Thinking Anglicans

Changing Attitude on the Nigerian charges

Changing Attitude has today published a web page concerning Mr Davis MacIyalla, Director of Changing Attitude Network (Nigeria).

This page contains a number of photographs of Mr MacIyalla in earlier years at various church events, a photograph taken at the recent CAN meeting, and a detailed analysis of the many charges against Mr MacIyalla made by an official of the Church of Nigeria, including those contained in this press release.

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RMF
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RMF

Well done, CA. If anyone is a fraudster it’s Canon Popoola and those who supported this baseless attack on this man and his group. Interesting how until proof of his outrageous charges was demanded, Popoola was more than willing to post his slanders repeatedly here and on other sites and even on ACNS, but now, he cannot be bothered to so much as provide one iota of proof for anything at all. Since he works closely with Akinola I can only surmise that he approved of all of it. I too await a simple answer on how Popoola could have… Read more »

Tim
Guest

Coo. While I hadn’t followed these happenings in any detail, that page has the potential to make things quite plain, that a judge with some actual evidence could decide one way or another. That’s not the only angle from which to see it, though: I can see where Paul was coming from in 1 Cor. 6:1-8, too; why should we need the world’s lawyers to fight battles within the Church? Where’s the sense of unity in this? Discussion and mediation are two things, but accusations and legalism are quite different. And to think those of us watching UK terrestrial television… Read more »

Brian
Guest

Thanks for keeping an eye on this question. Sad that the Nigerian church fights its battles with personal attacks rather than reasoned discussion. Changing Attitude Nigeria is to be congratulated for its courage.

Dave
Guest
Dave

It’s a pity that a neutral inquirer can’t be found to investigate the facts, rather than CA and ACNS incurring the cost and time of a court action.

But is anyone left in the middle who both sides would trust to arbitrate ? 🙁

Dave
Guest
Dave

… at least the NY Times reporters should be able to confirm the 800 people present and the nature of the Meeting. And Davis’ membership card can be corroborated – if Nigeria check the relevant page of St Phillip’s church’s membership roll ?

Merseymike
Guest
Merseymike

Why should there be any need to do so, Dave? Are the Nigerian Church so frightened ?

John Henry
Guest
John Henry

Every day I get more and more disgusted with the actions of Anglican African bishops and their collaborators like Canon Popoola. They just don’t practise what they preach – Christian love and KOINONIA. There are the ‘pirates’ among them taking charge, under the guise of biblical orthodoxy, of disaffected Episcopal parishes, pitting parishioners and their clergy against their legitimate territorial bishops. They presume to override ECUSA’s disciplinary canons when applied by duly elected bishops and standing committees to so-called Episcopal clergy who declare themselves out of communion with their own bishops on very spurious grounds, such as Bishop XYZ has… Read more »

augustus meriwether
Guest

Well, there isn’t any need for any court action. All that is necessary is for Canon Popoola and the office of the Primate of all Nigeria (AC) to publish another press release of equal prominence which apologizes without reservation and retracts all the slanders and allegations they have made and for them to cease all attempts to harass or defame Davis and his colleagues. In light of all that has gone before, and the evidence before our eyes on the CA site, I can’t see that it is possible for the Church of Nigeria to maintain any credibility or honour… Read more »

Tunde
Guest
Tunde

I am being pushed real hard. Hope I can resist a little longer. Meanwhile waiting for the publication of the sack letter. One of the three must be lying; A CofE priest, an ‘Otukpo knight’ or a Nigerian bishop.

Tunde
Guest
Tunde

By the way all knights have certificates. Please send some money to Davis so he can also scan that for the CA website.

badman
Guest
badman

Tunde, the allegation which YOU published on the Anglican Communion News Service at http://www.aco.org/acns/digest/index.cfm?years=2006&months=1&article=531&pos=#531 was that the meeting of Changing Attitude Nigeria never took place. Do you now withdraw that allegation? If not, how do you refute the evidence that it did?

I think you should take responsibility for your own statements and not try and divert attention onto those of other people.

Colin Coward
Guest

As I predicted, Canon Popoola would not be able to stay aloof from this discussion. The accusations made were too serious, and as a result, so will be the implications for the Nigerian Church and the ability of the Anglican Communion to address homosexuality in a mature, reflective, thoughtful way as requested by the Archbishop of Canterbury. Davis has scanned and sent documents to us at his own expense. The implication that we are paying for everything, and still being taken for a ride, is unworthy of a senior Christian priest. It isn’t the responsibility of Davis to provide more… Read more »

John-Francis
Guest
John-Francis

I am amazed and concerned by Canon Popoola’s postings, especially his request that money be sent to Davis. This is the man who told the world that Davis was a fraudster and now HE is asking us to send him money …

I had to read the message twice to make sure that’s what he was saying. As this seems to be taking on an even more sinister dimension I agree with the comment made that an independent enquiry needs to be made, if that were possible.

John-Francis

RMF
Guest
RMF

CA is much more charitable in its assessment of Popoola and the Nigerian church than I. For that, it is to be commended. It has demonstrated true Christian charity and fairness. Prior to this last shameful and further libelous post, Popoola urged CA’s “gay lawyer” to file papers if they wanted proof. Prior to that the Church in Nigeria through Popoola’s boss, insisted there were no gay Nigerians and said gay/lesbian/bisexual affections were like bestiality. Why should anything they say on this matter be believed? Their methods are lies, corruption, and attacks, on some of the most vulnerable amongst them…… Read more »

Peter
Guest
Peter

Colin, badman etc.
Where are the 800 participants? or the 2000 for that matter? All we have seen so far could be from any kind of small private event with 20 or so participants. There is no independent eyewitness to the claimed numbers. If they are ridiculously exaggerated why should we believe Davis claimed context of the event?

RMF
Guest
RMF

John Henry said, “There are enough issues in Africa with which African bishops ought to concern themselves rather than create division among U.S. Episcopalians. How about issues of genocide – the abuse of women, the AIDS pandemic due to extra-marital sex?” Why would these church men, and I use the term loosely, be interested in working on these issues, which would actually require engagement with people in their own countries who they refuse to admit even exist or have any claim to justice or dignity? They’d much rather style themselves as church jet setters who to do the “work” of… Read more »

Leonardo Ricardo
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Leonardo Ricardo

I believe Davis needs our help. He may need more suggestions and ideas on how best to continue forward and carry the GOODNEWS message of “inclusiveness” and TRUTH at the Nigerian Anglican Church. Akinola and accomplices have little sense of reality, basic decency toward or understanding of the WHOLE composition of diverse membership that makes up many of our/his Anglican families and parishes. Davis is dealing with liars, schemers and frightened/dangerous thugs in OUR church in Nigeria. What help guidance or solace can we offer? Is his life being threatened daily? Are you being intimidated/molested Davis? Are you O.K.? Davis,… Read more »

Brenda
Guest
Brenda

Tunde Stop this obfuscation! In English law it the accuser who must provide proof, not the accused. The burden of proof lies with you not with Davis or Changing Attitude. You have made defamatory statements about Davis and Changing Attitude – either provide your evidence or withdraw your allegations publicly. I have lived and worked in west Africa; from experience at the British High Commisison in Abuja, I know the difficulties of communication and of checking official records in Nigeria. You might like to withdraw your grandiose claims about checking with every parish and with every Anglican priest. You will… Read more »

Tom
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Tom

Why is this blog so fixated on Nigeria? Other categories barely get a yawn, but post something about Nigeria and the fur starts to fly.

J. C. Fisher
Guest

“I am being pushed real hard. Hope I can resist a little longer.”

The way that LGBT people are “pushed” (around), just for being who they are, in Nigeria? I think not, Tunde. 🙁

[NB to John-Henry— “Please send some money to Davis”: I believe the canon is being sarcastic.

NB to Tom— As we North American Anglicans are frequently informed, Nigeria is the second-largest Church in the AC (after the CofE), and is being held up as a model. I think observing the Nigerian Church’s Christian charity-in-action bears some *careful consideration*, wouldn’t you agree? :-/]

Rob Hall
Guest
Rob Hall

Tunde, given your and Archbishop Akinola’s willingness to loudly speak without evidence about your fellow Anglicans, how about taking action to help the people of Lake Malawi and Zimbabwe who are “being pushed real hard” by their bishops? The evidence of injustices committed against these Anglicans by Archbishop Malango and Bishop Kunonga is credible, extensively documented and in the public domain. As Andrew Carey commented in a constructive post on the most recent ‘Zimbabwe: the case of Nolbert Kunonga’ thread, “some risk-taking leadership is going to have to come from key people.” He helpfully indicated the Council of Anglican Provinces… Read more »

Göran Koch-Swahne
Guest

Tom wrote: “Why is this blog so fixated on Nigeria? Other categories barely get a yawn, but post something about Nigeria and the fur starts to fly.”

Hm… a Pseudonym in denial! Is that what they call Limbo?

Tom
Guest
Tom

NB to J.C.: No, I don’t actually. There’s way too much dysfunction in North America to contend with that we’ve no business pointing fingers at Nigeria.

Martin Reynolds
Guest

Dave asks why Nigeria attracts such interest on this blog. There is also the suggestion that TA readers are hardly interested in the rest. Well that’s clearly not so from reviewing the archives, but it is worth commenting that many TA readers come here for information and resources rather than for a chinwag. On a general level things Nigerian have a particular significance for the worldwide Anglican Communion at this time. Peter Akinola is outspoken, and now presides over the new Global South Anglican Communion. Through what he says and does we are able to see the drama of schism… Read more »

David Chillman
Guest
David Chillman

I think that one reason why the “Nigerian Matter” is gaining so much attention here is because of ++Akinola’s (self-proclaimed?) position as spokesman for the Global South. Conservative evangelicals have (for reasons that still elude me) made the issue of homosexuality THE defining issue. Among those leading the way has been ++Akinola. So the issues concerning homosexual Christians in Nigeria ARE of immense importance to Anglicans across the world. Equally, the question of whether or not Akinola and his associates have lied or deliberately deceived raises enormous questions about his basic credibility. To put it bluntly, he can’t claim to… Read more »

J. C. Fisher
Guest

Strange, Tom: that you would translate “careful consideration of a model” as “pointing fingers.”

North American Anglicanism is “dysfunctional”, compared to what? The Righteousness of God? (Then, emphatically, WE ARE!) Or compared to other churches of the AC, some of whom seem determined (regardless of their own problems) to run our church for us?

Dysfunction is as dysfunction does, and returning to the topic of *this* thread… :-/

Colin Coward
Guest

I was sent a text yesterday by Davis saying he had heard a news report that the Nigerian Government was proposing 5 years in prison for gays and lesbians if caught. I was phoned early this morning by a BBC World Service researcher trying to reach Davis for an interview. He said the Nigerian Government has announced that it is proposing to introduce legislation banning the possibility of gay marriage in Nigeria. I’ve Googled for the story with no success. Does anyone have more information? The proposed legislation must be a reaction to our Civil Partnership law, but two more… Read more »

Andrew Carey
Guest
Andrew Carey

David and Martin,

So Archbishop Akinola’s strings are being pulled by Sydney. The reason for this is presumably either 1. Africans can’t think for themselves or 2. Africans are too nice to have views that you personally find distasteful.

At best there’s a whole load of unreality behind what you’re suggesting.

Andrew

Merseymike
Guest
Merseymike

Or perhaps they are a little less naive, Andrew. It gives Sydney credibility to be fronted by an African primate. OK, he’s proved to be something of an embarrassment as he says what they really think without the niceties, but still….for me, it simply identifies the lack of worth of the Anglican ‘Communion’ and the need to see a split, where these incompatible views no longer have to remain together.

Martin Reynolds
Guest

Andrew, I seem to remember you writing somewhere that those who thought Akinola would be “enthroned” as leader of the Global South and that there would be an attempt to humiliate Rowan at the South to South encounter were delusional. I cannot recall anything from you subsequently telling how you, and many others, were deceived by Akinola saying this was not a business meeting. Perhaps I missed your reporting. Your analysis of my post is puerile. Still, a couple of weeks ago you published an excellent article in the CEN on finding a way through this impasse, so not all… Read more »

RMF
Guest
RMF

Tom said, “Why is this blog so fixated on Nigeria?” The church there has taken it upon itself to slander and demean the good name of a man who dares to speak up for justice and dignity in a society of rampant corruption, where glbt are imprisoned. I think the answer is simple: Jesus said, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ This is the greatest and first commandment. And a second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ On these two commandments… Read more »

Neil
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Neil

This talk of a sinister worldwide plot is laughable. There *is* a worldwide concensus that homosexual practice is sinful – because that is God’s view as he has made clear in His Word. It really is that simple. As for this: “The Anglican Communion has a notional policy of respect and protection for LGBT people, but doesn’t understand that applying ‘traditional Biblical teaching and morality’ about same-sex relationships is incompatible with this.” That is just not true. And finally, hasn’t anyone else watched with some amazement at the personal attacks made on Akinola and Popoola on a number of threads,… Read more »

Tunde
Guest
Tunde

Colin, Try http://www.champion-newspapers.com/news/teasers/article_5 for details. Not sure however the article will load after today.

Andrew Carey
Guest
Andrew Carey

Martin, You and I have had some good conversations and generally get on quite well. But your constant insistence that either Americans or now Australians are pulling the strings is tiresome. It does leave the question in the air of what you actually think of Africans that they are so easily and obviously manipulated. As for your predictions prior to the South-to-South Encounter that ++Rowan would be unceremoniously, and humiliatingly dethroned and ++Akinola posted at the head of a new Anglican Communion – they were nonsense. And seriously did you really expect there to be no ‘business’ at the South-to-South… Read more »

Simon Sarmiento
Guest

Here is the text of that page Tunde quoted: FG moves to ban same sex marriage LERE OJEDOKUN, Abuja FEDERAL Government yesterday approved a draft bill seeking to ban same sex marriages and relationships in the country. If enacted by the National Assembly, offenders face a five-year jail term without option of fine. Besides, formation of association of homosexuals and lesbians as well as any form of protesting for rights recognition by the affected persons will be outlawed. Attorney-General and Minister of Justice, Chief Bayo Ojo (SAN) who briefed State House correspondents after the weekly Federal Executive Council (FEC) meeting,… Read more »

David Chillman
Guest
David Chillman

Andrew,

in retrospect, my words concerning ++Akinola were perhaps misleading.

I don’t think that someone is pulling his strings. But it would be naive in the extreme to assume that no-one is “playing politics” here. So, do I think that ++Jensen is manipulating ++Akinola? No. But he is certainly a player in the overall politicking and it is fair to ask the question “where is he in all this?”

Colin Coward
Guest

I’d like to return this thread to the starting point. It is now clear that Canon AkinTunde is still reading the blog from the helpful link he posted. He has still failed to produce any evidence in support of the malicious and totally unsubstantiated allegations against Davis MacIyalla. He has hasn’t challenged the material posted on our web site. He has, by asking Davis to scan and produce his knight’s certificate, implied that he doesn’t accept the picture of Davis in his uniform with his bishop as evidence and that it is either a forgery or Davis wearing a uniform… Read more »

Dave
Guest
Dave

Colin Coward wrote: “Members of the Anglican Communion hold with integrity radically different views on homosexuality in relation to scripture, Christian teaching and practice. I may disagree with people who post to this group, but I know I belong in the universal Church with them.”

Dear Colin, that is one of the first posts I have read for a long time that didn’t just attack people like me who (in my case after much thought and experience of homosexual people) believe that homosexual sex is sinful. I wish more liberals were prepared to listen and respect other views.

Thanks…

Merseymike
Guest
Merseymike

Ah well, thats because Colin wishes to preserve the Anglican Communion and is prepared to give your views credibility . Whereas I wish the Anglican communion to disintegrate (the sooner the better!) and think that conservative christianity is superstitious, harmful and ultimately to be rejected. For me, the only thing I have in common with you, Dave, in terms of our views, is the label Christian.

augustus meriwether
Guest

“people like me who (in my case after much thought and experience of homosexual people) believe that homosexual sex is sinful.” Dave, why is thought and experience relevent here? I thought you were guided solely by what is often called ‘the plain truth of scripture’ and the tradition and consensus of the Church. I think you have said before that applying thought and experience to the interpretation and application of scripture etc is SUBJECTIVE. You see? I AM listening to your views. I just don’t know which bit of them to respect – the bit that condemns subjectivity or the… Read more »

Anna
Guest

Colin, thank you for the reminder that we are all brothers and sisters in one universal Church. It’s too little expressed or understood. Dave, I share your dismay at the number of posts here with the tone of attack, and I would add sniping and triumphalist tones as well. Those posts appear from people on all sides of a given argument. It’s his playground, and he makes the rules, but I would urge Simon to consider stricter rules with regard to the comments he allows to appear and greater haste in shutting off exchanges when they degenerate into personal attacks.… Read more »

Simon Sarmiento
Guest

Anna
Thank you for that timely comment. I have been trying to be generous to commenters and have disallowed only a very few of the comments made recently. Perhaps I should be a bit stricter in future. Would other readers welcome this too?

Merseymike
Guest
Merseymike

I fundamentally disagree with the slogan about the ‘one universal church’- I simply don’t believe it exists- and I hope that any censorship won’t omit the perspective of those of us who think that we have no connection other than the label Christian with Nigeria et al. You see, Anna, this is not a situation where there is or ever could be a point of compromise. There are fundamental disagreements, and I do not wish to have any formal relationship with those who I consider to be homophobic. That divide is far greater than any supposed religious connection – and… Read more »

RMF
Guest
RMF

I for one would not like to censor comments simply because they may reflect a sometimes unpleasant reality.

Let people read and make up their own minds. Otherwise you begin to have posts that do not reflect reality but what is only not-frustrating or only what you would prefer to hear.

If any discussion only results in “You! No, you! No! Yes! What!” etc, then we’d better find another way through, hadn’t we?

Simon has done a very good job at seeing to this.

I am very confident that we can weather any unpleasantness or frustration.

Leonardo Ricardo
Guest
Leonardo Ricardo

“Perhaps I should be a bit stricter in future. Would other readers welcome this too?” Simon S. Dear Simon, I live in Latin America. I live in a Anglican/Episcopal Diocese that is “not” especially “progressive” in a country that is historically notorious for deceitful/criminal behavior and behind-the-scenes manipulation for personal greed/prestige/power/control and exploitation of *others*…most IMPORTANT Human Rights issues are ignored here by the “church” because people don’t want to be “embarrassed” or “shamed” or “caught” in their real “character” or “sin” of omission(s)…or just plain AFRAID to speak truth…it’s better to make lofty *traditional* religious pronouncements than look at… Read more »

Dave
Guest
Dave

Dear Simon The trouble with restricting free speech is that it is probably counter-productive and manipulative, except for stopping real excesses such as threats of actual violence, bullying or intimidation. I don’t enjoy people throwing campaign slogans like “homophobe” or “anti-gay” at anyone who is significantly less liberal than they are, or huge amounts of emotional pressure, but I would rather have a full and free exchange than be “protected” by gagging everyone! After all, if I can’t stand the heat I can always get out of the kitchen. One thing I would like to encourage if possible is addressing… Read more »

Anna
Guest

The posters above have made good points against disallowing comments. In the best commenting and posting experiences I’ve had, a moderator has taken an active role in helping others stay on track– not cutting off true debate, but reminding posters to be civil, encouraging them to stay on topic, respond to the post they’re commenting on, and perhaps most important, gently pointing out when people continue to play the same note again and again and encouraging them to add something new to the discussion. This kind of facilitation can shape and guide a discussion with very little effect on content… Read more »

augustus meriwether
Guest

I reckon it’s about right as it is.

badman
Guest
badman

I agree with Anna on the filtering of comments on Thinking Anglicans. “not cutting off true debate, but reminding posters to be civil, encouraging them to stay on topic, respond to the post they’re commenting on, and perhaps most important, gently pointing out when people continue to play the same note again and again and encouraging them to add something new to the discussion… I’d like to see more attention to the topic of the post and less using of the topic to announce one’s stand for the umpteenth time.” The most tiresome thing of all on a “Thinking” website… Read more »