Thinking Anglicans

Washington Post on African attitudes

Two articles on Monday in the Washington Post discuss homosexuality in Africa.

Nigerian Churches Tell West to Practice What It Preached on Gays
includes some quotes from Archbishop Akinola.

A companion piece is Namibia Chips Away at African Taboos on Homosexuality

27
Leave a Reply

avatar
3000
27 Comment threads
0 Thread replies
0 Followers
 
Most reacted comment
Hottest comment thread
12 Comment authors
MerseymikeDaveAugustus MeriwetherMark BeatonMartin Reynolds Recent comment authors
  Subscribe  
newest oldest
Notify of
Martin Reynolds
Guest

We are all engaged in the process of making sure God’s love can be experienced anew in today’s world.
Last night I spoke to a group on the place of homosexual people in the world of faith today.
Behind the lectern were two photographs some 20 feet high projected side by side.
The one showed a smiling bishop embracing his partner after his consecration in America, the other, taken more recently, showed two teenage lads hanging next to each other after their execution in Iran.

Emeka
Guest
Emeka

Thanks Craig for that insightful report. I had commented on TA last week that homsexuals like MAC-AYALLA will find Nigeria very difficult to operate fraternize… and some gay ‘protagonists’ opted to disagree. “Odumuye said that although gay people socialize in private homes and nightclubs, the nation of 130 million has not a single gay bar. One such bar on a beach in Lagos, the nation’s commercial capital, was burned down three years ago — intentionally, he suspects. Other gatherings are raided by police”.
I HOPE THE LEGION FROM THE CHANGING ATTITUDE ARE READING?

Nadine Kwong
Guest
Nadine Kwong

Emeka, if I recall correctly, the question that was put to you at the time — yet you never answered — was how *you* personally *feel* about all that. We are quite convinced that Nigeria is a violent and hostile place when it comes to lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender people; but do you as a Christian approve or disapprove of the way LGBT people are treated in Nigeria? And what have you actually done in the past or are doing now to implement your approval or disapproval, i.e., to walk your talk? Not one of “THE LEGION FROM THE… Read more »

J. C. Fisher
Guest

Oh look: “Emeka” is back, sounding ominously threatening. >:-(

Tell me, Emeka: who’s *your* savior? The Suffering Servant? The lamb who was slain? The Prince of Peace? The one who ate and drank with those *thought by the self-righteous* to be the worst of sinners?

… or the *bully* of the beach (“in Lagos”)?

[re “THE LEGION FROM THE CHANGING ATTITUDE”: that’s your projection, talking. The “legion” you *should* condemn is the demonic army of *the violently intolerant*!]

Emeka
Guest
Emeka

Nadine, Agreed, Believers need to intercede for those who are delibrately perverting the word of God. This perversion is at the core of all Changing Attitude stands for. I will not be the first to cast stone on them… yet we have been reminded that at perilious moments like now ‘evil will (surely) slay the wicked’. “The word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.” (1 Cor 1:18) PRAY, My brother, MAC-IYALLA need to be rescued from the stranglehold of wickedness… anyone who encourages… Read more »

Dan Berger
Guest
Dan Berger

This is a bit off-topic, but in the second article did you notice that women were “raped” but a boy was forced onto a desk for “sex”? Sounds like rape to me. Seems a bit inconsistent.

Just an observation.

J. C. Fisher
Guest

The only “stranglehold” that Davis Mac-Iyalla has found is the *loving embrace* of the Triune God.

Emeka, I pray that you will someday realize that Changing Attitude’s God-in-Christ is your God, too.

Göran Koch-Swahne
Guest

The question to be put to brother Emeka here, is of course, which translation he is reading?

A good one, or a bad one?

Mark Beaton
Guest
Mark Beaton

#1: according to The Times Online, the two teenagers in Iran were hanged for raping a 13 year old boy at knifepoint.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,251-1703858,00.html

I don’t know the truth of the matter, but no situation is as simple as a projected picture.

Alan Harrison
Guest
Alan Harrison

Dan Berger wrote: “This is a bit off-topic, but in the second article did you notice that women were “raped” but a boy was forced onto a desk for “sex”? Sounds like rape to me. Seems a bit inconsistent.” It may reflect the legal situation with which the author is familiar. Here in Britain, the concept of rape of a male has only recently been recognised by law. Forcible buggery was already punishable, but the charge was not rape. In the USA, I understand that unlawful sexual intercourse (the British term) with a person beneath the age of consent is… Read more »

Martin Reynolds
Guest

The first official reports on the execution carried no such allegations. We had these translated from Farsi and I will send copies to any who wish to read them. Later reports included the allegations mentioned above and more (though the facts did not agree) but when contacted the boys’ lawyer knew nothing of them.

Merseymike
Guest
Merseymike

According to the Times, the teenagers were also tortured in order to bring forward confessions – something all too familiar in Iran.

Or are conservative fundamentalist Christians making alliances with their Islamic fundie brethren ?

Göran Koch-Swahne
Guest

I wonder what Mr Beaton is trying to say.
Is he pro capital punishment or is he against lynchings?

Mark Beaton
Guest
Mark Beaton

Goran, I am wholly against lynchings, nor do I support the death penalty for rape (or generally). My point was simply that any news coming out of Iran won’t be clear or simple. I think the most recent words of the president of Iran bear this out. Merseymike, I don’t know any of ‘conservative fundamentalist Christians’ who consider ‘Islamic fundies’ as their ‘brethren’. Quite the converse. Surely you know what Franklin Graham and Jerry Falwell have said about Islam and Muhammad? Conservative Christians are often called ‘Islamophobic’ and probably don’t mind the term. I don’t; the more I know about… Read more »

Göran Koch-Swahne
Guest

Mr Beaton
There does not seem to have been any “rape” in this case. Unless you choose to believe a dictatorship?

But I still wonder what you can mean, putting this strange remark in this thread?

And as to the identity of political Islam in the Arab world to political Calivinism in the USA, I suggest that you have a closer look at the link you provided last week about Theonomy in the USA.
http://the-highway.com/cgi-bin/hse/HomepageSearchEngine.cgi?terms=theonomy&and=on&cat=1&submit=Search&title=on&text=on&hits=10&sort=hits

Simon Sarmiento
Guest

I am deleting several comments in this thread which contain nothing but personal attacks on other commenters. Please refrain from further comments of this kind. Discussing the subject of the original blog item is much better.

Mark Beaton
Guest
Mark Beaton

Goran (don’t stand on Swedish formality, call me Mark!), there was nothing ‘strange’ about my remark. I simply commented that the hanging of the boys *might not be as simple a matter as the first posting suggested. Do you or anyone know that the alleged rape of the boy didn’t happen? No, of course not, and neither do I – not that I agree with hanging for rape (or most anything) either. Islamic culture does have an extreme sense of honor and shame. I am sure you know that sharia mandates the death penalty for all kinds of sexual misconduct,… Read more »

Göran Koch-Swahne
Guest

Mark Beaton wrote: “the hanging of the boys *might not be as simple a matter as the first posting suggested.”

The first posting did not suggest anything on the “matter” of this hanging.

That is why I (still) wonder what you are trying to say.

Mark Beaton
Guest
Mark Beaton

Goran, Martin Reynolds has, I believe, understood my point and I’ve explained it in the post above yours. But for the avoidance of doubt: I took the presentation of the picture of the boys as being intended to be an illustration of extreme legal hostility to *consensual homosexual behavior* in an Islamic country. And maybe it was; after all, they stone adulterous women in sharia-ruled parts of rural Iran, Afghanistan, Nigeria etc. Or maybe it wasn’t: the authorities claim the boys were hanged not for consensual sex with each other but for another offense, the abduction and rape of a… Read more »

Simon Sarmiento
Guest

I am deleting yet another comment.

And I have one of my own: I think Mark is mistaken in thinking that Martin supports his viewpoint. I am confident that Martin, like me, believes these boys were executed merely for being homosexuals. And that the charges of rape etc. were invented afterwards.

Merseymike
Guest
Merseymike

Surely the point is that it is wrong to persecute and criminalise someone for being gay or having gay sexual encounters?

I’m not convinced that all conservatives believe this. I think some would rather recriminalise my relationship.

Obviously that will not happen, but it does demonstrate that some conservatives may actually have more sympathy with the approach of the fundamentalist Muslim in wishing to impose legal sanction within civil society than the liberal European approach.

Martin Reynolds
Guest

Thank you Simon, you are correct. As I have already posted, we took considerable care to research this matter as carefully as possible. When the original reports were followed by a series of allegations, inquiries were made with the boys’ defense attorney who said they were unknown to him. We took this as fairly convincing evidence that such reports were spurious. What is perhaps most convincing are the comments from one of the boys reported by the “official” Iranian press agency that first carried the story. In an interview conducted as the lads were taken to the scaffold, the 17… Read more »

Merseymike
Guest
Merseymike

Indeed, Martin. And it really does sum up the very deep and ingrained anti-gay hatred and homophobia of conservative Christian leaders in some of these countries.

How can we be in communion with such people?

Mark Beaton
Guest
Mark Beaton

Simon, let me clarify what I was saying. I said I thought Martin Reynolds *understood what I was saying (i.e., that the facts of this case are unclear), not that he *supported it. If the rape story was in fact fabricated, as you say, I wouldn’t be at all surprised, that being Iran But again, as Martin says, ‘it is very difficult to find out the truth of any court case there.’
In any case, I should make this clear: I think the execution of children is horrible, and I pray for the parents in their immense grief.

Augustus Meriwether
Guest

“…the hanging of the boys *might not be as simple a matter…”

look at what we are arguing the finer points of.

I’m not sure what disturbs me more…

Dave
Guest
Dave

.. I’m not very happy with trying to have discussions on a moral issue in the context of Iranian “Justice” !! See the Human rights Watch report: http://www.hrw.org/un/chr59/iran.htm

Few of us would support the death penalty, even for real rape. But aren’t some folk here in danger of being accused of “automaticaly” supporting anyone who is gay ? Would they equally inquire into the background and veracity of a conviction of two teenagers hung for raping a girl ??

Merseymike
Guest
Merseymike

No, Dave, but I think I’m capable of working out what a trumped up accusation is as opposed to something genuine.

The point is that the so-called rape accusation was only mentioned after the event, because it had nothing to do with the killing.

But, then, your approach wouldn’t have anything to do with your negative attitudes, of course…