Saturday, 15 July 2017

Opinion - 15 July 2017

David Walker ViaMedia.News Speak Clearly After the Tone…

Colin Coward Unadulterated Love Radical Christian inclusion and transformation

Church Times Leader Comment No magic wand

Andrew Lightbown Theore0 Speaking of culture, speaking of tradition

Jamie McLoughlin Liverpool Echo OPINION: The Bishop of Liverpool’s patronage of Pride is HUGE for this city

Peter Selby Church Times Hearing the cries of the abused

Posted by Peter Owen on Saturday, 15 July 2017 at 11:00am BST | TrackBack
You can make a Permalink to this if you like
Categorised as: Opinion

While I appreciate TheoreO's argument, it is disconcerting to read that there are only two sacraments in Anglicanism and not seven as in the Roman and Orthodox Churches. Many Anglicans would disagree. It might surprise Anglicans who have received Absolution, been confirmed, ordained, married, or who have received Unction that none of this was sacramental. They were just pious customs or lovely ceremonies without any grace conferred. Really? Please don't get into the 39 Articles and all that. I realize that this is the view of some evangelicals, but you could at least acknowledge that many Anglicans observe seven sacraments.

Posted by: Richard Grand on Saturday, 15 July 2017 at 2:45pm BST

Richard, I do indeed agree that many Anglicans believe there to be more than the official two sacraments. I would simply suggest that we officially have only two. I would certainly believe my marriage and ordination to be far more than 'pious customs or lovely ceremonies.' I am also happy to hear confessions and I have been to confession from time to time. My main point is that suggesting that any movement re affirming same sex relations can't be done because it would be cause a breach with the RC and Orthodox Churches is a bit rich, in my opinion.

Posted by: Andrew Lightbown on Saturday, 15 July 2017 at 6:44pm BST

Richard Grand, it's true that officially the C of E has only 2 sacraments. That's not to say that grace is not conferred by other means, such as the ordinances you mention. And Anglicans of course are free to call things what they like, within reason, without being thrown out - as we would be in many other denominations. But they can't say it's the position of the church.

Posted by: Janet Fife on Saturday, 15 July 2017 at 8:35pm BST

Whilst the CofE may restrict itself to agreeing on only two sacraments, it must be remembered that the 39 articles are not relevant to all Anglicans. Indeed the canons of the SEC explicitly recognise the sacrament of penance, and others by implication.

Posted by: Jo on Saturday, 15 July 2017 at 9:23pm BST

Agreed that the "official" position of the CofE is that there are two sacraments. However, it would have been more accurate to acknowledge that this is not position of many Anglicans. I can't say for certain, but this may apply only to the CofE. However, I do agree with the argument jay worrying about what the Romans and Orthodox do is ridiculous. We have already dome things that would remove us from being consistent with them (e.g. The ordination of women) and we are better for it. The idea that we would wait for them presumes that we would have something to wait for, while we ignore the people we care for.

Posted by: Adam Armstrong on Saturday, 15 July 2017 at 9:24pm BST

The 39 articles don't, as far as I remember, deny that the other five are in fact sacraments, It simply says 'they are not to be accounted as sacraments of the Gospel.' Which is rather odd since the con evos make a lot of marriage as a divine ordinance.

Posted by: David Emmott on Saturday, 15 July 2017 at 9:30pm BST

Article 25 states

"There are two Sacraments ordained of Christ our Lord in the Gospel, that is to say, Baptism, and the Supper of the Lord.

Those five commonly called Sacraments, that is to say, Confirmation, Penance, Orders, Matrimony, and extreme Unction, are not to be counted for Sacraments of the Gospel"

This does not say that there are only two sacraments, but that only two were ordained by Christ in the Gospel. The other five are still sacraments (at least in common parlance they are) just not sacraments of the gospel. Don't pretty much all churches recognise baptism and communion as special?

I can't see that it follows from Article 25 that there are only two sacraments. Am I wrong? Is it stated elsewhere?

Posted by: T Pott on Saturday, 15 July 2017 at 9:57pm BST

The 39 Articles also commend the Homilies as containing godly and wholesome doctrine, and one of those homilies speaks of the "sacrament of matrimony".

Posted by: Russell Dewhurst on Saturday, 15 July 2017 at 11:21pm BST

I was taught that there are two major "sacraments of the gospel"ie baptism and the Eucharist because there are dominical.The other "five commonly called sacraments" are sacramental you could say, keeping to our formularies, Anglicans should speak not of seven sacraments but we can speak of two plus five!.

Posted by: Perry Butler on Sunday, 16 July 2017 at 7:37am BST

I think the Western Church began to restrict the term sacraments to seven in the high middle ages ( Peter Lombard?).The Orthodox Church has I believe always left it rather vaguer...recognising many "sacramentals"

Posted by: Perry Butler on Sunday, 16 July 2017 at 7:40am BST

Surely the 39 Articles of Religion are of vital importance as they are the only thing that keep Church of England Anglicans united in that nobody believes any of them! However, never underestimate the importance of things people no longer regard as being important.
As for the Bishop of Rome having no jurisdiction in this realm - not so many Sundays ago I attended a High Anglican Church where the intercessor prayed for "Benedict OUR pope". So, it would seem that we must be selective in our interpretation of the sacred 39.

Posted by: Father David on Sunday, 16 July 2017 at 9:04am BST

Peter Selby's piece 'Hearing the Cries' of the Abused is sensitive, wise, and very welcome. Let's hope that he, in turn, is heard by our present bishops, archdeacons, and national and diocesan staff.

Posted by: Janet Fife on Sunday, 16 July 2017 at 9:05am BST

May I respectfully disagree with my namesake that all Anglicans are united in their rejection of the 39 articles. Sydney 'Anglicans' believe in ALL of them which is why they wish to impose their 16th century ideology on the rest of us.

Posted by: FrDavidH on Sunday, 16 July 2017 at 10:42am BST

"Benedict our Pope" indeed! I thought he retired some years ago. In a long life I've come across more than a few ACs who are more Roman than Rome, but this is a new one. Anglican Sedevacantists?

Posted by: cryptogram on Sunday, 16 July 2017 at 10:47am BST

Benedict our Pope? Surely even Anglo-Papalists would be aware that he is not anyone's Pope. Last I looked, the Pope was Francis. Perhaps they have decided to adopt Benedict, since he is more to their taste.

Posted by: Adam Armstrong on Sunday, 16 July 2017 at 12:57pm BST

Bergoglio!!! I meant, of course, "Francis OUR pope". Although, I have it on good authority from someone who was actually there in the mid-1970s at the 12 noon Gentry's Communion Service in Lincoln cathedral, that the Presiding Minister did pray for "George, our king"

Posted by: Father David on Sunday, 16 July 2017 at 1:14pm BST

One would hope and pray that Bishop David was not the only Bishop that listened to what the Synod at York was really saying.
His words give hope that the House of Bishops may find courage to take action in the present time to the mind of Synod, and LGBTI folk. Not let the Archbishops kick it into the long grass of 2020 when one will be retired, and the other played with his brother primates at the Lambeth conference. We still remember the double speak of the ABC at the last Primates meeting.

Fr John Emlyn

Posted by: Fr John E. Harris-White on Sunday, 16 July 2017 at 3:57pm BST

This link isn't working :

Jamie McLoughlin Liverpool Echo OPINION: The Bishop of Liverpool’s patronage of Pride is HUGE for this city

Fixed, ED.

Posted by: Laurie Roberts on Sunday, 16 July 2017 at 9:53pm BST

Apologies - It's so confusing when there are two popes extant. If Francis decides to retire we may even end up with a trinity of popes. Next thing you know the 13th Dr. Who may even be a woman!

Posted by: Father David on Sunday, 16 July 2017 at 10:30pm BST

"I know what you're thinking...Does he have seven shots or only two?" Well to tell you the truth in all this excitement I kinda lost track myself. But being these are 39 articles, and would blow your mind, you've gotta ask yourself one question: 'Do I feel lucky?' Well, do ya, Calvinist punk? ( My apologies to dirty "Cranmer" Harry)

Posted by: Rod Gillis on Monday, 17 July 2017 at 1:35am BST

One by one the honest Bishops of the Church of England are stepping out to support LGBTI folk, in their different ways.
God Bless the Bishops of Manchester and Liverpoool.
Courage to the rest, step out, you will be surprised at your welcome and positive reaction by the people in your diocese.

Fr John Emlyn

Posted by: Fr John E. Harris-White on Monday, 17 July 2017 at 2:24pm BST

I loved the piece on PRIDE in the Liverpool Echo !

Very uplifting for me.

Thanks a lot ED.

Posted by: Laurie Roberts on Monday, 17 July 2017 at 5:30pm BST

Glasgow Cathedral the first (of many)

It will be so lovely for those couples to be married there.

Posted by: Laurie Roberts on Wednesday, 19 July 2017 at 8:25pm BST
Post a comment

Remember personal info?

Please note that comments are limited to 400 words. Comments that are longer than 400 words will not be approved.

Cookies are used to remember your personal information between visits to the site. This information is stored on your computer and used to refill the text boxes on your next visit. Any cookie is deleted if you select 'No'. By ticking 'Yes' you agree to this use of a cookie by this site. No third-party cookies are used, and cookies are not used for analytical, advertising, or other purposes.