days when I was on Church Missionary Society General Council, in the mid to late 1980s and we were funding our General Secretary to go to Nigeria to help set up a Nigerian Missionary Society.
(CMS had a crucial role in the founding of the Church in Nigerian, Kenya and Uganda)
In those days we believed in 'partnership in world mission', and overseas missionaries coming from Nigeria to the UK to build the Church here - I suppose not just the UK, but 'everywhere' ('from everywhere to everywhere' was the slogan).

I suppose that pertnership has fallen by the wayside as the perception has increased that mutual accountability has also failed. Interdependence was the concept, mutual support and all that kind of stuff...

Now I am not saying that we were to blame for this... I reckon it would have happened anyway, but did we teach the Nigerian Church our colonial ways?

Erika and Malcolm....be sensible...the good samaritan teaches us to help anybody who needs help....it cannot be twisted to mean tolerate heresy unless one is very determined to do so!

Ford - Certainly, I will look at the pharisee passages and repent where I need to....will you do the same with what you call the "clobber passages"?? Please do study them again

NP
"Erika and Malcolm....be sensible...the good samaritan teaches us to help anybody who needs help....it cannot be twisted to mean tolerate heresy unless one is very determined to do so!"

Maybe you need to read the whole story. The lawyer asked what he must do to inherit eternal life and was told that " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind'[a]; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself." The parable was then told to explain who one's neighbour is.

This is not about being ready to give first aid to a crash victim, but about recognising that everyone is your neighbour, even the most unlikely person.

You said that false teachers are not your neighbours.
They are.

NP,

The "clobber", or "terror" or whatever, passages only address "the presenting issue" after being forged in 12th century Paris.

Try to learn!

dodgyvicar asked "...did we teach the Nigerian Church our colonial ways?"

According to some, they are merely repeating what was taught to them by the missionaries that came to them. Please forgive my chuckles as they marry that idea to being the souls who had the gospel first and were there to help Jesus carry the cross.

They were either there first, and thus needed no instruction from us. Or they have come through our teachings, and are thus open to clarification...

I sometimes ask whether it was Africa who taught Europe about slavery. The Europeans might have done it better, but the concept did not come from them. The Vikings were plunderers, the Celtics and Germanics fiercely independent. Slavery came from where?

Who is now advocating an institutionalisation of "authority" that justifies the never forgiving and endless accusations against the feminine and GBLTs or their advocates?

Bill Atwood made the following statement on Wednesday, as reported in the Herald Tribune - http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/08/30/africa/AF-GEN-Kenya-US-Angry-Anglicans.php :

"American males who are homosexually active have a life span that is three decades shorter than the norm," Atwood said Wednesday. "How can a church say, 'You are precious, we care about you, we love you, we want the best for you and now we want to bless behaviors that cause you to die three decades early'?"

This 'statistic' is being trotted out again. It is based on one small study on the impact of HIV on gay men by Hogg and co. around Vancouver in the late 80s / early 90s and should not be used in the way Atwood has done. In particular the use of it by Paul Cameron to conclude that the average lifespan of a gay man was 42 is simply without foundation. Hogg actually wrote to the International Journal of Epidemiology to protest at how his results were being misused - http://ije.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/30/6/1499 :

"Over the past few months we have learnt of a number of reports regarding a paper we published in the International Journal of Epidemiology on the gay and bisexual life expectancy in Vancouver in the late 1980s and early 1990s. From these reports it appears that our research is being used by select groups in US and Finland to suggest that gay and bisexual men live an unhealthy lifestyle that is destructive to themselves and to others. These homophobic groups appear more interested in restricting the human rights of gay and bisexuals rather than promoting their health and well being...Overall, we do not condone the use of our research in a manner that restricts the political or human rights of gay and bisexual men or any other group."

A full examination of Hogg's research, and an expansion of it to include the entire US, can be found here - http://grantdale.customer.netspace.net.au/Update_of_Hogg_00.html .

The use of such 'statistics' by Bill Atwood is completely misleading and insidious.

Erika...you actually believe what you are arguing?

-How do you explain Galatians 5:12?

-How would you explain how Paul writes about false teachers in 1 Tim Ch 1?

We are told to accept false teachers as our neighbours, are we???

It seems that 9 Primates of the Anglican Communion attended the Kenyan consecrations. That's out of 38. Doesn't exactly show overwhelming support for this action.

"the good samaritan teaches us to help anybody who needs help"

Yes, that's one lesson. Another is that it is folly to think holiness comes from following some Law. Remeber that the Priest and the Levite would have been considered holy by Jesus's audience. We can rephrase the story quite easily. Put a gay man in the ditch, bashed nearly to death. The priest can be a CANA priest, who passes by on the other side, afraid of HIV, as does the Levite. besides, if he was beaten half to death, he probably made advances at a good heterosexual man and thus deserved what he got. The Samaritan can be, not a "liberal" from TEC, but an atheist, or perhaps a pagan. Now do you see? Holiness is not in those who were religious, it is in the one who releived human suffering. Get it now? I doubt it.

"I will look at the pharisee passages and repent where I need to"

Yeah, right. If you haven't learned by now, I doubt you will. I still light a candle for you every week, in the hopes the Our Lady of Walsingham will come to your aid.

The front page of the New York Times website includes a report this morning, Thursday, with a photo, from Reuters.
http://www.nytimes.com/reuters/world/news-kenya-anglicans.html?hp

Wow!

9 AC Primates plus 1 retired Primate present......

This is amazing!

If we were seeing a small, right-wing sect intent on splitting the AC, I don't think any of these Primates would have been present - but what we are seeing is the consectration of people who will be part of the Anglican Communion in the USA in the future

"USA Today" publishes a wider-angle photograph of the consecration: http://www.usatoday.com/news/religion/2007-08-30-kenya-bishops_N.htm
Gregg Griffith has a post on StandFirm that identifies a number of the participants, among them Bishop Duncan of Pittsburgh. http://www.standfirminfaith.com/index.php/site/article/5449/
A further link from SF to Living Church (you can find this one easily enough for yourselves) indicates that Iker of Fort Worth was also among the consecrating bishops.

Time for TEC to impose some discipline and, if necessary, to start cleaning house?

"If we were seeing a small, right-wing sect intent on splitting the AC"

No, we are seeing a group of cynical politicos intent on splitting the AC, quite a different thing. I can recognize one "Nose of Wax" in the crowd. What's amazing about a cabal of likeminded cynical politicos getting together to underscore their political point? You don't seriously think they represent any more of a majority in the Church than the TEC "pagans" you love to hate, do you? Oh, wait, yes you do.

NP, I was merely correcting your wilfull misrepresentation of scripture.

Well, NP. it suggests that those 9 Primates may well be the core of a new Communion, to which the American secessionists will be attached.

But that doesn't suggest majority support within the Communion for the sort of draconian action suggested in the 'Road to Lambeth' which would not be acceptable to the CofE itself.

Wrote Lapinbizzare: "Time for TEC to impose some discipline and, if necessary, to start cleaning house?"

Won't happen, though. Contrary to the image manufactured by disaffected Episcopalians, PB Schori is not in the business of persecuting the Duncanites and Ikerites, although the latter have no other agenda than to destroy the Church whose Constitution and Canons they vowed to uphold at their own ordinations.

Give the Duncanites and Ikerites enough rope and they will hang themselves. Who takes them seriously anyway apart from the toxic, self-appointed Anglican bedroom police who can't wait for Judgment Day but want to purge the Church NOW of all notorious sinners?

Ford - thanks for the candles. I appreciate the thought (even if I prefer you pray to our heavenly Father and his Son who intercedes for us)

MM says "Well, NP. it suggests that those 9 Primates may well be the core of a new Communion..."

Belt up, MM!
TWR and Tanzania came from ALL the Primates!
Your silly logic wants those that agree with TWR and Tanzania to leave......

(note Tanzania addressed boundary crossings too)

Anyway - you really make me laugh with your logic!
A tiny minority in the AC rebels against agreed positions and refuses in FOUR years to come back to a position which allows unity in the AC.....and you say the majority should leave!

You would have been in the SDP - right??!
You would have told Neil Kinnock to leave the Labour Party to Militant?

If you want to score points, MM, at least try and make them logical

Oh, I pray to Him, too, NP, but I figure we both need all the prayers we can get, and I figure He has more respect for His Mother's prayers. Certainly more than you do.

"Holiness is not in those who were religious, it is in the one who relieved human suffering."

Yes and no. Religiosity does not make one holy - nothing we do makes us holy or righteous. We become declared righteous by God by grace through faith on account of Christ.

Ford, you've stumbled into the vortex that much of American evangelicalism and social gospel theology share: that some type of work on our part makes us righteous. These two schools disagree on the type of work, with evangelicals typically turning inward and social gospel teaching an outward focus. The fact is, God does all the work and we're just vessels.

Who pays all the air fares ? and what do the faithful back home in the pews make of all this primatial/episcopal jet setting???

It remains a fact that only 9 of the primates are willing to follow the extremist path at present, NP.

That isn't a majority.

"Belt up, MM!"

"See how these Christians love one another."

Losing it, are we, NP? Our endlessly repeated Lambeth 2008 pipe dreams falling into dust? Perhaps you have read Canon Dr. Sugden's most recent Windsor-compliant offering: "... since the Archbishop of Canterbury has not provided for the safe oversight of the orthodox in the United States, he has forfeited his role as the one who gathers the Communion."

"that some type of work on our part makes us righteous."

I didn't mean to give that impression, sorry for not being clearer. One of the bases of my faith is that we are accepted by God for what we ARE, not for what we do. I agree that justification by works is very visible in Evangelical thought as publically expressed, oddly, since their whole tradition is based on the work of the Reformers, who were solidly against it, and most modern Evangelicals would likely take great offence at the allegation I have just made. I don't see it as clearly on the Left, but I agree, it is there. Good works do not make us good, but they do show forth the fruit of the Gospel. Faith without works is vain. The point I was trying to make is not that the Samaritan's acts made him righteous in themselves, but that they showed the kind of behaviour we are all called to, as opposed to those who would have been thought righteous by the world.

Minority. Majority. Plurality. Who cares?

Athanasius was in the minority. "Athanasius contra mundi" and all that.

But Athanasius was right.

Ford,

We're agreed here. It's not just that God accepts what we ARE - He accepts us DEPSITE what were are. How amazing is that?

I think it was Bonheoffer who said American evangelicalism is Protestantism without the Reformation (i.e. a low church form of medieval Catholicism).

Yes, Sugden's missive was intriguing. looks as if he is planning to say that any breakaway will be the 'real Communion'

Malcolm+
'Athanasius was right'

Well, maybe.

Treason doth never prosper: what's the reason?
For if it prosper, none dare call it treason.

the same goes for orthodoxy.

This makes an excellent point. It was the point I wanted to make and couldnt think quite how to. So thanks for this.

'Athanasius was right'

Well, maybe.

Treason doth never prosper: what's the reason?
For if it prosper, none dare call it treason.

the same goes for orthodoxy.

Posted by: liddon on Sunday, 2 September 2007 at 12:13pm BST

I am with Arius evert time. I feel for him. Also I think g-d is indefinable mystery. I am more interested in Jesus' (neglected)message, than the Definition of his person.

On the other hand I have never denied the divinity of any man / woman ...

while we're on it - i'm a big fan of pelagius

"It's not just that God accepts what we ARE - He accepts us DESPITE what were are."

What I find humbling is that He accepts the worst serial killing child molestor too. Doesn't mean there's no consequences for that person's actions, just like there are consequences for mine, doesn't mean he should be allowed to go on doing evil, but God still loves that human being, despite how badly his soul has been disfigured. I think of the movie Dead Man Walking. The point of that was that, while many would give up on such a person, and even hate the people who minister to him, we are not give up. There is redemption to be had, even on the way to execution. Thank God He doesn't give up, unlike so many of us His followers.