Thinking Anglicans

BBC on VGR, Kenya

The BBC’s Sunday radio programme has two items of interest for the last 14+ minutes of the programme. Using this link, go forward about 30 minutes, for the start:

  • Interview by Jane Little with Gene Robinson
  • Feature on Kenya and Chelmsford, including interviews with John Richardson of Chelmsford Anglican Mainstream, with Tim Wambunya of the Kenya Church Association UK, and with Ruth Gledhill.

Better, permanent links on Tuesday now here:
VGR interview 4 minutes
Chelmsford/Kenya interviews 9 minutes

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Simon SarmientoCheryl CloughDavedrdanfeeJonathan Clark Recent comment authors
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John Richardson
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John Richardson

Just to clarify for those who may be confused by “interviews with John Richardson, a spokesperson for the Kenyan church, and Ruth Gledhill”, I am not a spokesperson for the Kenyan church. (Try, “with John Richardson, with a spokesperson for the Kenyan church, and with …”.) The spokesperson referred to is Revd Tim Wambunya, vicar of Emmanuel Church, Hornsey Road, London and Chair of the Kenya Church Association UK. He has an article on the Fulcrum website.

Simon Sarmiento
Guest

Thank you John, I will amend.
That’s what happens when you post quickly before going to church…
Of course, it never entered my head that anyone could mistake you for someone other than yourself 🙂

Revd David Hodgson
Guest

Gledhill paints John Gladwin as on the extreme liberal left of the church and as naive. This is complete nonsense on both counts. She also describes the African position on homosexuality as if it is a cultural correlate of being African – but this is not true.The position of the Kenyan bishops is not a function of their being African but of being ultraconservative evangelicals, which is the dominant churchmanship of the leaders of the Kenyan and some other African churches. In those African countries where the Anglican churches are not dominated by such conservative evangelicalism a completely different approach… Read more »

J. C. Fisher
Guest

“Feature on Kenya and Chelmsford, including interviews with John Richardson of Chelmsford Anglican Mainstream, with Tim Wambunya of the Kenya Church Association UK, and with Ruth Gledhill.”

Haven’t heard it yet, but—geez, what is this? A range of views from Right to Further Right?

Stephen Bates
Guest
Stephen Bates

Don’t want to swipe at a colleague, but did anyone else think the pointed reference to the Faerie Queen was a tad inappropriate?

Simon Sarmiento
Guest

JC
The BBC did note that nobody was available to speak for Bishop John until he himself returns to the UK.

Kendall Harmon
Guest

That certainly was a quick cut off of Ruth Gledhill at the end–was there a clear communication as to the time constraints of the interview?

Dave
Guest
Dave

I thought that Ruth’s comment about “Extreme Liberals” was very true. They are, in my view, unable to see any legitimatacy in any beliefs that conflict with their own. The attitude and argumentation sounds like “war talk” rather than “speaking the truth in love”. Hence I get “homophobia” accusations – not because I “hate” or “fear” or am “irrational” but because I try to conduct my life according to Christian teachings based on the New Testament, and teach other people to [try to] do the same. But no-one is forced to be a Christian; church-goers aren’t compelled to live up… Read more »

drdanfee
Guest
drdanfee

Ms. Gledhill cannot yet discern that a whole spectrum of global human rights initiatives are not just the newest, clever form of western dominance and colonialism? Why not? Because in the cases at hand these human rights ideas are being applied to LGBTQ folks? – all over Europe, and even in Canada, parts of Australia, New Zealand, and even in parts of the good old rightwing religious U.S.A. Gee, what a curious blind spot for a religion journalist to exhibit. One rather imagines she cannot empathize with any of the lesbian journalists with whom she probably works from time to… Read more »

Ian Montgomery
Guest
Ian Montgomery

“In those African countries where the Anglican churches are not dominated by such conservative evangelicalism a completely different approach is apparent.” The only African Province that is not on the same page as Kenya is South Africa. Africa – sub saharan – was mostly evangelised either USPG or CMS. The latter is clearly Evangelical and the former is Anglo Catholic. A good example of a province evangelised by both is Tanzania. The point I am making in reply to the above comment is that this is not an issue simply among conservative evangelicals. The Global South has a united front… Read more »

Cheryl Clough
Guest

Dave You are right to point out the problems of broad brush stereotyping. One of the risks in such discussions is over-generalisations. There is also a problem when an extreme group poses as representing an entire camp, leading to the whole camp becomes tarred with the same brush. You have rightly pointed out that there is a risk of calling people “homophobic” who are merely trying to stay true to their interpretation of scripture. The difficulty, is that camp also includes homophobics who hide behind the more gentle souls. On the other extreme, I have seen some incredibly misogynistic and/or… Read more »

Alan Marsh
Guest
Alan Marsh

drdanfee has a rather rosy view of “human rights” which simply does not stand up to scrutiny. In the UK even the prime minister is expressing muted regrets for the consequences of the human rights culture which he introduced to the UK constitution. As it takes ever tighter hold on our society, it actually constricts freedom of thought as well as speech, and hinders the application of justice by hamstringing the courts, who are progressively disabled from administering the law. There is no reason why journalists such as Ruth Gledhill should empathise with the lesbian journalists who drdanfee assumes are… Read more »

Jonathan Clark
Guest
Jonathan Clark

‘Vilification of the Evangelical Anglicans of Africa does not achieve anything but manifest the hubris of the “West.”‘

So why vilify anyone? I’m very happy to acknowledge that those I disagree with on homosexuality (ie. they’re agin it) are arguing from geneuinely held theological principle. Why not acknowledge also that whose of us who do not see homosexual practice as a sin are doing the same,rather than merely following ‘western values and relativism’.

I suppose the danger would be that if the vilifiers on either side were to do that, they’d have to listen seriously to their opponents

drdanfee
Guest
drdanfee

Yes, basic notions of human rights can be done badly. Human rights (like any paradigm or approach or strategy) can unfortunately be used, mainly to control or dominate people, locally or even globally. This sad feature of human leadership and institutions in no way undermines the merit of those human rights ideas. I see no good reason to presume ahead of time, that if only we can find the right set of absolute and final and eternal ideas, we shall never have to take a look at how we are using our best (and our worst) against our neighbor. As… Read more »

Dave
Guest
Dave

drdanfee wrote: “The Anglican Mainstream spokesperson now seems to presume a similarly narrow, airless, collapsed conversation space. All the air possible simply must be defined as belonging exclusively to the straight conservative believers to whom God has presumably given all of it in the first place…. . Rubbing shoulders with out gay folks is just that damning….” Dear drdanfee, you will probably be peplexed to learn that there are “gay” supporters of Anglican Mainstream, even of the ultra-conservative “Reform” network.. They disagree with you on what life options conform with true Christian principles and teachings! I expect your first reaction… Read more »

Cheryl Clough
Guest

Again the question of rejection of the teaching of the bible. An absolutist position based on claims of being true to the teaching of the bible must be done 100% correctly lest one discredits one’s position. So the bible is clear on usury, the sabbath, and providing hospitality to the alien and the afflicted. Thus Christians who do not use credit cards, pay superannuation, take out home loans, participate in transactions pertaining to charging interest, nor contribute to organisations that use this form of usery, nor tolerate such prostitution within their parishes may make an argument based on rejection of… Read more »

Simon Sarmiento
Guest

Please limit comments on this thread to the subject matter of the article, namely:

the Kenya/Chelmsford story
the interview of the Bp of New Hampshire
and the BBC’s coverage thereof.

In line with this, I have unpublished several comments from yesterday that in retrospect I should not have approved. My apologies to all concerned.