Thinking Anglicans

More on Trinidad

Earlier report here.

The BBC Today radio programme interviewed both the Bishop of Trinidad and the Bishop of Chelmsford this morning.
Listen here with Real Audio (5 minutes).

The text released to the press by the Bishop of Chelmsford appears below:

Statement from the Bishop of Chelmsford

I was very sorry to hear that the invitation which had been extended to myself and Lydia, together with a group from the Diocese of Chelmsford to visit Trinidad and Tobago in May this year has been withdrawn by Bishop Calvin Bess.

The links which exist between dioceses across the Communion are a marvellous way in which we can learn from each other the necessary lesson of how to live with diversity and difference of culture and practice whilst sharing a common faith in our Lord Jesus Christ. We remain wholly committed to our link with Trinidad and Tobago, as well as our links with dioceses of our sister churches. We assure them of our love and prayers.

The journey of friendship often encounters times of difficulty and misunderstanding. We do not believe that walking away from the commitments we have made is in the best interests of either diocese, or of the wider communion of which we are a part. We remain committed to challenge and to be challenged by the contributions to the life of the whole Church by our brothers and sisters in Christ around the world.

+John Chelmsford

3 May 2005

The Church of England Newspaper reports this event as Bishop’s West Indies trip cancelled over gay support

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John Bradshawe
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John Bradshawe

I listened to the broadcast, but it struck me that the letter from the six bishops was undermining the ABC, whatever slant they put on it. I’m not surprised, then, that the invitation was withdrawn. All this talk of love and coming together to talk about issues is so much waffle when people defy the church’s teachings and take actions that upset the majority of the communion. Good on the Bishop of Tobago for taking a stand. What else could he do when so many fom his church are threatening to leave if the invitation still held? This is only… Read more »

bls
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bls

Exceedingly tired of hearing this by now. Perhaps if “everybody else” had paid just the slightest attention to Lambeth Resolutions in ’78, ’88, and ’98, that called for dealing with this issue (or this non-issue, that is, according to the above poster), there might have been a different outcome.

And while we’re at it: think “Jeffrey John.” And maybe perhaps we can acknowledge that it is, in fact an issue of homosexuality.

J. C. Fisher
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“All this talk of love and coming together to talk about issues is so much waffle when people defy the [religious authority’s] teachings and take actions that upset the majority of the [religious authority].”

Boy, I bet the apostles wished they had a dinarius for every time they heard that! ;-p

Ian
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Ian

John: Best let it go! The letter from the six bishops seemed a blatant attempt to appear to agreeing with the ABC when in fact it was doing precisely the opposite. The bishop of Tobago had no option but to take the line he did, especially given the threat of schism over there. I think that this big divide has been coming for some time, and the last straw to many was the action taken by Griswold et al over the pond. The homosexual debate is only symptomatic of something much more fundamental. But you’re not going to persuade the… Read more »

Dave
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Dave

Ian wrote: “But you’re not going to persuade….. You will find any argument being twisted or taken out of context…. anyone who adopts a more conservative approach to the Bible and tradition will find themselves in a tiny minority.” Hi Ian, personally I think it is a mistake to not express our views on forums such as TA. It at least shows that conservatives/evangelicals also think and can express their views coherently –within our frame of reference. The real debate is really about assumptions rather than issues, of course. I think we need to keep on showing that Christianity was… Read more »

John Bradshawe
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John Bradshawe

Thanks to Ian and Dave. After those two replies I thought I was on my own here!

I deeply regret divisions, but they were of ECUSA’s making, and also by the bishop of St. Albans, not by the so-called conservatives. It also grieves me that these issues are sidetracking us from our mission to win others for Christ.

Every blessing

John

Christopher Shell
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Christopher Shell

Hi Ian I think youre wrong on several fronts. (1) If someone claims that by virtue of being either liberal, conservative, eclectic or whatever they are equally likely to be a thinking person, one’s answer should be: just demonstrate youre a thinking person full-stop. Politics shouldnt come into it; but even if it did, one’s ability to think would be demonstrated separately from one’s party allegiance. There is no guarantee that a liberal/conservative/eclectic will be more or less thinking than a person from another ‘party’. Their ability to think is demonstrated by their actual thinking, not by their party identity.… Read more »

Kurt
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Kurt

If Ian has problems with posters on this site, he should check out VirtueOnline for a truly vile collection of characters.

Ian
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Ian

Kurt: I haven’t made such a comparison – you may be right, for all I know. So? Christopher: I have had to read your piece several times because, I admit to my shame, I don’t quite understand it! If I have put things badly, I unreservedly apologise. But I cannot help but observe, having read contributions going back a few months, that people who express a conservative view on any issue often get short shrift on this forum, and I was suggesting to John that he’s on to a hiding to nothing if one tries to reason things. John posted… Read more »

John Bradshawe
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John Bradshawe

I was rapidly coming to the same conclusion. But the forum is good inasmuch as it draws attention to publications that one might otherwise have missed – even though they seem to be slanted in their selection.

I have neither the energy nor the inclination to pore through countless past postings because someone writes “Exceedingly tired of hearing this.” Perhaps you are right in saying “Let it go!”

Peace be with you.

J. C. Fisher
Guest

Hello out there to “Planet Conservative Victim”: LGBT people are a small minority. We *know* this. While the percentage of people amidst the Straight-Majority Culture (including Anglicans) who have come to empathize w/ our minority (and *unchosen*) status, is growing all the time (especially among younger age cohorts, Praise God!), it is still rather small . . . especially when you travel outside a major metropolitan area of a developed nation. Can you understand how, well, *twisted* it is for me to hear you posture your (conservative, anti gay-equality) selves as the *minority*? And a persecuted minority at that?? —would… Read more »

Janet Aldens
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Janet Aldens

I lurk rather than contibute. But I must have my say this time, because the only alternative is to simply stop looking at this forum. I’m not sure where I stand on this homosexual thing, and like someone else, I doubt whether that is the root of the problem anyway. I may be a bird-brain, but to me it is all about the struggle for power and preferment, and I sometimes wonder whether the church would not be far more effective in encouraging others to become Christians if we dispensed with 90% of all the Canons, Bishops, Deans, Archbishops and… Read more »

John Bradshawe
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John Bradshawe

J.C.Fisher, your posting addressed to “Planet Conservative Victim” which comes over as quite ungracious. If by any chance this is a reference to me, it should be blatantly obvious that my comment about being in a minority referred to this site, not to membership of the LGBT community. For your information we have gays in our church. We are all sinners and in need of redemption and sanctification. You state “would love to hear a conservative post which actually *tries to persuade* me” For what it is worth, I don’t think anyone is concerned with “persuading” you about anything. No-one… Read more »

David Huff
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David Huff

To all who have recently complained that conservative views are “not welcome” here, it might be a good idea to go read the very first “About this site” post for Thinking Anglicans here: http://www.thinkinganglicans.org.uk/archives/000065.html esp. the 2nd and 3rd paragraphs. Go ahead, I’ll wait… OK, back ? Seems pretty clear to me 🙂 and for those still feeling persecuted, I’ll leave you with two thoughts: 1) If you think *you’re* being persecuted, try being a moderate to progressive Christian commenting on Kendall Harmon’s blog (or 10X worse, the site run by David “Virtue”) 2) As the Rev. Susan Russell has… Read more »

Christopher Shell
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Christopher Shell

Hi Ian- If anyone said they were ‘exceedingly tired of hearing this by now’ put them down as an adherent of the ‘Athenianism heresy’. Athenianism can be expressed thus: It has to be new to be true. The truth is never boring and it is never something we’ve been hearing for years. There is virtue in novelty per se. See Acts 17.21 ‘For all the Athenians and the foreigners who were there spent their time in nothing else but either to tell or to hear some new thing.’ Is the sun cold because it is old? I havent noticed that… Read more »

Ian
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Ian

Christopher and David I am most grateful for your thoughtful comments which I have taken to heart. I approach this web-site in learning mode, anxious to see where there can be a genuine meeting of minds, but perhaps I have been a little intolerant over statements that in my view were clearly wrong or condescending. I don’t think I felt that John was being persecuted – that was a bit strong! And I’m not sure that the fact that another web-site is worse is fair argument! I think it was one particular contributor who got to me. But I must… Read more »

J. C. Fisher
Guest

. . . and yet I keep coming back for more! *g* As I recently posted on my blog, I don’t know whether I’m reviled for the sake of the Gospel (speaking Truth to worldly power), or because I’m a horse’s *ss (I’d like to think the former, but God only knows I have many of the latter such moments!). And yet, it really doesn’t matter: I’d much rather, rightly or wrongly, be trashed to the heavens on this website, than have my membership in the Body of Christ (and my national church’s membership in the wider AC Body of… Read more »