I'd like to point out that the "All Saints" listed for Milwaukee is NOT the cathedral. I don't know to what congregation it does refer but it's not our reliable biretta bastion. It might refer to the All Saints ACC church in Janesville, Diocese of Milwaukee...I've not bothered to keep track of the alphabet soup and to whom they've pledged themselves.

This may all be obvious, but as a son of that cathedral my heart about stopped. Then logic (and a visit to their web site) kicked in...of course unless Bp. Miller is planning to abandon the Episcopal Church, there's no way the cathedral has gone CANA. As he is, to my knowledge, a loyal Episcopalian, no worries.

Still, I don't need that kind of shock before breakfast!

Q 20. Who is Martyn Minns and why does he
talk funny?

Well....

This puts to mind a curious question.

Are their any parishes or congregations in the Diocese of New Hampshire that have sought some form of alternate episcopal or alternate primatial oversight?

Tippet seals! I guess we'd better start taking this organization seriously, now, boys and girls. Evidently they mean business!

Question: are the seals trained?

I am tempted to order some of those patches--in a few years they will be collectible in the same way that George Wallace for President buttons are now.

Malcolm,
The Church of the Redeemer lost most of its congregation after +Robinson was elected. The congregation wanted a stronger form of alternative episcopal oversight than +Robinson felt able to give.
http://www.episcopalchurch.org/3577_41720_ENG_HTM.htm
The church closed a year later http://www.episcopalchurch.org/3577_57273_ENG_HTM.htm
The congregation founded by the parishioners who left is affiliated to a Kenyan Bishop. Its website is http://www.st-michaels-church.org/index_content.html

"Set me as a seal........"

Thank you, Obadiah.

So, as I read it, a small parish (55ish active members), which has been locked in confrontation and discord for more than 30 years, experienced the loss of slightly more than half it's members.

Bishop Robinson offered them the names of 22 conservative bishops for Delegated Episcopal Oversight and offered to reinstate their former priest in charge who had been deposed by the previous bishop. All he asked in return was that he be allowed to visit the parish officially once every three years and that he be permitted to meet with the parish in a less formal context annually.

Thirty very divisive persons.

Not a huge proportion of the diocese, then?

No, not a huge proportion of the diocese.
And it must be acknowledged that Bishop Robinson made a genuine effort to keep the group within the diocese. To his credit newly elected bishop Robinson offered to reinstate the parish priest who had been removed by his predessor.
But the story of the '22 bishops" includes the reluctance of Robinson to offer a "network" bishop until towards the end of the process.
"Thirty very divisive persons" is your comment, Malcolm, not Robinson's who described himself as "heartbroken" that they were leaving, and is not on record as far as I can tell being critical of this group.
In the end the catch 22 of having a group opposed to a gay bishop under the oversight of one proved to difficult to resove.

Thanks Obadiah

Was that the congregation that when the split came the Bishop was quoted as saying: "We are very excited about rebuilding this congregation," Robinson said. "It will be slow, but we are hopeful that this is a new day for the Church of the Redeemer."

and also that: "We are picking up new people in such numbers it is astounding me, from many other denominations, as well as some people who have been away from church 10 or 20 or 30 years and now want to come back."

But despite the amazing inflow of new people and the very exciting time forecast by the Bishop for this congregation, it ended up closing anyway?

Or was that another church in New Hampshire?

Margaret
if I didn't know you better I'd begin to believe you're deliberately ignoring me.

Do I really get no answer to my last post to you:

http://thinkinganglicans.org.uk/mt/comments?entry_id=2955

http://www.thinkinganglicans.org.uk/archives/2008_03.html

PB visits South Carolina, 5th March

Margaret, as far as I can recall, the "heartbroken" comment was made at the time of the Rochester split. The church that closed was the same church that the diocese had great hopes of rebuilding. In fairness, rebuilding a church after a split is always difficult, regardless of what side of the fence the group of stayers in on.
Some time later there was an intriging story of Bishop Robinson being spotted in the congregation of this (or perhaps another departing) group. That spoke to me of a man who was genuinely heartbroken that people had left his diocese. I am on the conservative side in this dispute, but it is apparent that this man has borne a big burden in our troubles.

Obadiah:

Only "too difficult" because the group of people involved refused to meet the bishop even three-quarters of the way, let alone half. They were offered 22 different people for alternative oversight and NONE of them was acceptable? Who were they waiting for...St Peter?

That CANA logo looks odd - either it's meant to be Omega (the end for whom?) or it's the 'does not equal' math(s) symbol. Who or what are not equal? Answers on a postcard to...

"Who or what are not equal?"

RichardM, do you even have to ask?

Pat,
were you in the market for alternative episcopal oversight I am sure I could come up with a list of bishops you might not want. You could do the same for me, i guess. "not-so-alternative episcopal oversight was what was being offered, until the last few weekls - as recounted in the ENS stories i linked to.

An answer to Malcolm's question was given over at Mark Harris' Preludium site that implied 10 parishes are not part of TEC in NH and that the diocese has taken a 14% hit in membership/attendance. Course people across the pond can't verify that, but it sounds a bit more than just 30 divisive people.

It seems to me that part of the problem with alternative episcopal oversight is that so many of the dissenters (willfully?) misunderstand it.

First off, damn those Brits for inventing the foolish notion of "flying bishops" in the first place.

But the "flying bishop" did not mean that St. Swithin's in the Swamp was no longer part of the Diocese of Woppitysplash. It meant that they were provided with a bishop more closely conforming to their views for the purposes of sacramental leadership and to play a role in matters of administration and discipline.

Clearly what the dissidents of Redeemer, Rochester NH wanted was not that. Instead, they wanted to be effectively severed from the Diocese of New Hampshire and attached to a Bishop essentially of their choosing - which bishop would have nothing to do with the diocesan on any matter soever.

Certainly the CofE experiment allowed nothing of the sort.

Sexual politics was a wonderful excuse, but strikes me this was less to do with theology than power. "Let me re-do the episcopal election . . . or else!"

Malcolm+,

"First off, damn those Brits for inventing the foolish notion of "flying bishops" in the first place."

I can affirm the sentiment, if not the desire for eternal damnation for the Brits!:-) Flying bishops are not Catholic. And do you notice how, while it is always the Left that is accused of seeking the approval of the world, it is always the Right that throws out numbers of attendees in any argument? Who is really seeking the approval of the world?

"it is apparent that this man has borne a big burden in our troubles."

Just as apparent, I would argue obadiah, that this is a Godly man, with many charisms for apostolic ministry.

I PITY any Lambeth episcopal assembly without +Gene---truly, it's THEIR loss. :-(

I object vigorously to Malcolm's reference to St. Swithun-in-the-Swamp.

You have misrepresented the parish disgracefully; and further more such levity is quite uncalled for.

J.C.D Smith-Blenkinsop (Col.retired)
Vicar's Warden Emeritus
St. Swithun-in-the-Swamp

St. Bede's behind the Bush?

St. Mungo's on the Moor?

St. Pancras's by the Pond?

Malcolm, Obadiah and Chris,

The Anglican Catholic Church (one of the breakaway groups in the 1970s over the ordination of women) has a number of congregations throughout New Hampshire. St. Margaret's in my father's hometown of Conway has been there as long as I can remember. Most of the conservatives left then, and these churches may have picked up more members in the recent troubles, though I doubt it has been a great influx. And some of the decline in attendance across the diocese may simply be a result of an aging population, especially in rural parishes.

I attended Redeemer in Rochester one Sunday about 11 or 12 years ago, as I happened to be in Rochester on a Sunday morning. I found it then a dying congregation -- fewer than 50 people in a nave that seated 250, and very little energy or life in the liturgy.

Fr. Tony Clavier has a very interesting reflection on the difference between growing churches and dying churches on his blog. (http://wvparson.blogspot.com/)

It begins:

'A priest, wise in the ways of reviving parishes recently wrote:

"The attitudes of the people, to God, to their priest, to each other and to the newcomer, are actually much more important than the style of the worship and the state of the finances".'

Ironically, Tony had been one of those who left the Episcopal Church over the ordination of women, and was an Archbishop with one of the "continuing Anglican" groups - I'm not sure, but I don't think the same one as you mention as having several congregations in New Hampshire.

Tony and I probably don't agree on the current besetting issue, but I always find him worth a read.