Thinking Anglicans

two more conservative documents

First, Anglican Mainstream has just republished another older document. It was prepared in May 2004 and submitted to the Windsor Commission on behalf of the Global South. It is titled Called to Witness and Fellowship.

Second, the Anglican Communion Institute website has published an article What Are We Meeting About? The Current Shape of our Common Discussions in the Episcopal Church.

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Leonardo Ricardo
Leonardo Ricardo
14 years ago

It’s all the same self-righteous spew no matter which one of the gang “monikers” the Anglican Communion Network/Council/Institue/whatever chooses to use. These threatening tirades are simply about strongly “talking down” to other Epsicopalians and the demonstrating of NO intention to engage in a better understanding of one another or to show any willingness to LISTEN to anything but the sound of their own insistant and demanding voice! Just another shrill WARNING of MORE pending “gang” violance against LGBT people, Episcopal Women in the priesthood, OUR families, friends, supportive loved ones, fellow Christians and the Presiding Bishop elect Katharine Jefferts Schori.… Read more »

Martin Reynolds
14 years ago

It is not surprising that the Anglican Communion Institute should embrace conciliarity and support the Williams/O’Donovan axis at this time. The time has come for them to back off – they almost did that a year ago when they announced their work was done and they were shutting up shop – but it didn’t quite happen. I regret to say that over the past few years their theological contributions have in the main seriously outclassed the little we have seen from our side of this dispute. I have sometimes pondered on what soporific drug they used to stupefy almost the… Read more »

pete
pete
14 years ago

The men at ACI have their collective heads in the sand and are trying to turn back the clock to the church of the 1950s. The Episcopal Church is falling apart? Why? Because they say so? I think not.

Why don’t these guys go and form their neo-Puritan “no one but us” church of the 1950s and leave the rest of us — the Episcopal Majority — alone?

Oh, and nothing like making an idol of the Windsor Report, which is a flawed document that GC 2006 did NOT adopt as a way forward. A wise decision I believe

New Here
New Here
14 years ago

In exactly what way are these people mainstream?

If I start calling myself “Archbishop of Canterbury” as often and loudly as possible, does this mean that I can move into Lambeth and get me one of those fabulous ensembles that Rowan wears?

Prior Aelred
14 years ago

Good Grief! The number of flat out false (not just misleading) statements in the release from ACI is breathtaking — I have neither time nor energy to plow through them all. They are wrong about church membership (although the Gospel is not a numbers game) & the authority of bishops in TEC & the authority of the primates in the WWAC on & on — I do believe they are right that the toothpaste cannot be put back into the tube. All along TEC & the ABC have said, “Can we talk?” & the neo-Donatists have said,”No!” So, in a… Read more »

drdanfee
drdanfee
14 years ago

Well, ho hum, the conservative conformity juggernaut rolls onward, rather like a tank in a standard battle movie. The loud sucking noise we hear from time to time is either a vacuum-pressured occasion of greater conformity that makes Anglican theology as predictable and standardized as a gross of canned Boston beans. Or, sometimes it seems to be a curious wind that blows in repeat of this or that ill-advised maneuver the church has adopted to embarrass following Jesus of Nazareth in some past era. Even the current Vatican seems quite in a rush to repeat the house arrest issued against… Read more »

Steven
Steven
14 years ago

Martin:

Thank you for an intelligent comment.

Steven

J. C. Fisher
J. C. Fisher
14 years ago

Is anyone else struck by the fact that those who have, for decades, resolutely REFUSED to ***listen*** to the “still, small voice” of LGBT Anglicans (and our quiet, Christian *lives*) are now screaming “Hear Ye! Hear Ye!” at the top of their lungs? And DEMANDING that we listen to *them*?

Lord have mercy!

Cheryl Clough
14 years ago

I agree with Martin’s assessment, that their game plan is well considered and thought out. The key to being a successful serial predator is to make it completely unbelievable that such a trustworthy character could ever do anything heinous. That is why we are horrified when we hear of people who were building bombs whilst being a respected high school teacher, or pedophiles who worked in a childcare centre. The discipline section is interesting, and a core premise to their authority is expressed early in the paper “Our unity does not centre merely on liturgy or corporate worship but grows… Read more »

Tony
Tony
14 years ago

Speaking of the Vatican and Darwin, it fills me with unease that they might be retracting the position stated with great clarity by John Paul II that “Today… new knowledge has led to the recognition of the theory of evolution as more than a hypothesis.”

http://www.newadvent.org/library/docs_jp02tc.htm

NP
NP
14 years ago

Come one JCF….it does not mean that people have not carefully and respectfully listened to you just because they do not agree with you.

The ABC, for one, has listened for years- has he not? He does not have to fully agree with and obey you, having listened. Conservatives have listened too but are not persuaded….just as you are not persuaded by them.

Why don’t we listen to someone else who reached out to outcast sinners (like us all)? He showed incredible acceptance and forgiveness as he said, “go and sin no more.”

David Rowett (= mynsterpreost)
David Rowett (= mynsterpreost)
14 years ago

Martin Reynolds pondered on: ‘what soporific drug they used to stupefy almost the entire liberal academic establishment in the west’. For good or ill, the entire liberal academic establishment is largely unconcerned with the ravings of the Anglican Church. A couple of years ago there was discussion at the Old Testament Society Conference (so I am told) about ‘the Faustian Pact between the academy and the Church’. at the end of the day, the majority of academics aren’t Anglicans living out their lives in the hinterland, and the assumptions of the Anglican Mainstream mafia do not impinge any more than… Read more »

J. C. Fisher
J. C. Fisher
14 years ago

A further thought— From the ACI: “The Episcopal Church is falling apart.” Forget “Episcopal”. The *Church* has been falling apart, ever since Pentecost (The Holy Spirit, while “firing up” the disciples for mission, did not remove their sinful, *divisive* human natures. And we are their children!) And YET, the Church, as Christ’s Body, goes on. It can’t fall apart, and won’t (despite the worst efforts of her fallen members!) All of the People of God live into this tension, of brokenness in unity, unity in brokenness. Before the Second Coming, we may never be able to resolve this tension. We… Read more »

J. C. Fisher
J. C. Fisher
14 years ago

“The ABC, for one, has listened for years- has he not?”

If he didn’t listen to his friend, Jeffrey John, he sure as heck isn’t going to listen to me!

“Conservatives have listened too” (*)

Um, evidence?

Sorry, NP: I just don’t see it… 🙁

(*) By which I mean, being open to having their *opinion that the Bible condemns homosexual practice* CHANGED.

drdanfee
drdanfee
14 years ago

The sticking point is not that one group does not agree with the other. The sticking point, and the danger point, and the new Anglican Realignment boiling point is that one group is prepared to assert its views as absolute, final, and normative for depriving people of jobs, housing, healthcare, and the right to legal contracts of care and commitment – simply because that group baldly defines queer folks (and sometimes other groups, too) as bad, and nothing but. If this were simply the conservatives banging on the sturdy pots of their favorite penalisms, and their smug internal conversations about… Read more »

NP
NP
14 years ago

JCF

To listen does not necessarily mean to agree.

Would you say that you have not listened to “conservatives”?

We can all respectfully, carefully, prayerfully consider arguments and reject them as wrong or weak….having listened.

Cheryl Clough
14 years ago

NP We can agree to disagree. There can be diversity within the church, just as there is within the whole of the body of Christ (all denominations). However, ABC himself has put a boundary on how far the tent stakes are to be spread – and it is not to include tolerance of homosexuality (and in the last few weeks we no longer discuss the divinity of Christ, either). Not only is there to be no tolerance within ABC’s communion, the same people who would suppress us and delegate us to cooks and cleaners (please smile as you keep our… Read more »

NP
NP
14 years ago

Cheryl – sorry to hear your friend’s bad experiences…..

“Agree to disagree” – depends on the issue – there has to be agreement on “crucial” issues for there to be meaningful unity and association ……

I am sure you would put limits on what views can be included, even if those limits are different to the ABC. Everybody has there limits

laurence hoyw roberts
laurence hoyw roberts
14 years ago

Thanks so much for this moving, and deeply true post, Cheryl.

The ‘conservatives’ hold a point of view–while we lgbt people are fighting for our lives around the world…

David Rowett (= mynsterpreost)
David Rowett (= mynsterpreost)
14 years ago

“Agree to disagree” – depends on the issue – there has to be agreement on “crucial” issues for there to be meaningful unity and association ……

Yup, the niceno-constanitopolitan creed in its unexpounded (sic) form will do me nicely. That is, a statement of faith by a bunch of Greeks using a highly elaborate and symbolic language which opens possibilities by use of paradox and the like. As the Chalcedonian definition does, come to think of it.

Christianity got in with Zen-style thinking before ever California was colonised…:-)

Andy
Andy
14 years ago

Cheryl wrote: “However, ABC himself has put a boundary on how far the tent stakes are to be spread – and it is not to include tolerance of homosexuality”

I don’t think that is ABC’s position, or the position of evangelical churches. They are tolerant of homosexuality as orientation, which is what I take the term homosexual or homosexuality to mean. They are intolerant of church leaders who either teach that homosexual genital acts are not sinful, or who habitually practice such acts. And rightly so in my view.

Cynthia
Cynthia
14 years ago

“…are tolerant of homosexuality as orientation, which is what I take the term homosexual or homosexuality to mean. They are intolerant of church leaders who either teach that homosexual genital acts are not sinful, or who habitually practice such acts.” I surely must need another cup of coffee to understand this. It is OK to “be” gay but not to act upon one’s sexuality? So it would be OK to ‘be’ gay but practice heterosexual genital acts [presumably while married to someone of the opposite sex]? OK – let’s try an analogy. It’s OK to “be” left-handed, as long as… Read more »

drdanfee
drdanfee
14 years ago

The nice thing is that you do not have to engage in genital same sex acts if you do not want to, even while you demand that others just say no to some of the best and deepest givens of their human natures, including their queer sexuality. Queer folks and their allies are living the Peter experiment, admittedly: Do not call unclean that which God has called clean, and in its early church contexts, the Gentiles were archetypically unclean according to the most ancient and venerable Jewish traditions, scripture readings, and so forth. Two summary images of Gentile uncleanness that… Read more »

Cheryl Clough
14 years ago

Both NP & Andys’ initial replies prove the point that tolerance to homosexuals is beyond the boundaries of their tent stakes. We had a discussion months ago where this dialogue came to the point that we want GLBTs – but only if they are non-practising and keep it a secret. I presume they are only wanted for their tithes and domestic skills, which effectively makes them the apartheid slaves of the conservatives. Witnesses to everything but unable to articulate their existence or experiences without being branded or disciplined. One of the biggest conundrum in this whole thing is that homosexuality… Read more »

NP
NP
14 years ago

If, for example, a persistent liar comes along, I would not automatically exclude him but I would tell him that he is required to repent and believe…i.e. stop telling lies

I guess nobody will disagree with this…but some will agree merely because it fits with their views and it happens to fit with the Bible.

Give us proper authority – not just your preferences. “Liberals” have not won the theological debate – even the ABC has all but abandoned his speculative writings from his time as an academic.

Simon Sarmiento
14 years ago

Please keep the comments clearly focused on the original subject matter of (either of) the two documents.

Neil
Neil
14 years ago

Sorry not to be commenting on the original subject matter…but would someone explain why quite a few people end posts with ‘Lord have mercy’? I am not clear what they mean, why they say it, and am finding the habit rather irritating as I am not sure they do either! Does it add some mystical weight of emotion to their posts? Is it simply heartfelt piety?

Leonardo Ricardo
Leonardo Ricardo
14 years ago

“Lord have mercy” often is my personal petition to God/Jesus to help me have the on-going faith, TRUST, wisdom, courage and HOPE necessary to be able to continue to endure the ignorance, lies, fear and discrimination spoken/acted against me and *other* fellow Christians by arrogant religious extremists.

Neil
Neil
14 years ago

many thanks…so anybody can join in this refrain I guess…

Leonardo Ricardo
Leonardo Ricardo
14 years ago

The week before Semana Santa this year a dear friend of mine died. She was a “charismatic” Roman Catholic and died a very painful death after three months with “full care” in a hospital bed. Dear Ruth was 76 years old and didn’t want any “pain medication” as she wanted to “honor” the God that had lifted/taken her multiple addictions from “mind altering” sources away from her 43 years earlier…the last afternoon of her death I was seated next to her bed in the hospital and she kept crying out “Lord have mercy”…”Lord have mercy” took on extra meaning to… Read more »

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