Thinking Anglicans

Egypt: British press reports

The Times Ruth Gledhill Williams apologises to ‘cultural captives’
Telegraph Jonathan Petre Church faces crisis over gay policies
Guardian Stephen Bates and Mark Honigsbaum Anglican traditionalists warn church on gay rights

Another press report, not British, is in Christianity Today and is by Timothy C. Morgan Anglicans ‘Severely Wounded’. This contains more information not reported elsewhere.

And also there is this press release from the Province of Nigeria: GLOBAL SOUTH ANGLICAN CHURCHES COME OF AGE

Subscribe
Notify of
guest
37 Comments
Oldest
Newest
Inline Feedbacks
View all comments
John
John
15 years ago

It is seeming to me that the split is inevitable because there is no willingness for two way dialogue. Am I losing hope prematurely?

John Henry
John Henry
15 years ago

Sadly, the split is inevitable, inasmuch as the Global South (GS) and their North American Network “staffers” (to avoid the offensive term “handlers”) are not willing to accept diversity in Biblical interpretation. In their GS communique they also made it clear that GS candidates for ordination are to be trained in GS (strictly orthodox) theological colleges and not in North American, Canadian and British institutions which honor the principles of academic freedom and diversity in Biblical interpretation. Their idea of true orthodox Anglicanism is a confessional church with a literalist – not historical – interpretation of defining documents: the Bible,… Read more »

Mark Beaton
Mark Beaton
15 years ago

John Henry, it’s incredibly expensive to train Asian and African clergy in the US and England and it only encourages a colonial mindset of dependency. Much better – and cheaper – for people who will minister in their own cultures to train there.
The servant church of the North and West can stil send out teachers (and books) to colleges like Bishop Tucker in Mukono or the new one being built in Kigali.

Kurt
Kurt
15 years ago

“Obviously, the Anglican provinces in the Northern Hemisphere are not going to reverse course and throw into the waste bin two hundred and fifty years of Biblical and theological scholarship, beginning with the Age of the Enlightenment through the post-Modern era.”–John Henry

Amen!!!

Göran Koch-Swahne
15 years ago

This Christianity Today article is really sensational, if true…

David Huff
David Huff
15 years ago

I’d be quite careful about anything written in _Christianity Today_. They are extremely conservative, evangelical, and biblically literalist in their stance, and have a long and well known antipathy towards the Episcopal Church. Not saying they’d straight out lie or anything, but there will be a definite “spin” on anything they report.

A more well-rounded and less biased source for general religious news in the U.S. would come from sources like the _Christian Century_.

steven
steven
15 years ago

John:

Why dialog when there are no grounds for compromise? One side or the other must give up ground and compromise its ideals in order to come to an agreement–and neither is willing to do so. So, why delay the inevitable when it only leads to more bad feelings and less Christ-like actions. Let us divide while we still have some hope of doing so in an honorable and decent manner.

Steven

Merseymike
Merseymike
15 years ago

I agree with Steven. I think this view is starting to be more widely accepted. I do hope so. I think the outcome will be better for all of us.

J. C. Fisher
15 years ago

“A new organization, SPREAD (the Society for the Propagation of Reformed Evangelical Anglican Doctrine)” If any liberal came up w/ *this*, they would be accused of (tasteless) hyperbole! (But whatever “CT” sez, I guess . . . spread it! ;-p) But if true, this really says it all: “after 100 pages of analysis, the SPREAD paper advises: ‘Provinces and bishops who leave the Anglican Communion should form an association of like-minded churches'” Behold, the “Protestant Principle” triumphant (after all, if the deletion of “Protestant” from “ECUSA” is to be held against us, I guess that’s what it’s all about): the… Read more »

Göran Koch-Swahne
15 years ago

The statment of the Church of Nigeria read: “The boundary of family identity ends within the boundary of the authentic Word of God.”

To the Church Christ is the Word of God.

Peter
Peter
15 years ago

“Obviously, the Anglican provinces in the Northern Hemisphere are not going to reverse course and throw into the waste bin two hundred and fifty years of Biblical and theological scholarship, beginning with the Age of the Enlightenment through the post-Modern era.”–John Henry

Clearly JH and I differ on where things began to go wrong.

Tunde
Tunde
15 years ago

Yes Goran, Christ as revealed in the Scriptures is the word of God. I think somewhere therein, while his mother and brothers were looking for him, he gave more attention to strangers listening to his words and referred to those obedient to God as his family. May we all belong to that family of love and obedience.

badman
badman
15 years ago

Christianity Today says “Some [conservatives] worry waiting another 18 months plays into the hands of liberals who, conservatives say, have proven brilliantly skillful in playing “the long game” of wearing down their opposition with meetings and dialogue.”

Oh no! Meetings and dialogue are wearing down opposition! How dreadful! How Christian!

I hope it’s true.

Dr Abigail Ann Young
15 years ago

Tunde, When you write “Christ as revealed in the Scriptures is the word of God”, you put your finger on a main point of disagreement. Christ is indeed the Word of God and the scriptures are a prime source of information about Him and His saving work and his teaching. But He is also revealed in the continuance of His saving work in the on-going work of the Holy Spirit, who guides us into all Truth, so be we are willing to listen and hear. But the static written word of God in Scripture cannot be the final word of… Read more »

Mark Beaton
Mark Beaton
15 years ago

‘But we cannot prejudge the results of this testing by saying, “The Bible says” or “Lambeth 1.10 says” — the whole point is that we cannot agree on what the Bible says and what it means on this point.’

Actually, the great majority of the Church, including its ancient, Greek speaking section, have been clear from the beginning about its consentient teaching on homosexuality. Only a modern minority has expressed doubts, while someone like Walter Wink dissents from the teaching but doesn’t dispute what the Bible means.

steven
steven
15 years ago

Abigail: I think you’re preaching to the wrong choir. Besides, what’s the point? The liberal side has already heard and accepted all of this. The conservative side has already heard and rejected it. We all argue past each other because neither side has any interest in, or intention of, changing their underlying viewpoints. If you think this is wrong, then I would suggest that you provide us all a good example by changing your own first. Once you have become a conservative and an expositor of the conservative viewpoint, I will give some additional thought to the liberal point of… Read more »

John Henry
John Henry
15 years ago

I fully concur with Dr. Abigail Ann Young. Her comments are worthy of reflection. She is saying in her own words what Richard Hooker said in Of the Laws of Ecclesiastical Polity (1553-1600) about the process of discernment of the meaning of Scripture by the Body of Christ, the Church. Abp. Rowan Williams really captured and communicated very well what Hooker, one of the “fathers” of Anglicanism, said about Scripture and the need for discernment in his 26 October 2005 lecture at the Temple Church, London. To quote Dr. Williams summarizing Hooker: “Christian salvation comes from incorporation into the life… Read more »

Merseymike
Merseymike
15 years ago

Yes, Steven, as you know, I agree. What is so concerning, though, is that unless we deal with these differences swiftly – and that means either agreeing to live with each others differ5ences and giving the different views parity , or a split – we will continue as we are. I would seriously like to ask those who want to communion to remain together two questions. 1. Do you accept that the respective ‘sides’ are not going to change their opinion? 2. Do you think it is reasonable or possible to continue as we are when there is so clearly… Read more »

Göran Koch-Swahne
15 years ago

Dear English speaking, native, Calvinist but not wholly Anglican, somewhat condescending Mr Beaton, much into Bible translations but not found in Google, wrote: “Actually, the great majority of the Church, including its ancient, Greek speaking section, have been clear from the beginning about its consentient teaching on homosexuality. Only a modern minority has expressed doubts, while someone like Walter Wink dissents from the teaching but doesn’t dispute what the Bible means.” No Mr Beaton, the consensus you portray is a Myth. The invention of Sodomy is 2nd Millennium and ever mutating, new anti-gay “words” having been invented post Bailey 1955… Read more »

Mark Beaton
Mark Beaton
15 years ago

Brother Goran, it seems you have little sense of irony, so I won’t comment on your adjectives for me. Your statement that ‘malakoi’ in 1 Cor 6.9 was understood (by whom?) 1000 years ago to mean ‘masturbators’ is, even if it is true, irrelevant, as we’re talking about how the word was used 2000 years ago: synchronic rather than diachronic linguistics. By apt way of comparison, you surely know that the word ‘gay’ didn’t mean homosexual in English (native or any variety) even 80 years ago. The ancient meaning of the word as denoting ‘effeminate, passive homosexuals’ is affirmed by… Read more »

Kurt
Kurt
15 years ago

Goran, you are wonderful! You are another reason to choose the Church of Sweden over the Church of Nigeria any day of the week!

Best regards from Brooklyn, NY USA.

David Huff
David Huff
15 years ago

Göran wrote: “Not the Church Catholic, not East and West, not 2000 years, not Tradition, not Reason, but a late 20th century social politics from the USA.” Which is really the core of the problem WRT the issue with our GLBT brothers and sisters – a “perfect storm” of poor translations, poor understanding of the Mediterranean cultures of the 1st cent CE, and an extremist, conservative socio-political movement in the modern day West. The fact that this horrid combination is repeatedly hammered on as an “orthodox” viewpoint quite frankly sickens me. Could there *be* a more Orwellian twisting of “orthodox”… Read more »

Tunde
Tunde
15 years ago

Dr. Abigail, if I buy your idea, I’d be in a fix for not considering same from my Islamic friends who believe Mohammed was part of the ongoing revelations. Yes, time will tell. Sadly though, either way, many would have been led astray. Permit me to make the simple end result test I do with my Islamic friends. Put yourself on each side of the disagreement and imagine at the end you were wrong! What do you stand to lose? Are you prepared to forsake that? Sure you now understand why we expect leaders to speak the truth they believe… Read more »

Dave
Dave
15 years ago

Dear Göran, Your assertion that “the word “malakoì” …. was re-defined to essentialist catamita: “passive gay man”, through Pater Zerwick’s Analysis philologica novi testamenti graecae of 1966….” is not historically accurate since in my RSV (1959 Edition) the words malakoi and arsenakoi were already translated together as “homosexuals” in the 1 Cor 6.9 list of unrighteous people who will not inherit the kingdom without cleansing. So you assertion that: “what for a 1000 years had been an (heterosexual) a c t i v i t y for all, in 1966 was changed into a new essentialist symmetrical i d e… Read more »

Dr Abigail Ann Young
15 years ago

Tunde, thanks for your reply. Of course you are right — the argument for progressive revelation is very similar to the argument made by Muslims and (I think also) followers of Bahaii about new, supplanting, revelations. But here we have not only the tests proposed in Deuteronomy and in Acts for judging such claims but also the argument of continuity. The type of progressive revelation for which I am arguing involves the kind of re-thinking that one sees in the Prophets vis-a-vis the Torah, but not absolute contradiction. If Mohammed was a greater prophet than Jesus that absolutely contradicts most… Read more »

Göran Koch-Swahne
15 years ago

Another interesting post from Mr Beaton. Miss Turner and Professor Gagnon cannot possibly affirm “the ancient meaning of the word”. Only Ancient texts can – if we manage to read them without our own late cultural lenses ;=) “Plenty of others”. Indeed. Most every scholar seems to have his or her private interpretation. This should be cause for some concern. It seriously undermines the idea that the late 20th century concept of “homosexuals” may at all be in the Good Book. So yes, indeed, what does this tell us of the sociology of knowledge? Inbreeding, anyone? Now, apart from creative… Read more »

Göran Koch-Swahne
15 years ago

Dear Dave, The conflationary trick of the RSV of 1947 is “only” an example amongst many of how Dynamic Equivalence translations are made; changing two d i f f e r e n t words into one new modern c o n c e p t. But it is Pater Zerwick’s s y m m e t r y of 1966 that is important. Because this reflects the new modern, that is post industrialization, essentialist paradigm. Before the 19th century, there was one spieces: Man; comprised of men, women, priests and children. The former wore hat and sword, the latter… Read more »

Tobias S Haller BSG
15 years ago

I am not entirely sure that the meaning of “arsenokoitai” is all that clear. For instance, the common attempt is to derive it from Lev 18:22 on the basis that the two root words in this portmanteau come together. But they don’t come together grammatically; they are in two different phrases. The verse in question actually refers to “koiten gunaikos” (bedding of a woman, so to speak). If you want to find a grammatically (and lexically and syntactically) compelling source for “arsenokoitai” I would suggest a better selection of verses is Numbers 31:17,18,35; where you actually have “koiten arsenos /… Read more »

Dave
Dave
15 years ago

Göran said: “the word “malakoì” …. was re-defined to essentialist catamita: “passive gay man”, through Pater Zerwick’s Analysis philologica novi testamenti graecae of 1966….” (rather than “men who masturbate”). Dave said: “[this] is not historically accurate since in my RSV (1959 Edition) the words malakoi and arsenakoi were already translated together as “homosexuals”. Dear Göran, Just to rub it in, my King James Version translates malakoi as “effeminate” (“made like woman”)… not far off the concept of a “passive gay man”… and 1611 is well before 1966 ! And nothing to do with masturbation… Fancy theories burnished with eloquence do… Read more »

Göran Koch-Swahne
15 years ago

Dear Dave,

I have checked most carefully. There are of course still facts I haven’t found. However, King James Version is not among those.

We have been through this before, I belive, what the people behind KJV in 1611 meant by “effeminate” is not what you, or anybody else, spontaneously would connote with “women”, after the radical upheaval of “gender” in the 19th century revolution from pre-modernity to modernity.

Do read my previous post again!

Tunde
Tunde
15 years ago

Thanks Abigail, You are right, there should be room for disagreements.

Wished you still consider what you stand to lose if wrong. If I am wrong, I stand to lose an earthly lifetime of ‘enjoying’ whatever my flesh wants me to and risk a scolding for telling gay folks they need repentance.

Merseymike
Merseymike
15 years ago

Massively away from the concept of a ‘passive gay man’ – which as a concept didnt exist in biblical times. What did exist was the rite-of-passage of pederastic extra-marital same-sex activity, carried out by men who wouldn’t have had a clue what the concept of ‘gay’ meant! Which is why trying to find anything useful from the Bible on this subject is about as likely as finding instructions as to how to fly a helicopter or boot a computer. It’s about time liberals said this loud and clear – that the Bible needs to be deconstructed and recognised for its… Read more »

Göran Koch-Swahne
15 years ago

And the scars to your soul, Tunde? And to those of others?

Tobias S Haller BSG
15 years ago

Tunde, if you are wrong you risk being placed among the Pharisees who while not entering heaven prevented others from doing so. How many people are turned from God by the language of judgment, rather than brought to Christ? If those who “enjoy” the flesh are wrong, as you say, those who are in Christ will be forgiven, for they “loved much.” For what it is worth, I forgive you your attitude, even though you do not repent of it. I trust and hope and believe that God will forgive all who seek to serve him, even when they are… Read more »

John Henry
John Henry
15 years ago

We need to get back to the ancient sources to determine what MALAKOI and ARSENOKOITAI (1 Cor.6:9-10) meant during the first century AD and in the life of the early Church. There is no consensus on MALIKOI, as shown by a quick reference to Liddell & Scott’s Greek-English Lexicon, ed. Stuart Jones & McKenzie (1968). The Lexicon also refers to males with high-pitched voices. That could be castrati, eunuchs (although the Gk NT consistently uses EUNOUCHOI-Mt. 19:12, Acts 8:27). Given the fact that women didn’t perform as actresses in feminine roles in Greek and Latin plays, and their roles were… Read more »

Göran Koch-Swahne
15 years ago

John Henry wrote: “We need to get back to the ancient sources to determine what MALAKOI and ARSENOKOITAI (1 Cor.6:9-10) meant during the first century AD and in the life of the early Church.” Yes we do. And I think you are quite right that it is useful to look at the first translations, such as the Vetus latina from 2nd century North Africa – nothing to do with St Jerome’s tranlation of the Psalms, Job and the Gospels 250 years later, nor the 12th century Parisian pro mandatory celibacy Versio vulgata. Liddell & Scott also, is much to anachronistic.… Read more »

Priscilla Turner
14 years ago

Some people posting here know more about biblical language and interpretation than others.

http://www.nwnet.org/~prisca/Brief.htm

is a place to start.

A quick glance at Ez. 16:28 in Hebrew and Greek is quite enlightening. The Hebrew of Ezekiel was first rendered into Greek somewhere between 150 and 50 BC.

37
0
Would love your thoughts, please comment.x
()
x