Thinking Anglicans

Welsh ASBO furore

Ruth Gledhill, who published a report in The Times this morning headlined Cathedral bans Carey as a ‘divisive force’, later published a blog article Asbo on Lord Carey which contains a wealth of additional detail and links to other comments on this matter.

The first story provoked Dave Walker to draw a cartoon published under Lord Carey banned from Cathedral.

ASBO – an explanation.

Additional further links on the Bangor affair

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Keith Kimber
Keith Kimber
14 years ago

Well, I’d say this is a spiffing way of getting extra publicity for the annual CMS ‘J C Jones Memorial Lecture’. Attendances haven’t been as massive in recent years, as in days of yore. No publicity is bad publicity, they say don’t they?
Was this the objective? What sort of impact was intended by this gesture, and upon whom?

Doug Chaplin
Doug Chaplin
14 years ago

First, I think this is an own goal by the Dean of Bangor. If you are (presumably) standing for reasoned liberalism and inclusivism, banning people you disagree with is counterproductive. Is the Dean worried that +GC might persuade people of views the Dean disagrees with? It’s unfortunate that Ruth Gledhill’s report and blog implicitly tar +Rowan with the same brush: +RW is much more geneorus than the mean-minded Dean, and, anyway, could (metaphorically) knock +GC out of the theological ring with one hand tied behind his back. Persoanlly, I wouldn’t choose to invite +GC to speak at anything: I’ve always… Read more »

Ford Elms
Ford Elms
14 years ago

Ban the bishop!?!?! Dear God, what next? How to play into the hands of the conservative “I’m being persecuted and you’d know if I took my boot off your face” crowd! Stupid thing to do. Why doesn’t he just throw a gas can on the fire and be done with it? But I find myself getting more and more angry at the use of the word “orthodox” to describe people like ABp Carey. How in the name of all that’s holy does an Evangelical get to be orthodox? Placing Scripture above Holy Tradition alone deprives him of that descriptor, surely… Read more »

Pluralist
14 years ago

So it is Lord Carey banned from Bangor Cathedral and the Unitarians (mentioned by Ruth Gledhill) banned from Chester Cathedral. Of course he should not have been (and neither should they have been) banned. It helps make Lord Carey into a more significant person. I regard both George Carey and Rowan Williams as somewhat ineffective, but for different reasons. George Carey never had presence, and represented someone who was over-run by secularisation and pluralism, and had nothing to say that spoke to these times. Rowan Williams is a far more substantial and interesting figure, but his failure is because he… Read more »

Martin Reynolds
Martin Reynolds
14 years ago

If this had been a liturgical event then perhaps I might have suggested that George Carey should have sat quietly in the cathedral, vested as a priest, and then addressed the “throng” in a parish room afterward.
But in the circumstances – as Keith says this IS the J C Jones Memorial Lecture – then I think the comment from Lambeth Palace is far from being “pompous” rather it sums up the situation rather neatly.

David Rowett (=mynsterpreost)
David Rowett (=mynsterpreost)
14 years ago

good post pluralist.

David Rowett (=mynsterpreost)
David Rowett (=mynsterpreost)
14 years ago

Although I agree that to ‘ban’ GC was a silly thing to do, I do deplore the way the guy himself has behaved of late. There were some who knew him when he wasn’t the puppet of the extreme ConsEvs (eg at St. Nic’s Durham), but by the time he became bishop of Bath and Wells back in the 80’s he seemed to have had his proverbial nuts cut off, nervous of anything which sounded like what he was supposed to have been teaching at Trinity Bristol. He reminded me a little of Maurice Wood, who as bishop of Norwich… Read more »

Alan Marsh
Alan Marsh
14 years ago

Is this not the cathedral where Richard Holloway’s famous outburst about “mean-minded s****” and “miserable b******” took place? It seems Bangor Cathedral likes to remind the world of its existence in the worst possible way.

NP
NP
14 years ago

Ford – I think you are reading too much into the word “orthodox”

It is perfectly reasonable to describe someone like George Carey as an orthodox Anglican because he holds to the 39 articles and the teaching of the church as we see it in Lambeth resolutions and the Windsor report etc – he is orthodox in that he is not innovating or subverting the teaching of the church.

Carey is not Reform or Alpha…..he is a pretty mainstream English Anglican – Bangor’s dean is just showing how extreme his views are by banning the former ABC.

Tim
Tim
14 years ago

Well said Doug. One of the things that saddens me is the devaluation of terms (`orthodox’, `conservative’, `liberal’, `inclusive’, `welcoming’) from meaning a way in which one acts, to becoming mere labels floating over the heads of groups split on political grounds. If you call yourself inclusive, you can jolly well *include* folks with differing opinions on *any* issue. It would be more to the point if there was evidence of direct communication between ±Carey & ++Williams rather than some form of pseudo-public dispute permeating the public media. Do other liturgies not have something like http://www.scotland.anglican.org/worship/liturgy/scottish-liturgy-1982/#paragraph19 with its phrase, “Lord,… Read more »

Andrew Brown
14 years ago

As I understand it, Carey has not been banned for his views, but for his breaching the convention — which he upheld most zealously while in office — that retired Archbishops didn’t try to back seat drive.

laurence
laurence
14 years ago

Unfortunately, George Carey’s teaching and practice are not consistent with that of the Church in Wales (cf Bishops’ statement, 2005). In the brave new (anglican) world world that George has helped to create, dissent is not permitted to be expressed, and dissenters excluded. I hope he will be able to reflect prayerfully upon the experience of exclusion. — Many of us have had to, thanks to himself and those more virulent whom he has encouraged. BTW I love the description that he ‘became a supporter of orthodoxy, after he stood down as archbishop’. Is he trying to make up for… Read more »

DaveW
DaveW
14 years ago

Its extraordinary but note the article features comments about the gay issue …..nuff said. 🙂

Gerry Lynch
14 years ago

So it is Lord Carey banned from Bangor Cathedral and the Unitarians (mentioned by Ruth Gledhill) banned from Chester Cathedral.

Yes, it’s all getting a bit medieval, isn’t it? Personally, I think Carey is a fool and a bit of a knave, but I have served for him at the altar and despite obvious differences, I would have no problem receiving Holy Communion from him.

I’m all in favour of a muscular, aggressive, liberalism that isn’t afraid to defend itself but jaw jaw is always better than war war at the end of the day.

Steve Watson.
Steve Watson.
14 years ago

“You see Wales is an ancient Anglican Church in its own right.”

Come again? I thought ‘Anglican’ meant ‘English’ and Cymru’s raison d’etre is that is NOT Lloegr…

I also misguidedly thought that the Church in Wales’s claim was to be a branch of the ancient and undivided Catholic Church. How can it be that, with schismatic uncatholic innovations like female priests and (in Bangor) a divorced and remarried bishop?

DaveW
DaveW
14 years ago

I have heard George Carey preach and was blessed. I may disagree with some of the things Rowan Williams believes, has said and done, but banning is a step that had never crossed my mind for either.
But as pointed out here, can one be liberal and inclusivise and ban people? Are there any instances of the exclusives banning Rowan Williams or it is just inclusives who are exclusive?

Andrew Carey
Andrew Carey
14 years ago

DaveW, sadly I think at times both liberals and conservatives can be pretty intolerant of other viewpoints. I can certainly recall attempts by some evangelicals to prevent Rowan Williams being invited to the NEAC conference in Blackpool a few years ago. So this is a two-way street and both types of intolerance should be criticised.

Cheryl Clough
Cheryl Clough
14 years ago

“Bangor’s dean is just showing how extreme his views are by banning the former ABC.”

I am not comfortable with the banning, but it is not my place to comment.

But I will comment that when one group’s advocates are banned it is by “extremists”, but when they apply censorship it is for “legitimate” reasons. Again, the issue is not censorship per se, but who is doing it.

Ford Elms
Ford Elms
14 years ago

“he is orthodox in that he is not innovating or subverting the teaching of the church.” But this is exactly what I’m talking about. 500 years ago, the people who proposed the very things you are talking about were the innovators. The orthodox of the day went to great extremes to oppose them. It led to violence, political intrigue, and hate filled divisions that are still very much alive today and still causing trouble. So 500 year old divisive innovation becomes “orthodoxy” now, and serves to produce more hate filled division. You can piously claim that you are standing by… Read more »

Tim
Tim
14 years ago

DaveW asks “can one be liberal and inclusivise and ban people?”

Good question. I wonder whether you can be a *church* and ban people. Probably about the only reason I’d say you could is the strength of the bouncers at the door to prevent physical disruption to ongoing services. Anything else is a doctrinal failing.

laurence
laurence
14 years ago

Well, Friend Steve W. my understanding is that ‘Anglican’ is a word used of all the Provinces or Churches of the –erm– ‘Anglican Communion.’ ‘Anglican’ does, I believe, have its roots in a Latin word meaning ‘of England’ (genative case); just as the words ‘Communion’ and ‘Church’ originate in the Greek words ‘Koinonia’ and ‘Ecclesia’. I suppose I could, efallai ‘should’, have written yr Eglwys yng Nghymru instead. Might have been attacked for that, given how threatned the majority state-language speakers feel, when ‘confronted’ by the ancient non-state language. This is shown in the thinking that ‘Cymru’s raison d’etre is… Read more »

laurence
laurence
14 years ago

‘There has always been a tension in liberalism between liberalism as inclusivity and liberalism as ideology. This is why a liberal view, despite its toleration, is sometimes never quite as tolerant as opponents peculiarly demand.’ I enjoyed and benefitted from Pluralist’s post as (always), and, particularly enjoyed the above quotation. Especially the enlightening & delicious ‘as opponents peculiarly demand’. Yes, it is a peculiar demand,indeed. I guess liberals-n-radicals always have to struggle with this, in a way, that the idealogues and enforcers of apartheid(s) of all kinds, do not have to. At present, I feel SO liberal-radical that I won’t… Read more »

laurence
laurence
14 years ago

Those here who are leaping to defend George, and using words like ‘banning’, are also the very people, who regularly call, for the banning of lgbt people & communities,women & Sea of Faith types (to use shorthand), from everything from church membership,Blessings, marriage, office, ordiantion and the right to pastoral care; and to be seen & heard. I don’t hear them rushing to our defence. They are most selective. I am not selective up until — I do draw the line at hate speeach & hateful or hurtful deeds. ‘Careless words (still) cost lives.’ A terrible thing that has happened… Read more »

Keith Kimber
Keith Kimber
14 years ago

Well, this has been the usual sort of general churchy discussion so far, but to what end? Laurence reminded readers that Wales doesn’t have to think and act the English way. Fine. But if that’s the case, how come Welsh Deans still do what (English) Deans do? How come Welsh Deans also exercise powers and responsibilities of office in a way that whiffs of old style authoritarian culture? And that despite Welsh disestablishment. Like so many of our Anglican institutions and their habitual ways of dealing with the world, they seem to escape any kind of criticism that might issue… Read more »

laurence
laurence
14 years ago

I am learning to…. Yr wyf yn dysgu… I am one ordinary person upon whom it has all greatly impacted and am getting on without the Anglican church by and large. I like many ordinary people, I am glad to see the exclusion, of one who used his position in the Establishment,to attack lgbt people at every turn, in both the Church and the House of Lords; actively using their legislative powers to oppress us. And using his global influence to foment the anti-lgbt people in the US and Nigeria for example with disastrous consequences. Had he spoken in Bangor… Read more »

The Admiral of Morality
14 years ago

Anti-Carey, anti-gay, anti-social, what next, anti-pagan? Why, yes, naturally.

“Catholics turn on Glastonbury Pagans.”
http://admiralofmorality.blogspot.com

David Rowett (=mynsterpreost)
David Rowett (=mynsterpreost)
14 years ago

If they want to ‘cleanse’ Glastonbury of paganism, they’ve got a long haul.

Mind you, what makes us giggle is the way Glastonbury has ‘cleansed’ itself. When we lived near there it was full of barefoot alternative types selling paper flowers. Now it’s full of 30-somethings with kiddies in 4WD pushchairs who have been decanted out of people carriers. You know, the sorts of folk who, 40 years ago, would have been churchwarden fodder. A sort of Lourdes for the wealthy New Ager!

Good music shop and fish and chip shop, though.

Pluralist
14 years ago

As someone who in 2001 wrote and conducted a Pagan/ Goth wedding, and had a neo-Pagan phase while in the Unitarians, and written materials playing around with earth, fire, water and air symbolism (amazing how far you can use British winds to symbolise all manner of things) I take quite a dislike to the attack on people in Canterbury. Naturally I take the view that we can learn a lot from neo-Pagans: a reconstructed religion that has remythologised, that has developed both an intellectual end and a magical end (and look at how much Sociology of Religion studies neo-Paganism), that… Read more »

Pluralist
14 years ago

A significant Freudian slip on my part. I wrote Canterbury instead of Glastonbury. I am trying to work out the significance of this slip about Pagans under attack in canterbury. It could be Canterbury, as well, after all, or maybe my mind has become affected by something. The link to hear from the new Presiding Bishop over in, er, not Canterbury, also led on to the Youth 2000 (or whoever they were) report, and the slipperiest interviewee heard for some time, like no one chucked salt or threatened Pagans with fire because we don’t have members. He did say he… Read more »

Cheryl Clough
Cheryl Clough
14 years ago

Ford, I found myself thinking about your posting of Friday 3 November over the weekend (thank you). One thing that kept niggling at me is that in recent times the Roman Catholics have improved their game in terms of dialogue and advocacy on behalf of the marginalised. I contemplated whether the Catholic church would have turned to a more plaintiff role if they had been allowed to move unfettered by counterbalance weights that could stand up to and shame their excesses. I contemplated that if it had not been for the Muslims and then the Protestants, that the Catholic church… Read more »

Dr. Irene Lancaster FRSA
14 years ago

I don’t agree with Doug Chaplin. I know George Carey very well and have worked with him on his Foundation for Reconciliation in the Middle East.

I think he is extremely intelligent, and even more important, insightful (no, not inciteful).

I think that many of his detractors are snobs and a in Jerusalem a few days ago, Anglicans and Catholics on both sides of the political spectrum all agreed that he has been and continues to be a great power for good in this imperfect world.

But what do I know – I’m just Jewish.

Cheryl Clough
Cheryl Clough
14 years ago

Irene. It doesn’t matter that your Jewish. (Well it does to some, but then your being a woman is an even greater handicap for these souls). Your posting reminds us that trying to find the best way forward can mean that all parties are a little bit “put out”. The issue is not whether there is discomfort, fully experiencing this reality inevitably involves some discomfort. The tragedy is when some elements attempt to completely snuff out elements of God’s diversity that do not compliment their theological edifices.

NP
NP
14 years ago

Ford – the Reformers were not innovators in that they were not making up something new….their criticisms of the corrupt institution in which they found themselves was firmly based in scripture.

They were not subversives – they were ….orthodox (ie views based on scripture) and had to leave a corrupted institution which would not …listen

DaveW
DaveW
14 years ago

Dear Andrew Carey,
DaveW,
You wrote
“I can certainly recall attempts by some evangelicals to prevent Rowan Williams being invited to the NEAC conference in Blackpool a few years ago. So this is a two-way street and both types of intolerance should be criticised. “
Yes of course thats true. (I stand corrected) Many thanks.

laurence
laurence
14 years ago

HOW I wish George Carey had used his ‘intelligence and insight’ (Irene quote) in the service of the lgbt communities and our families and friends, instead of serving his mistress, Margaret Thatcher so well. I don’t think I’m a snob.

But what do I know ? — I’m only a queer from a council estate …..

I should know my place

David Rowett (=mynsterpreost)
David Rowett (=mynsterpreost)
14 years ago

NP: you offer suggested reading, I suggest you have a look at Duffy’s ‘the stripping of the altars’ — the ‘corrupt church’ may not have been as corrupt as some of the reformers liked to imagine…

NP
NP
14 years ago

Thanks Dave – will it try to defend selling indulgences?

DaveW
DaveW
14 years ago

Dear Laurence, You wrote.. “I am glad to see the exclusion, of one who used his position in the Establishment,to attack lgbt people at every turn.” Not everybody classifies and identifies people by their sexual desires, whatever they are, opposite, same, both/heterosexual, homosexual, bisexual. You are seemingly talking about being exclusive of people who don’t share your worldview. You also wrote “Had he spoken in Bangor Cathedral it would have carried the message that hate words and hate legislation is fine against gays.” But I have seen no hate for anyone in anything George Carey has said, I think you… Read more »

Cheryl Clough
Cheryl Clough
14 years ago

The label Orthodox could be claimed by every single element of the Anglican communion. Every single element is referring to the bible in its intepretations. The label does not belong to one camp, and attempts to “own” the word are merely a propaganda stunt. Referring to the Anglicans Online article that Simon linked last Sunday http://anglicansonline.org/ It used to be illegal to marry a dead wife’s sister. But that cuts completely across the bible – a man used to be obliged to care for his brother’s widow. And what about Jacob – named Israel – who married both Leah and… Read more »

mynsterpreost
mynsterpreost
14 years ago

indulgences?
pp287ff….

Ford Elms
Ford Elms
14 years ago

NP, Orthodox does NOT mean “views based on Scripture”. It means “right belief”. This right belief is variously defined, depending on when a particular group left the fold. The Greeks and those in Communion with them call themselves Orthodox. The Copts and Armenians and Ethiopians and Nestorians all call themselves Orthodox. While they disagree with each other they all have views that can be said to be based in Scripture only by great stretching. Images, for instance. Orthodoxy requires veneration of images, because it maintians a proper understanding of the Incarnation. By calling the veneration of icons ‘idol worship’ or… Read more »

Cheryl Clough
Cheryl Clough
14 years ago

Luther handing bibles to the masses. The whole basis of Protestantism, that the lay Christian could read the bible for themselves. Profound in its time. Luther advocated this as a way of getting past the collective “group think” of the Catholic church at the time. You know the one, the world looks this way, the precedents say that it looks this way, our scholars agree that it looks this way, so therefore it does look this way. Don’t worry about looking outside the library corridors to see what is really happening. And if it don’t look like the text books,… Read more »

NP
NP
14 years ago

Ford – “right belief” comes from “views based on Scripture”

Deviation from scripture (by evos or libs) has always (right from C1) led to lies being taught, division, strife and faith being destroyed….sadly

DaveW
DaveW
14 years ago

Dear Ford Elms, If Jesus is the truth the way and the life (John 14) and His disciples are those who know His voice and obey (Matt 28:20, Luke 11:28, John 14 & 15 etc) His teaching, then ‘right belief’ can only be based on the scripture record of who Jesus said He is and His teaching. He hasn’t left us alone, the Holy Spirit reminds us. … So right belief can only be variously defined according to interpretation. ‘right belief’ cannot be without scripture and the direct opposite of scripture, that’s disbelief. So Christian theology is based on the… Read more »

Göran Koch-Swahne
14 years ago

Bangor, again!

The just rewards for Dontopedalogy, I would say.

The Church Mission Society people really are the ones to blame, for inviting someone who has misused his retirement to undermine his successor and former office.

Ford Elms
Ford Elms
14 years ago

NP and DaveW, All I can say is that you need to read the history of the first thousand years of the Church. Of course Scripture is an important part of Tradition, but the Fathers wrestled with it as part of the Tradition. You’ve heard the old saw “the Church gave us the Bible, the Bible didn’t give us the Church.” If the Fathers had gone with, say, a Platonist understanding of the Divine, I would agree with you on the “ideas of men” thing, but they didn’t. All the philosophy that had gone before gave them a language and… Read more »

laurence
laurence
14 years ago

How was your break Dave ?

DaveW
DaveW
14 years ago

Dear Ford Elms
Of course the church has seen the scriptures in a certain way over the years but I was referring to the scriptures themselves. I think anyone can see human cultural ideas in the Bible if they know about the human cultural ideas and thinking.
The apostle Paul for example was a Roman citizen who had grown up in Greek Tarsus as a Jew, but although familiar with Roman, Greek and Jewish culture he received his gospel revelation from the risen Lord.

Ford Elms
Ford Elms
14 years ago

Well, of course. I think we’re at least partially agreeing here. Only partially, though, since you seem to want to restrict all of Christianity to what can be fairly easily demonstrated by Scripture. My point was that a lot of what came to be Christianity comes out of a wrestling with Scripture in light of experience and the guidance of the Spirit. The early theological debates were carried on by people of Jewish and Greco-Roman backgrounds. That background gave them a vocabulary of words and ideas to use in their debates.They developed what is found in Scripture, using Scripture as… Read more »

DaveW
DaveW
14 years ago

Dear Ford Elms, Thank you for your reply. My point and intention was to show that regardless of it seeming like Roman, Greek or Jewish influenced, the revelation Paul and the NT apostles and disciples received was nonetheless from the risen Lord So like the early theological debates by people with Greco-Roman backgrounds about the NT we also like every generation have cultural backgrounds, but the NT is a record from the community who saw heard and were taught by Jesus, that’s revelation from God not theology as in the study of God. The NT writers tell us the community… Read more »

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