"For I tell you, none of those who were invited shall taste my banquet." (Luke 14:24)

Well, there we are. The Church of England is breaking communion with the Church of Sweden. And they will not accept TEC in "their" communion even if we sign the Covenant, because (they say) we couldn't possibly mean it even if we do. With the Ugandan church, of course, they have no problem.

So what's stopping us (the North Americans) from joining with the Church of Sweden and the ELCA and telling the C of E to go get stuffed?

Consider well. If you want to know what it's really going to be like to stay in "communion" with the Church of England, head over to: http://www.fulcrum-anglican.org.uk/forum/thread.cfm?thread=13552 where several evo heavyweights are busy grinding down on one poor woman in TEC, who (they say) cannot possibly have any idea what her church has and hasn't done, even though she's there and they aren't. Well, she's just a woman, isn't she? Shut up, sit down, and do as the men tell you.

Not uncommon in evo circles. I've attempted to "discuss" questions many times with evos, and I know how their side of the "discussion" goes. It consists of their telling the opponent, over and over again (and "in a loving manner," of course): "I am right and you are wrong."

If that doesn't work, and the opponent persists in a different opinion, the evo goes all red in the face, starts shouting, refuses to discuss any further, and stomps off. Especially if the opponent is a woman. How dare she hold out for her point of view after a man has told her she is wrong!

"So what's stopping us (the North Americans) from joining with the Church of Sweden and the ELCA and telling the C of E to go get stuffed?"

I must say, this is sounding better and better.

Charlotte, BillyD:
I could not agree more. We do not need the C of E, nor the Anglican Communion. Let's strengthen our relations with ELCA, the Moravians, the Methodists, the churches in the Utrecht Communion -- those churches willing to work alongside us.

Look, it is completely obvious, now, no matter how big a defender of Williams and the Brocade Horde you've been, that his blind hatred of Americans combined with an equally blind toadying to Rome has led to his complete dereliction of duty toward the Anglican Communion. As such, the AC *as we have known it* has now flatlined.

We allowed a madman to stay in control, appeasing his enemies and alienating his allies, and the AC IS dead. We either die with it, or cut off the necrotic flesh, restructure the organs, and create a smaller, but healthy organism.

That's our only choice, and our only hope.

Charlotte, speaking as an outsider, it seems to me that you are exaggerating. The C of E has not broken communion with the TEC or with the Church of Sweden and as far as I know has no intention of doing so. The Covenant has no chance of working, because it would put the bishops of Uganda and Nigeria in the First Tier and those of the TEC in the Second Tier -- this would alter the character of Anglicanism in a way totally inconsistent with its tradition, which has never previously given such honored primacy to biblical fundamentalists.

"So what's stopping us (the North Americans) from joining with the Church of Sweden and the ELCA and telling the C of E to go get stuffed?"
- Charlotte, on Friday -

The simple fact, Charlotte, that the majority of ordinary people in the Church, like you and me, do not agree with the exclusivness of those who would condemn the Church of Sweden, in its appointment of its new woman Bishop; nor of the TEC s prophetioc stance on the ordination of women and gays, and its longing to bless the union of same-sex persons.

The present stand-off is caused by conservative and fundamentalist hierarchs, whose interest is in keeping the Church pure and holy, by dint of distancing themselves from what is going on in the real world of gender and sexual-orientation emancipation. "Blind Guides" is one description of this present political situation, which well describes those in the Church who battle against scientific discovery and Biblical hermeneutics.

And don't you dare run off on your own. We don't want any more good people deserting the cause of justice and spiritual enlightenment.

Much "cutting of weeds" is done in the reporting on the subject of invitations to tomorrow's consecrations...

The Church of Sweden generally is not good at explaining - especially in difficult political circumstances (I refer to the Anglican Wars). I suggest we be careful not to jump to any conclusions as to who has been invited and not...

Last time a woman bishop was ordained in Sweden (2007), I was invited to represent the C of E, on the grounds that "As the issue of women in the episcopate is still under debate in the Church of England, our current policy - which the Church of Sweden graciously accepts - is that we do not have episcopal representation at such consecrations." Sending a bishop's chaplain seems like some progress has been made.

For what it's worth, I have not been invited, though I have good relations with Swedish bishops. I am not taking it personally, of course. TEC is not a Porvoo signatory, and we have only this past summer decided to ask to begin full-communion talks with the Swedish Lutherans. Because we have recognized their orders for a long time, I had no trouble licensing a Swedish deacon for work with us, Siw Ölmelid. She's been a terrific addition.

Bishop Pierre Whalon
Europe

Father Ron Smith, please note that TEC isn't running of on its own. Your own church's leaders have told us that you do not recognize us as members of the Anglican Communion, and will not so recognize us even if we sign the Anglican Communion. Not unless we submit completely to the evos' will in all things can we be members of the Anglican Communion.

What would it mean to submit to the evos? Those who don't know really should have a look at : http://www.fulcrum-anglican.org.uk/forum/thread.cfm?thread=13552.

Here's the backstory. "Celinda" is a long-time member of the Episcopal Diocese of Pittsburgh, and knows the facts on the ground. But the evos have a story going about Wicked TEC and their abuse of the canons in Pittsburgh -- the faithful orthodox are being persecuted! "Celinda" tried to tell them the true story, and for her pains, she's been vilified and personally attacked in a truly nasty way. So far, only Pluralist has come to her defense. I wish others might.

Well there you may see evos in their native habitat, indulging in their natural evo behavior, and it isn't a pretty site. The story "Celinda" is trying to refute is one of many false stories about TEC circulated by evos to the rest of the Church of England. And yes, they do get truly, personally, viciously nasty if you try to oppose their falsehoods with the truth. I've experienced their nastiness myself.

To submit to the evos, to accept their bullying as normal and acceptable and swallow their falsehoods as truth without protest -- that's the price of our continued membership in the Anglican Communion.

I say no to the evo bullies and their lies.

"We understand that while the Church of Ireland and the Church in Wales received invitations, both of which were turned down, no invitation was received by the Scottish Episcopal Church or the Church of England." (quoting C of I Gazette)

Kelvin Holdsworth http://www.thurible.net/20091105/swedish-consecration/#comments" reports (scroll down) from Scotland "the Swedes invite Anglican bishops to their consecrations in rotation – sometimes, Irish bishops, sometimes Welsh bishops, sometimes English bishops, sometimes Scottish bishops. Seems that this time around it was not our turn."

From the Diocese of Lincoln (UK) intercessions diary for tomorrow, Sunday 8th.

"We give thanks for the developing relationship
between the Diocese of Lincoln and the Diocese of
Härnösand in Sweden and pray today for The Very
Revd Tuulikki Koivunen Bylund and her consecration
as the new Bishop of Härnösand."

This bit of the CofE is making its feelings fairly plain.....

As someone who has particpated in Swedish episcopal ordinations as a proud and honoured guest of our own Swedish link diocese, there is another real and solvable problem that really does need sorting out about the working of the Porvoo agreement, nothing to do with the gay issue, but becoming increasingly anomalous. Although I am absolutely no expert on such matters, I believe it would bear on any involvement by a C of E bishop in this service.

In principle our ministries are interchangeable, and I have deployed Swedish clergy in my area. However one detail that has not been worked out is the full recognition in England of orders conferred by Swedish female bishops. Swedish colleagues are really gracious about this anomaly, but it causes me real shame and embarrassment, and I wish our elders and betters would sort it out.

"Father Ron Smith, please note that TEC isn't running off on its own. Your own church's leaders have told us that you do not recognize us as members of the Anglican Communion, and will not so recognize us even if we sign the Anglican Communion. Not unless we submit completely to the evos' will in all things can we be members of the Anglican Communion.' - Charlotte, on Saturday -

Charlotte, not so! My affiliation is with the Anglican Church of Aotearoa/New Zealand, which has made no such statement of dissociation from TEC. In fact, one of our senior New Zealand woman Theologians, Doctor Jenny Te Paa, has preached and taught at the invitation of TEC, and other Provinces of the Communion, in her role as a member of our Peace and Justice Commission.

We in New Zealand ordained the first female Diocesan Bishop in the Communion, and we are hosting a programme of hermeneutic discovery, which hopes to de-mythologise certain parts of Scripture which appear to militate against the LGBT community.

Why on earth would we want TEC out of fellowship with us? We have our own problems, but by and large we are a liberal and outward-looking Church. My own Diocese of Christchurch, has a very capable woman Bishop as its Diocesan - The Rt. Revd. Victoria Matthews, who once served on the Canadian Commission which helped that Church understand the validity of the presence of Gays within the Church.

The 'problem' for Eva Brunne from the leadership of the CofE is not that she is a lesbian, but that she is open about it. Same for Gene Robinson. Some of the prominent women who are leading candidates in the CofE to be consecrated as bishops are lesbian - but they are discreet. And their sexuality is not generally known. Furthermore it seems easier for some reason for women not be be 'suspected' than men. As long as they keep quiet, there will be no problem for a whole raft of lesbians to be made bishops - just as many men were in the 'good old days'!

Sorry Father Ron Smth -- thought you were Church of England. My error!

"So what's stopping us (the North Americans) from joining with the Church of Sweden and the ELCA and telling the C of E to go get stuffed?" - Charlotte

Well, this Episcopalian does not want to be a Lutheran, or a Methodist, in the same way that he does not want to be a Baptist, or other neo-Puritan fundamentalist.

I say stay the course, affirm our Anglican roots, keep close to our brothers and sisters in the Scottish Episcopal Church, and the Church of Wales, and the Church of Ireland, and the Anglican Church of Canada, and the Anglican Church of Southern Africa, and anyone else who treasures the historic Anglican Communion.

Some day the Church of England will get over its numerous conflicts, and recognize that its future is also with the above Churches of the Communion, and not with Uganda or Nigeria or Singapore/Southeast Asia, nor with the English and American fans of such neo-Puritans as these.

If they want a Baptist Communion, then they should be honest about that and form one of their own.

By the way, while visiting my daughter and granddaughter, I attended an All Saints Day Eucharist at a parish northwest of Tampa, Florida, and witnessed a group of what I had to regard, by the way the service was conducted, as quasi-Baptists; it was an unsettling and uninspiring experience, so please spare me any conversion of the Episcopal Church to model any Protestant denominations, Christian though they may be.

We can, and should, cooperate but only if we do not risk losing our Anglican identity, so potential alliances should be very carefully considered.

"As long as they keep quiet, there will be no problem"

Silence = Death, Neil.

The Closet is a Crypt.

Well yes JCF. I agree. I am merely observing that this 'silent' approach has been acceptable in the past in the CofE, and it seems presently. It is just a little surprising that some of the prominent candidates to become women bishops allow their names to remain in the ring, whilst remaining in a Crypt. Openness...for both men and women, you must realise...is simply not acceptable for a CofE bishop in the present climate.

But who remembers bishops? It will be the courage of the bold that will be remembered.

"Why on earth would we want TEC out of fellowship with us? We have our own problems, but by and large we are a liberal and outward-looking Church."

Oh, we wouldn't, Father. We'll let you join, too. :-)

But remaining in communion with places like Uganda, Nigeria, and, increasingly, their enablers in England, looks less and less attractive.

I really think that those of you in TEC ought to remember that you have many friends in the Church of England who support you wholeheartedly, and find the direction you are taking to be a source of great encouragement and hope.

It is a little disappointing and quite hurtful, actually, for Charlotte and Jerry Hannon and others to say that the CofE should "get stuffed", and that you should ignore us and concentrate on your relations with other churches.

Bishop Alan Wilson raises an important issue. It's presumably not Swedish-specific or even Porvoo-specific, though. There are many Anglican clergy ordained by women bishops in the USA, Canada, New Zealand, and soon if not already in Australia.

Questions about this have been asked in General Synod before, and perhaps it is time they were asked again.

The question of why not all become Lutheran is an interesting one.

Of course there are fewer Lutherans than Anglicans but what is in a name. In Porvoo we have full communion between Anglican and Lutheran churches. TEC has full communion with ELCA.

The English Reformation is full of all sorts of historical accidents starting with Henry VIII but by no means ending there.

Like the fact that although Anglicans look sort of Lutheran the English Reformation took a Calvinistic turn as to Predestination and sacraments (in the 39 Articles at least).

Accident number two is the fact that due to the British empire and there being 4 home countries' Anglican churches (one of them never having been 'established' it has grown into a denomination of sorts, pure historical accident as it were - or perhaps Providence of a sort.

Lutherans seem to be navigating current difficulties much better than Anglicans so I think there is value in examining our shared heritage. We shouldn't be bound by accidents of history.

In the Scottish Episcopal Church, clergy who have been ordained by a bishop who happens to be female are regarded the same way as clergy ordained by bishops who happen to be male. They were regarded as having parity even before the SEC chose to make its ordinal an inclusive language one.

" It is a little disappointing and quite hurtful, actually, for Charlotte and Jerry Hannon and others to say that the CofE should "get stuffed", and that you should ignore us and concentrate on your relations with other churches." - Nick Lincoln

I can't speak for Charlotte, but that is not what I am saying about the Church of England.

I merely note that I do not expect the CofE to become supportive of TEC for some time, given the extent of the angst witihin that church of the Anglican Communion, and the lack of demonstrated support from most of the episcopate and clergy.

Sadly, as I have had some wonderful experiences in English churches during my business and vacation trips there, there seems to be a tendency to be reserved even about supporting brothers and sisters of similar beliefs. I wish it was otherwise, and have no solution.

In summary, I am not saying "get stuffed", but I am simply recognizing that the CofE seems more likely to be a follower of sister churches, than a prophetic leader of them.

As an aside, on the subject of being an open church versus one that treasures not rocking the boat or preferring quiet dishonesty, I can recall in my early days as an Episcopalian (from about 1976) spending many Sundays in London at a relatively small parish north of Oxford Street where it was obvious that the Vicar had a relationship of long standing with the parish Music Director, a man, yet no member of the parish seemed to care. The Bishop and his staff would have to have been deaf, dumb, and blind not to know.

That was an Anglo Catholic parish, and I have visited a number of others, some with probably gay clergy, and some not, and again nobody seemed to care.

All were wonderful and uplifting experiences for this straight, married, former Roman Catholic.

So, when is the CofE going to come out of the closet?

And what's wrong with a committed relationship with a member of the same sex?

This is one of the disappointing aspects of the CofE; it seems to prefer dishonesty among its own clergy, to honesty among those of the Episcopal Church.

I do believe that this will change, but I am disappointed in the present lack of support, even from most of those who recognize that the Episcopal Church is being true to its Christian beliefs, and its Anglican heritage.

Craig: "Lutherans seem to be navigating current difficulties much better than Anglicans so I think there is value in examining our shared heritage."

Yes, I think you're quite right. The three Scandinavian monarchies, in particular, are so close to the UK, not only geographically, but in so many other ways. Perhaps the Anglican churches of the British Isles should be approaching the Scandinavian churches in order to learn from them, rather than merely scold them, as the C of E's representatives rather embarrassingly and pointlessly did to the Church of Sweden over its recent marriage vote.

British social mores have been moving closer and closer to Scandinavian ones over the past few decades: a society which treats women equally and has got over destructive taboo regarding gay people has been the reality in Sweden, Denmark and southern Norway longer than in the UK, and their churches have been dealing with the issues much better.

As church attendance in the UK amongst the non-immigrant population is probably, if we are to be honest, lower than in Scandinavia, perhaps it is worth looking at how they are hanging on better to their connections with their wider Christian population than is the case in Britain.

Look the dynamics are all too polarized and morphed already, plain and simple. Either we stay in communion with Canterbury and holy high roller conservative Anglicans like Sydney, Nigeria and Uganda and Rwanda and... while they constantly repeat lies and rumors and nastiness about us in too many ways to count, while sucking off as much in the way of available time and and church resources as are "realign-able"; or we split (at least de facto) and emphasize common prayer and Tikkun service instead of weaponized Anglican doctrines, preachments, and fighting. What if the Anglican conservatives gave yet another war whoop; and we happened not to show up? Our temporary absence is a fair witness, and it cannot be much of a witness that we keep trying to have tea at Canterbury while he stubbornly preaches just horrid falsehoods about us.

The real Anglican dis-orientations will become clear over time, but it will take a long, long, long time. And probably some dollops of fairly egregious violence? Jeffrey John was only an inkling of what nastiness is waiting in the British Anglican wings. With Rowan Williams mildly standing by, occasionally nodding approvals or nodding aside or nodding off, and occasionally publishing great windy essays wherein only groveling gay folks and prostrate women are valuable to God and to British believers. Especially if British conservatives manage to stall the much delayed lift-off of the women bishops fleet change.

There is a folk lesson, saying: When you come into a village with the good news, if they do not receive you, shake off the dust from your shoes as you leave that village. The clincher? Verily I tell you, it will be better (better?) for Sodom and Gomorrah in the Final Day than for that town.

If it gets worse before it gets better, be of good cheer, Jesus of Nazareth has been there before any of us.

"British social mores have been moving closer and closer to Scandinavian ones over the past few decades..."

In your dreams. Your dreams about what Scandinavia is like. Based mainly on Danish films of the 1960ies and you concept of "sauna".

England in in several respects much more "liberal" but I do remember how I was tortured with queries of "permissive society" back in 1972, when working in London ;=)

I didn't understand what the word meant for quite a while - so I just smiled politely.

I don't believe that TEC can be a part of the AC while Rowan Williams is ABC.

He is hellbent-for-leather to beat us down. Instead of talking about TEC going off on its own, come with us!

Goran: "In your dreams. Your dreams about what Scandinavia is like. Based mainly on Danish films of the 1960ies and you concept of "sauna"."

Goran, I do live in Scandinavia, and spend a good deal of time in Sweden (where we own a Summer-house/ torp, in fact). While of course I defer to your expertise, if not to your bluntness, my admittedly shallow perceptions are based on first-hand experience rather than dreams. I have been there and bought the T-shirt, so to speak.

It has always struck me that bi-lateral conversations between churches have their limitations and that ARCIC should really have become an RC/Anglican /Lutheran dialogue...a lot of contemporary Lutheran theology esp in ,say, Sweden and the US, is less "confessional" than it was, and Lutherans could well bring some deeper theological rigour which might assist the somewhat "erasmian" approach of Anglicans.I have often wondered how much coop there is between Lutherans/Anglicans in Tanzania or Brasil or elsewhere ouside Europe and N America.Does anyone know??

Many Swedes have read Tolkien, admire Winston Churchill, love to visit London and/or the English/Scottish countryside.

Many Brits love Abba (and the musical Mamma Mia), read Swedish crime fiction and have very seldom waged war on us (compared to some other European countries).

So I'm siding with Fr Mark, I believe we're a marriage made in heaven.

(Btw, Swedes are totally charmed when they travel the English countryside and shopkeepers etc. call them "Dear" and "Love".)

Good for you, Swedish Lutheran! Many of us Brits are Scandophiles too.

Though my more serious point was that a society without such blatant gender/ sexuality inequality as formerly, which has become normal recently in the UK, was achieved earlier here in Scandinavia. In that respect, British society has grown closer to Scandinavia (and also the Low Countries) in some important ways. Perhaps having a Church attempting to the minister to the whole nation, which has been necessarily inclusive on that account, rather than perceived as a sectarian divisive force, has helped that process in Scandinavia?

I think that there has also been quite a reaction against top-down hierarchy, government by one's betters, in the UK recently, and that, too, draws us closer to the flatter models of governance practised in Scandinavia. At some point, even church leadership in Britain may take note of this and reform.

60s movies and saunas didn't come into it at all, Göran - not my generation's reference points, I'm afraid!

Dear Fr Mark, your acquaintance with Scandinavia doesn't show. Sweden never had Continental (Roman) misogyny. Women kept their right of inheritance.

But in fact, it's the other way around from what you think. The very few women engaged in business are practically all daughters (heirs) or widows of past owners, just as it was a thousand years ago (witness of the Rune stones).

British (and Continental) business has a much larger representation of women in middle to top management than we do. I understood this (working in London in 1972) to be the effect of two World Wars, when women performed all the tasks hitherto thought of as "male".

In Sweden this is just (perhaps) changing.

"60s movies and saunas didn't come into it at all, Göran"

Then learn.

While the business world remains a conservative pocket in Sweden (as in most countries), I think you're totally misrepresenting the progress already made, Göran. More than 40 percent women in parliament, almost 50 percent in recent governments.

The growing share of fathers who stay home with their newborns (paternal leave) for at least three months will have a profound affect on not only family life, but Swedish society as a whole.

Inequality in society feeds on inequality in the households.

That's the future.

The numbers in Riksdagen, not least in Konstitutionsutskottet, show the relative decline of Parliament since the 19th century...

"Then learn."

Bless you, too, Göran. We all bear with each other.

Link: http://www.thelocal.se/23184/20091110/