Monday, 17 November 2008

plans for a new North American province

Updated Monday afternoon

The Living Church reports in Convention Planned to Form New Anglican Province by Steve Waring that:

When the Diocese of Fort Worth voted Nov. 15 to become the fourth American diocese to leave The Episcopal Church, the leadership of the Common Cause Partnership (CCP) scheduled a constitutional convention in the Chicago area Dec. 3 to form a new North American Anglican province. The event will be followed by “a province-by-province visitation and appeal for recognition of the separate ecclesiastical structure in North America.”

Significant details about the plan were revealed in a short AnglicanTV internet video clip containing remarks delivered by Bishop Robert Duncan of Pittsburgh and Bishop Bill Murdoch, a missionary bishop to the U.S. consecrated by the Anglican Church of Kenya…

The video clip can be found here.

Monday afternoon update

And now, here comes the press release, Anglican Leaders seek to unite North American Churches.

Draft Constitution to be Unveiled, Jerusalem Declaration Signed at Dec. 3 Chicago Gathering

WHEATON, IL, Nov. 14 — Leaders of the Common Cause Partnership, a federation of more than 100,000 Anglican Christians in North America, will release to the public on the evening of Dec. 3 the draft constitution of an emerging Anglican C–hurch in North America, formally subscribe to the Jerusalem Declaration of the Global Anglican Future Conference (GAFCON) and affirm the GAFCON Statement on the Global Anglican Future at an evening worship celebration in suburban Chicago.

This historic event comes in the wake of GAFCON held in Israel last June with leaders from more than one-half of the world’s 77 million Anglicans. At the close of that gathering, Anglican leaders released the Jerusalem Declaration and the GAFCON Statement on the Global Anglican Future, which outlined their Christian beliefs and goals to reform, heal and revitalize the Anglican Communion worldwide…

Mark Harris writes about NIGPNA here with some coloured maps.

Posted by Simon Sarmiento on Monday, 17 November 2008 at 9:07am GMT | TrackBack
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Now that ex-Bishop Bob Duncan and faux-bishop Murdoch have anounced the imminent institution of a 'new' province of FOCA in Chicago on December 3rd, we will await the action of the ACC and the Primates Council of the Anglican Church to this schismatic breakaway from the Anglican Communion.

It seems that the intentions of the GAFCON folks is now crystal clear, and they have hatched the egg that has been sitting under the provenance of the Archbishop of Sydney and his cohorts in the so-called confraternity of the 'Global South'.

The 'Jerusalem Statement' has been declared to be the lynch-pin of this extraordinary amalgam of evangelicals and far-right catholics who have declared their disaffection with our Communion. One can only hope that this leaves the rest of us free to preach and live out the Gospel message.

Let us pray that the Faithful membership of TEC and the Anglican Church of Canada will now be free to reach out to the poor, the marginalised and the disadvantaged in the Church and the world, with the 'Good News' of Christ's redeeming love - as exemplified in the authentic witness of the Church Catholic, Apostolic, and Reformed.

Posted by: Father Ron Smith on Monday, 17 November 2008 at 10:32am GMT

Can anyone still argue that this is a series of unrelated acts, that all these people have been acting of their own accord, and that this is not a coordinated effort to undermine TEC?

Posted by: Pat O'Neill on Monday, 17 November 2008 at 11:12am GMT

"Can anyone still argue that this is a series of unrelated acts, that all these people have been acting of their own accord, and that this is not a coordinated effort to undermine TEC?"

Do they even bother to acknowledge the issue? There has been incontrovertable proof for the past several years (what's the name of the memo) that this is so, yet no-one publically slaps it up to them. Why?

Posted by: Ford Elms on Monday, 17 November 2008 at 12:33pm GMT

Looks like it's time for the rubber to hit the road. What confounds me is the fact that FOCA wants to establish an independent province of the Anglican Communion in North America but does not want to be in communion with some parts of the Anglican Communion. I really don't know how that is supposed to happen. The ACC and ABC will finally have to push things off the fence and make a decision. If they accept the independent province, they have accepted a fractured communion. If they reject it, they will have a communion at least in communion within itself although somewhat smaller, but at least it will be able to get on with things.
My suspicion is that Duncan and his ilk if recognized at an independent province will then spend their efforts working to have TEC and the Canadian church expelled. If anyone thinks it will stop with recognizing them they are dreaming. But then that's what Rowan's been doing all along the way.

Posted by: R. Fletcher on Monday, 17 November 2008 at 1:04pm GMT

Recently I was struck again by how much all this is driven by ambitious clerics when I re-read Jim Naughton's "Following the Money" and noticed that every single one of the priests coordinating the "realignment" has since become an African bishop. Guernsey, Atwood, Anderson, and Minns: each now has the headgear that he had coveted for so long.

And now, of course, Duncan gets to be the kinda sorta pretend primate of something or other.

Never underestimate the power of ambition and envy!

Posted by: JPM on Monday, 17 November 2008 at 2:39pm GMT

"Never underestimate the power of ambition and envy!"

I suspect Harvey wanted Primate of the Southern Cone, but he'll have to settle for Exarch of the Really Honest to God Truly Faithful Longsuffering Brutally Oppressed Anglican Church of the Northern Cone, or as some in this diocese call them, the Coneheads. One of the local Harveyite clergy is so orthodox, he saw no reason not to have his wedding on Sunday morning in place of the regular Sunday morning Service! Something to prove, methinks? Leading less than 100 people from the parish in which he caused significant division, but which is now, thankfully, recovering, he formed the rather ostentatiously named congregation of St. Steven the Martyr! I kid you not! The image of him and Harvey, arms outstretched, sighing "Oh, the forehead is better, but my wrists and ankles aches something shocking on times!" is pretty powerful. I wonder if they still have their seamless vesture, or did the House of Bishops cast lots for them long ago?Anyway, yesterday came the rumour that St. Gregory is likely to appoint him bishop! Must come as a welcome relief for his merry band of martyrs, since they were no sooner freed from bondage to the heathen than he reportedly was telling them to pony up the cash or he was off to better pastures on the mainland! Episcopal purple will do a lot to help keep the poor man in the manner to which he apparently would like to become accustomed.

Posted by: Ford Elms on Monday, 17 November 2008 at 3:44pm GMT

I wonder just how much division this will cause in GAFCON; for not all of them really want to separate from Canterbury officially, however much they might disagree with the Episcopal Church and the Anglican Church of Canada, and Canterbury's patience with us.

And/or is this the event that will force Canterbury to make a determination? For if GAFCON primates recognize this new entity and Canterbury does not, the FOCA folks have institutionally committed to separation. Of course, if Canterbury does try in some way to recognize this new entity, the landscape for the Episcopal Church and the Anglican Church of Canada will be clear. While I wouldn't speculate about my Canadian siblings, my guess is such an action on Canterbury's part would stimulate a significant backlash at next summer's General Convention of the Episcopal Church.

Posted by: Marshall Scott on Monday, 17 November 2008 at 4:18pm GMT

@Ford Elms:

Coneheads in full episcopal regalia?*

The mind boggles.

* - Would that be with chasuble or choir habit or black gown? Ah, wait, now I see, FOCA née GAFCON is comprehensive, where "comprehensive" means "no gays".

Posted by: Walsingham on Monday, 17 November 2008 at 6:35pm GMT

Good Lordy, they want Mexico (that will be fun to watch, I suggest that they remember the Alamo) and they´ve left Central America as a sort of blank check opportunity to be filled in by the feckless Venables who can´t crank up a lively Anglican Province in his thinly membered HUGELY populated area in South America? Please, these guys better start shipping the mattresses to give away to the ¨natives¨ like the Fundies do...also, better bring some VERY BIG LOUDSPEAKERS to outshout those who would try and outsmart the Roman Catholics!

Posted by: Leonardo Ricardo on Monday, 17 November 2008 at 6:36pm GMT

Separation into a new pure conservative and proper province plus recognition are only means to the larger end, which is clearly subversion, invasion, and takeover. Replacing, is I believe the key realignment believer watchword, and fits quite well with the pre-existing plans that IRD and other rightwing reformers devised so long ago now. That was way back when neocons dreamed of completely taking over all USA governments at the federal level, if not pretty much at all levels.

Those neocon dreamers still exist, and to them Obama is only a glitch, a passing neocon problem to be solved.

This dream is large, if you read the Institutes of Religion by R.J. Rushdoony. A really jealous deity, then. Whose heart is a locked and loaded weapon, just like Duncan and Company.

Whatever one thinks about Duncan and Company, like Rushdoony they do mean business - and the business is all theirs so far as invasions and hostilities and takeovers go. Big tent believers can only spend considerable time on viral small tent holier than thou conservative hot buttons and scapegoating, without being negatively affected by the drama involved. Pray God that this realignment will wear out its welcome, among all those whom it so loves to trash talk and target. Keep a standing watch, and shore up all big tent manifestations at every opportunity - but do not be overly impressed by GAFCONfections (thanks Mark Harris posters).

Posted by: drdanfee on Monday, 17 November 2008 at 7:20pm GMT

An "Orthodox Biblical province" which will have divorce and re-marriage and women priests. As for contraception not even an issue.

Anglicanism has changed so rapidly, that even the would be orthodox are liberals by the standards of Lambeth 1930 and Lambeth 1948.

Posted by: Robert Ian Williams on Monday, 17 November 2008 at 7:51pm GMT

Ford, are you sure you don't mean the Really Honest to God Truly Faithful Longsuffering Brutally Oppressed *Orthodox* Anglican Church of the Northern Cone?

Posted by: JPM on Monday, 17 November 2008 at 8:28pm GMT

Notice that the press release avoids the use of the word "province" writing instead "emerging Anglican Church in North America." Why?

Is it clear that SJ, Pitt, FW and Quincy won't stay parked in the Southern Cone for a while longer?

Posted by: John B. Chilton on Monday, 17 November 2008 at 8:44pm GMT

The Reformed Episcopal Church will be part of the new "Biblical" province. Here is the founding declaration of the Reformed Episcopal church...

This Church condemns and rejects the following erroneous and strange doctrines as contrary to God's Word:
First, that the Church of Christ exists only in one order or form of ecclesiastical polity:
Second, that Christian Ministers are "priests" in another sense than that in which all believers are a "royal priesthood:"
Third, that the Lord's Table is an altar on which the oblation of the Body and Blood of Christ is offered anew to the Father:
Fourth, that the Presence of Christ in the Lord's Supper is a presence in the elements of Bread and Wine:
Fifth, that regeneration is inseparably connected with Baptism.

And this is whom Bishop Iker and Forward in Faith, North America will kneel down next to, to receive Holy Communion, freed from the heresy of TEC!

Nice one Bishop Duncan..if you are primate of a new alternative Anglican province maybe you could be Co-chairman of ARCIC?

Posted by: Robert Ian williams on Monday, 17 November 2008 at 10:24pm GMT

Wow, all this anger and outrage over a group of faithful Christians that cannnot abide by the decisions of TEC The same TEC that has splintered the communion. After all, there are no egos, or bishops out of control, or money driven agendas in the TEC. TEC is just so above all these things, huh?

How about TEC concentrate on growing its church in this country. As we know, the over 2 million mark is grossly inaccurate. Perhaps, attract some younger folks to give energy into its witness. Maybe try to reconcile the different groups it has alienated by its uncompromising, unbiblical agenda. But, that would be too much like right!

Face it, the TEC will soon join the UCC as the fastest shrinking denomination in this country. Seriously, if what TEC was doing was working, wouldn't there actually be people joining the church, and local parishes being planted?

Posted by: J. smith on Monday, 17 November 2008 at 11:55pm GMT

The GAFCON folks are an alliance that simply will not hold together -- churches with lay (or diaconal - Sydney) presidency, next to churches that are already flirting with Rome (Ft. Worth). Some of these dioceses have women deacons, and Pittsburgh, if I am not mistaken, has women priests (although I have no idea as to how many, or which side they would be on). The folks going into this melange will have more differences with each other, than with the Anglican Communion.
Check out Catholic Web sites like Black Cordelias, or Whispers in the Loggia, as Rome salivates over the thought of mass Anglican conversions to Rome. If they only knew!

Posted by: John on Tuesday, 18 November 2008 at 12:06am GMT

Robert provides us with a timely reminder of just how deeply dishonest this sorry farce is.

That said, it would seem that the FoCAs are determined to create this new church and if under the banner of “fags are sinners” it manages to achieve some semblance of unity between these hugely diverse groups then it will have achieved something quite extraordinary. I am deeply moved, so as to speak …..

However it seems that Iker already wants Sydney to repent or be expelled for diaconal presidency and so perhaps this new denomination will have some major teething troubles and that right soon.

Of course they already know that the ACC will reject this cobbling together of old splinter groups into an alternative North American Province, hence we have Iker declaring the ACC – along with the other Unity thingamabobs - unfit for purpose and dysfunctional while in the next breath announcing they would be seeking the ACC’s imprimatur …..Hmmmmm! It seems Iker is expecting a poke in the eye so he is getting his in first!!

But as the end game begins the sense of farce is overwhelming, for at the centre of this debacle there are some people who have convinced themselves they are the authors of a new Reformation – and so their declarations are horribly stuffed with epithets of religious war. But they are completely unbelievable – for though they lay claim to the moral high ground their propaganda is peppered with misleading statements, half truths, exaggerations, vulgar personal attacks and downright lies, and their guiding principles are risible.

Just one example is the published claim that the groups breaking away from TEC are recognised by the Anglican Communion – in the only case where this has been tested, the diocese of Recife – it is clear that neither the bishop nor the community of churches is recognised – and they were not invited to Lambeth.

Of course they might say that only those who do recognise them can legitimately lay claim to be a TRUE part of the Anglican Communion and so the farce continues.

Meanwhile the Rowanites have hoisted a “we don’t think much of fags either” flag and I would not be too surprised to see the two sides competing over how much they each reject fagdom……… that seems to be the only moral high ground either of them can recognise – See what I mean? A sad farce.


Posted by: Martin Reynolds on Tuesday, 18 November 2008 at 1:47am GMT

Reading about this reminds me of the Baptists, breaking away to form the Free Will Baptists, or the True Baptists, or the whatever Baptists. Having a quibble about some part of theology, you say shove it y'all and start your own "true" church.

Answer me this, could these kinds of Episcopal break-aways happen without the Internet?

I agree with Fr Ron: "Let us pray that the Faithful membership of TEC and the Anglican Church of Canada will now be free to reach out to the poor, the marginalised and the disadvantaged in the Church and the world, with the 'Good News' of Christ's redeeming love - as exemplified in the authentic witness of the Church Catholic, Apostolic, and Reformed." To which I say, "Amen!"

Posted by: Jay Vos on Tuesday, 18 November 2008 at 3:09am GMT

I propose that we refer to the newly confected "province" as the GAFCONfection.

Posted by: Malcolm+ on Tuesday, 18 November 2008 at 5:43am GMT

BTW, Ford, the priest you mention was the year ahead of me at Trins.

Posted by: Malcolm+ on Tuesday, 18 November 2008 at 5:46am GMT

J. Smith:

TEC has splintered the Communion? How? By doing something within its own borders that has no affect on what anyone else does? Isn't that like saying I'm "splintering" my neighborhood by letting my gay brother stay in my house?

Oh--and you think you'll attract younger people to a church in the western world by restricting the rights of gays? Have you looked at the demographic data on that issue? That the younger you are the more likely you are to have greater tolerance toward the gay community?

Posted by: Pat O'Neill on Tuesday, 18 November 2008 at 11:01am GMT

"Ford, are you sure you don't mean the Really Honest to God Truly Faithful Longsuffering Brutally Oppressed *Orthodox* Anglican Church of the Northern Cone?"

Ooops!

"BTW, Ford, the priest you mention was the year ahead of me at Trins."

Ooops again! Or not. A wedding is a rather public thing, especially when it is the main Mass of Sunday morning. I guess you also know our rector.

Posted by: Ford Elms on Tuesday, 18 November 2008 at 11:31am GMT

@J. smith:

I'm sure TEC would be happy to do exactly as you suggest, evangelize the young and unchurched, if it wasn't for the fact that it is being driven to distraction by the actions of an extremely vocal minority determined to occupy property that is not rightfully theirs.

I would be able to take all this talk of a new province rather more seriously if it wasn't for the fact that Anglo-Catholics like +Iker are making common cause with REC, which is off the deep end in terms of being low-churchy, denying even the priesthood. For all the fancy talk of the faith handed down to the saints, the only common denominator I can see is the common claim to be supposedly "Anglican" in some vague sense and the common dislike of gays.

Even the talk of unity is specious. If they were really interested in unity, they'd have swum the Tiber (taking advantage of the Pastoral Provision to retain some sense of Anglicanism) or the Bosporous. Instead, it's the usual prideful clash of personalities so typical of the so-called Anglican Continuum. Theology doesn't seem to enter into it, but personalities sure do. (Really, just what is it that separates the Anglican Province of Christ the King from the Traditional Anglican Communion?)

Posted by: Walsingham on Tuesday, 18 November 2008 at 11:49am GMT

Pat, I suspect j smith is a troll who will not be back to respond to anything anyone says.

Posted by: Ford Elms on Tuesday, 18 November 2008 at 12:32pm GMT

"For all the fancy talk of the faith handed down to the saints, the only common denominator I can see is the common claim to be supposedly "Anglican" in some vague sense and the common dislike of gays."

I think the hierarchy of the Hell Bound is more like:

LIBRULLS!!!!!!!!!!!
Gays
LIBRULLS!!!!!!!!!!!
women
LIBRULLS!!!!!!!!!!!

Evangelicals would add Rome, then other catholic minded Christains, the catholic minded will ignore that uncomfortable fact for now, until their tat gets taken away.

Posted by: Ford Elms on Tuesday, 18 November 2008 at 1:22pm GMT

“Anglicanism has changed so rapidly, that even the would be orthodox are liberals by the standards of Lambeth 1930 and Lambeth 1948.”-- Robert Ian Williams

Indeed. And Romanism has changed so slowly that it took more than 400 years for them to render the Liturgy into the vernacular, and will no doubt take them another 400 years to select a woman Pope.

Posted by: Kurt on Tuesday, 18 November 2008 at 1:59pm GMT

@Ford Elms:

But what about the gay women libruls? Surely there is an especially hot place in Sheol for them?

Meanwhile this librul really is quite bemused at being rather more conservative-orthodox when it comes to the Creeds and ecumenical councils than GAFCON.

@Kurt:

The truly precious part about Latin and the vernacular is that in the really early days, everything was in Greek, which the Romans couldn't understand. So they introduced the Latin mass...so that the people could understand what was being said.

Talk about forgetting what the point was.

Posted by: Walsingham on Tuesday, 18 November 2008 at 2:45pm GMT

"Meanwhile this librul really is quite bemused at being rather more conservative-orthodox when it comes to the Creeds and ecumenical councils than GAFCON."

Me too! I suspect a lot of "libruls" are in the same boat. But, a glance at my posts for the past two years will reveal the folly of trying to point that out to those who have redefined 'orthodoxy' to fit themselves.

There's an English TV show being broadcast here, The Protestant Revolution, and it is an interesting and amusing thing to watch. It is patently obvious that the "heros" of the Reformation so idolized by many on the GAFCON camp were extremely radical, with a heavy dose of mistrust of authority, and rejected great chunks of Tradition. To have their spiritual heirs now touting such a conservative position, and reviling those far more traditional than themselves as "reassessors" and "innovators" is ever so amusing, I think, and reveals how self serving their definitions of things like "orthodoxy" actually are. It is also funny to see what the reforms of 500 years ago have led to in Western society. They even reference the current societal attitude that God is at best irrelevant as springing directly out of the Reformation emphasis on the rights of the individual! It's a close parallell to what I have read Orthodox (the real ones) theologians say about the effect on Western spirituality of the ideas that have crystalized in Penal Substitutionary Atonement, which turn God from The "Lover of Mankind", as He is called in their liturgy, to the Enemy from Whose wrath we must be saved.

Posted by: Ford Elms on Tuesday, 18 November 2008 at 5:53pm GMT

J.Smith: "How about TEC concentrate on growing its church in this country."

I suspect TEC would love to do precisely that. However, dealing with a couple of dozen thieves who want to rob the house has distracted them from more important work.

Ford - If your rector is who I think your rector is (in some part of CBS?), then he's my facebook friend.

Posted by: Malcolm+ on Tuesday, 18 November 2008 at 10:16pm GMT

Some sanity on numbers....

The Southern Baptist Church is in decline and this is the largest ( 16 million)conservative evangelical denomination in the USA.

Look at the Stand Firma and Virtue on line sites and they love statistics....they are virtually in ecstasy over the decline of TEC.

Yet Common cause partners in the new Province are tiny with a disproportionate number of bishops. The Reformed Episcopal Church has barely 10,000 members in the USA( and that is after 135 years of schism from TEC) and some of the tiny Anglo-catholic denominations are a complete farce.

Look at the Diocese of Quincy..smaller than the average English village.

The figure they give of 100,000 members seriously needs challenging.

Posted by: Robert Ian Williams on Tuesday, 18 November 2008 at 11:00pm GMT

Robert Ian has always a reasonable point to make and it seems that some Americans think these dreaded liberals are causing a decline in his own church http://dorcatholic.blogspot.com/2008/01/dor-mass-attendance-in-free-fall.html .

Roberts is a highly educated man perhaps the problem isn’t with liberals it’s just that when people become well educated they reject fundamentalist teaching from all quarters - at least that’s what one of his bishops thinks http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/religion/3464073/Educated-Catholics-have-sown-dissent-and-confusion-in-the-Church-claims-bishop.html

Posted by: Martin Reynolds on Wednesday, 19 November 2008 at 11:37am GMT

"If your rector is who I think your rector is (in some part of CBS?)"

No, inner city St. John's. Are you in New Brunswick?

Posted by: Ford ELms on Wednesday, 19 November 2008 at 1:57pm GMT

Martin Reynolds: thanks for the links. If you've ever heard Pat O'Donoghue speak, you'll understand just how he has escaped "the distortion of education."

Posted by: Fr Mark on Wednesday, 19 November 2008 at 7:52pm GMT

Never choked a single herring in my whole life. But I have jumped a lot of stubble.

And I'm thoroughly annoyed that Lord Grey's mug won't be returning to the defending champions. How very Anglican, we were let down by a bishop.

(Obscure enough for you, Ford?

Posted by: Malcolm+ on Thursday, 20 November 2008 at 3:45am GMT

"Obscure enough for you, Ford?"

Too much, I don't follow hockey:-) Waddaya expect, a fag to know football? And Lord Grey? Well I'll see who just lost their chance at the Cup. But in reference to his Lordship, a friend of mine, just after the moratorium (the codfish one in the 90s), used as her email sig file

"I will not rest till the Newfoundland fisheries are controlled from Ottawa. Lord Grey.

I hope the ole ba#@#$d is happy. Me"

Posted by: Ford Elms on Thursday, 20 November 2008 at 11:51am GMT

Newfoundland fisheries are definitely off topic, even if hockey isn't :-)

Oh wait, perhaps this is the real reason why the Southern Cone wants Canada...

Posted by: Simon Sarmiento on Thursday, 20 November 2008 at 12:07pm GMT

"Oh wait, perhaps this is the real reason why the Southern Cone wants Canada..."

I really don't expect this to be posted, but the fish or the hockey? If it's the former, they are in for a disappointment. And the Grey Cup is football, and the weird Canadian variety at that, it's not even American football, let alone the real kind! And you're right, it is an utter derailment, but the fact that the Anglican Church has been so absorbed in this for the past ten years that they have completely ignored the social decimation, the damage done to families as a result of outmigration and the emptying of rural communities, and destruction of an entire rural way of life, shows how utterly irrelevant this "New Province" is, at least to me. That wasn't my aim in bringing it up all the same. Sorry.

Posted by: Ford Elms on Thursday, 20 November 2008 at 2:05pm GMT

Gimme a break! And Ford gets upset when someone tells a Newfie joke!

Posted by: Kurt on Thursday, 20 November 2008 at 3:24pm GMT

Well, this puts things in a different light. I can tolerate gays in my church, but Canadians? What is the world coming to?

/me removes tongue from cheek

More seriously, it's really difficult to see just what would hold this new-fangled "Anglican" province together for long, given that the common glue seems to be merely "no poofters" (as their theology appears to accomplish the astonishing achievement of being more, ah, diverse than the Anglican Communion itself).

Hey y'all gay folks, rejoice! You're the reason we'll achieve ecumenical unity yet!

(I know, I know, more sad than funny.)

Posted by: Walsingham on Thursday, 20 November 2008 at 5:00pm GMT

"It's a close parallell to what I have read Orthodox (the real ones) theologians say about the effect on Western spirituality of the ideas that have crystalized in Penal Substitutionary Atonement, which turn God from The "Lover of Mankind", as He is called in their liturgy, to the Enemy from Whose wrath we must be saved."

I like this approach of the Orthodox! Ford, can you point me to some good reading on this?

Posted by: Caoilin on Thursday, 20 November 2008 at 5:05pm GMT

Yes Martin, education can be a very dangerous thing if it is not undergirded with a love for the Magisterium as the infallible voice of our Blessed Lord on earth.

So many modern Catholics have not been educated to see the Church as their Mother.

Posted by: Robert Ian Williams on Thursday, 20 November 2008 at 5:48pm GMT

The Saskatchewan Roughriders were the defending Grey Cup champions, knocked out of the playoffs by the poor performance of a quarterback named Bishop. And Canadian Football is far better than that wimpy American game with its four downs, "fair catch" and no rouge.

Anyway, it has been said that the only thing holding Canada together is a shared disdain for Toronto. It seems that GLBTQs fulfill the same role for the pretendy-orthodox.

Posted by: Malcolm+ on Thursday, 20 November 2008 at 5:56pm GMT

Caolin,

Google The River of Fire. It's a talk given at St. Vladimir's Seminary. It is full of anti-Western rhetoric, and the Orthodox can make our conservatives look like a bunch of pussycats when they get going on the heresy of others, so you have to wade through a lot of bile. On the First Sunday of Lent, they stand on the front steps of their Churches and pronounce anathemas on those who do not accept the Seven Ecumenical Councils, so I doubt they'd be too kind to GAFCON, for instance. I do think the basic premise is right though. God so LOVED the world. They are much more comfortable with Christus Victor than with Substitutionary Atonement, their Holy Week liturgies are full of the images of God seeing suffering humanity and in His compassion bending the Heavens to come rescue us from bondage to sin and death. So, to have Westerners portraying such a God, "Oh Thou Lover of Mankind" as they call Him, as a vindictive judge just waiting to roast people for all eternity if they even make the wrong decision about matters of faith (and even they decline to comment on whether or not the heterodox have salvation, it's not theirs to judge), seems to them a gross misrepresentation, likely blasphemous, and is the root cause of the decline of faith in Western society. Who would want to worship a monster who claims to love us and set us free from Law, all the while just waiting for the slightest infraction of Law so as to punish us? Why worship a God who is so vindictive that He had to engage in some bizarre act of suicide/infanticide in order to calm Himself down because He was mad with His creation? It makes God into a vindictive hateful judge, and a liar to boot. Now, don't be mistaken, you'll find as much bile, if not more, as you would find on Virtue Online, and just as much hatred of gay people. It's just, like with everything else, the Orthodox come at things from a totally different angle.

Posted by: Ford Elms on Thursday, 20 November 2008 at 6:37pm GMT

"education can be a very dangerous thing if it is not undergirded with a love for the Magisterium as the infallible voice of our Blessed Lord on earth."

You owe me a new keyboard! Thanks for the chuckle of a Friday!

"the only thing holding Canada together is a shared disdain for Toronto. It seems that GLBTQs fulfill the same role for the pretendy-orthodox."

And, you know, Canada's doing pretty good, and Toronto doesn't seem to be doing too bad despite the disdain we all hold for her. And trust me, these days, the Lord hath filled my cup so full with disdain for Toronto, it runneth over mightily! So, if we are to fill the same role in the Church as Toronto does in Canada, so be it. Just as long as we do as well in the Church as Toronto does in Canada! But then again, Ontario is now officially "have not", which has engendered no end of jokes here! So, maybe TO won't be doing so well in a few years.

Posted by: Ford Elms on Friday, 21 November 2008 at 1:30pm GMT

How many Torontonians does it take to change a lightbulb?

Just one. He holds the lightbulb and the world revolves around him.

Posted by: Malcolm+ on Saturday, 22 November 2008 at 6:04am GMT
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