Thinking Anglicans

American reports (2)

Now back to our regularly scheduled coverage of the Virginia schism.

The Church Times has a report by Doug LeBlanc Property at issue as nine churches quit ECUSA.

Archbishop Peter Akinola has issued A Letter of Greeting from Archbishop Peter Akinola to the congregations who have recently joined CANA in which he says this:

…Sadly, I have also heard that some are suggesting that you are now affiliated with a Church that seeks to punish homosexual persons. That is a distortion of our true position. We are a Church that teaches the truth of the Holy Scriptures and understands that every person, regardless of their religion or sexual orientation, is made in the image of God, loved by God, and deserving of the utmost respect. That is the conviction that informs our passion for evangelism and drives our determination to establish new dioceses and congregations. We have no desire to place anyone outside the reach of God’s saving love and that is why we have supported well reasoned statements such as Resolution 1.10 from the Lambeth Conference in 1998 and also the section of the Dromantine Communiqué, which condemns the “victimization or diminishment of human beings whose affections happen to be ordered towards people of the same sex.”

As I am sure you have heard, there is a bill currently being debated by the Nigerian Legislature that addresses the topic of same-sex marriages and homosexual activism. The Standing Committee of the Church of Nigeria, in its desire to see the strengthening of marriage and family life in our society, has commended the legislators for tackling this difficult issue. We have no desire to see our nation follow the path of license and immorality that we have witnessed in other parts of the world. And we also oppose the severe sanctions of Islamic law.

We recognize that there are genuine concerns about individual human rights that must be addressed both in the framing of the law and its implementation. I am glad to inform you that while the Honorable Speaker of the House, a Moslem, wanted the immediate and outright passage of the bill, the Deputy Speaker, an Anglican, persuaded his colleagues to allow full public debate on it.

I am troubled, however, by the silence of outside commentators concerning the rights of the clergy, Christians, and particularly converts to our Church whose lives are threatened and too often destroyed because of mob violence. I see no evidence of compassion for those whose rights are trampled on because of the imposition of unjust religious laws in many parts of the world. There seems to be a strange lack of interest in this issue…

You can read the whole letter here on the CANA website.

There is also a letter there from Bishop Martyn Minns headed A Pastoral Letter for the new CANA Congregations. You can read that one here. He writes in part:

…Media coverage of our actions has been quite extensive. It has been prompted by the national and international implications of our decisions along with the reality that this is an unprecedented movement of congregations out of The Episcopal Church. As expected, not all of the media coverage was positive. I want to address one recurring untrue accusation concerning our attitude towards homosexual persons. Our vote was not an “anti-gay” vote. We affirm that as Christians we believe that every person, regardless of their sexual orientation, is made in the image of God, and deserving of the utmost respect. As the Dromantine Communiqué (issued by the Primates when they met in Ireland last year) states, “. . . we continue unreservedly to be committed to the pastoral support of homosexual people” and oppose “the victimization or diminishment of human beings whose affections happen to be ordered towards people of the same sex.” And we have and must continue to witness to these convictions by our words and actions. I have attached a recent letter from Archbishop Peter Akinola that addresses this same issue from his perspective. Please notice the difference between what he actually says and believes and the dismissive tag lines that are often attributed to him.

Another persistent untrue theme is the way in which we care for those who voted to remain in The Episcopal Church. As I have said repeatedly, and I am sure you have heard from your own clergy and lay leadership, everyone is welcome to participate in our common life regardless of their vote on this or any matter. We are not monochrome congregations but diverse communities whose unity is in Jesus Christ as the Way, the Truth, and the Life. If someone tells you that they voted against the resolution, then I encourage you assure them that they are loved and included as full members of the family of God in this place. If there is any way in which I can help in this matter please let me know. My calling is to provide for the care and nurture of every member of our growing fellowship.

You may have read a response to our actions from Bishop Peter Lee. While his disappointment was to be expected, I am saddened that his language seems strangely harsh. I am particularly troubled by the rather blatant attempt to create fear and division by the use of the phrase “Nigerian Congregations Occupying Episcopal Churches”. This is not the Bishop Lee that I know and respect. I look forward to the return of his more usual tone of creativity and generosity. We all know that while we may have changed our ecclesiastical allegiance we remain loyal and faithful Anglican Christians in America. The character of our communities remains the same.

The question of property seems to loom large in many people’s minds. I draw your attention to the following press statement that was released yesterday by Truro and The Fall Church, “Anglican Churches Comply with Virginia Statute Requiring Reports of Their Congregations’ Votes.” It clearly states our belief that we have a valid and compelling claim to the various church properties which we have for generations “occupied”. We also believe that this should be handled in a respectful conversation with the leadership of the Episcopal Diocese of Virginia. We are trying to avoid both costly litigation and a media circus. Initial signs from the meeting of the Standing Committee and Executive Board are encouraging and we are preparing to engage in substantive conversation after the Christmas Holidays…

Some of the press reports which may have prompted these letters can be found below:
Washington Post Episcopalians Against Equality by Howard Meyerson
Nation Holy Homophobia by Richard Kim
Economist Wars of religion – Schism in Virginia
Falls Church News-Press Editorial: No Surprise To Us Locals

The press release about voting reports mentioned by Bishop Minns, Anglican Churches Comply with Virginia Statute Requiring Reports of Their Congregations’ Votes can be found here (PDF).

The Living Church had this interview with Bishop Peter Lee Bishop Lee: Extension to 30-Day Standstill Agreement Possible.

51
Leave a Reply

avatar
3000
51 Comment threads
0 Thread replies
0 Followers
 
Most reacted comment
Hottest comment thread
24 Comment authors
Ford ElmsTundeDoug Taylor-WeisslaurenceMerseymike Recent comment authors
  Subscribe  
newest oldest
Notify of
Kurt
Guest
Kurt

Those who believe Akinola’s “spin” will probably also want to buy the bridge I have for sale here in Brooklyn.

Merseymike
Guest

What a load of nonsense.

When will these people realise that we are not interested in their ‘pastoral care’ – they talk about me as if I’m a walking problem needing ‘care’ Patronising or what?.

Nothing other than absolute acceptance will do – otherwise, they can stuff their church and their nasty, judgemental version of god where the sun don’t shine!

As for Akinola, they are welcome to their alliance with him – the sooner the reform mob go off and join him, the better for the rest of us.

Tobias Haller
Guest
Tobias Haller

Of course, the Nigerian Bill has absolutely nothing to do with strengthening marriage or family life; only the criminalization of same-sex marriage and family life, or any movement towards it. Akinola in this reminds me of the person who said she was not a vegetarian because she loved animals but because she hated vegetables.
I also note Akinolas’s efforts at shifting the issue and the responsibility. What a mealy-mouth he turns out to be, after all the bluster.

Ford Elms
Guest
Ford Elms

Akinola’s letter is a prime example of the use of pious words to cover hatred. How does one ‘address’ serious human rights concerns while supporting the very prison sentences that abrogate those rights? How does this action strengthen marriage and family life? Having a gay son or daughter sent to jail or living in fear and self loathing does not strengthen that family. For the family members of gay people to be afraid to support each other, and we must remember that the families of gay people in such cultures have a hard emotional road to walk as well, is… Read more »

Shawn+
Guest
Shawn+

The statements from Archbishop Akinola and Bishop Minns are not for their flocks–they know perfectly well with whom they have affiliated and for what reason. The public letters are rhetoric designed for the rest of us on the outside, to lay down a smokescreen to hide their actions and their intentions. Reminds me of other hate groups who used public forums to openly lie to the rest of the world about their behaviors and actions while inside they were plotting solutions to regional ills. It’s both sad and frightening that they think they will be able to deflect the truth.… Read more »

Colin Coward
Guest

One of the fault lines that is becoming more clear at the moment is the difference between individuals and organisations that are able to tell the truth and people who can only tell distortions of reality. This was true of the ‘covenant’ published last week, as so devastatingly shown by Tom Wright. It is even more sickeningly true of Archbishop Peter Akinola’s letter. I wonder who wrote it for him? The Anglican Church of Nigeria is clearly a church that seeks to punish homosexual persons. If they really believed that every person, regardless of their sexual orientation, is made in… Read more »

Cheryl Clough
Guest

I love it when some people decide to release press releases. Every press release has at least one gem that is useful. My favourite this time “I am troubled, however, by the silence of outside commentators concerning the rights of the clergy, Christians, and particularly converts to our Church whose lives are threatened and too often destroyed because of mob violence. I see no evidence of compassion for those whose rights are trampled on because of the imposition of unjust religious laws in many parts of the world. There seems to be a strange lack of interest in this issue…”… Read more »

Cheryl Clough
Guest

As a further comment. There is a schizoid assumption that one can look to resolve problems of violence but keep some areas “out of bounds”. When thinking through how to resolve the problems of terrorist theology, I had to think how such thinking evolved and where and how the continuums of manifestation occur. It became apparent that if one group is allowed to be violent e.g. because they represent a powerful State or advocate a pure theology; then you will have a romanticisation of violence. Similarly, if one group is allowed to be dehumanised or exempt from decent treatment, you… Read more »

Cynthia Gilliatt
Guest
Cynthia Gilliatt

Do Bishop Minns and Archbishop Akiinola expect anyone to believe them? What Bishop Akinola has said about gays and the proposed law in Nigeria is part of the public record. Martyn Minns’ association with the Archbishop and his diocese clearly allies him with the that stance. “We aren’t as bad as the Muslims” doesn’t inspire confidence. You can say that you love gays as a Christian until your face turns blue, but if you continue to support the proposed legislation in Nigeria, you are either a hypocrite or have such contempt for others’ intelligence that you think they won’t notice… Read more »

Robert Dodd
Guest
Robert Dodd

That Truro, Falls Church, and several smaller VA churches have seceded from TEC is no surprise. That they’ve chosen to fall in line with the most egregious arm of the Global South is tragic and will, I’m sure, flash back on those who voted to leave without thinking.

An old proverb says that he who lies down with dogs gets up with fleas. How long will it be till the Trurovians and Fallschurchites start to itch? Keep a light in the window, Bishop Lee!

Weiwen Ng
Guest

‘”We aren’t as bad as the Muslims” doesn’t inspire confidence.’

Indeed, Akinola’s words about a Muslim leader wanting immediate passage of the bill while an Anglican leader wanted to open it up to debate are troubling. it seems to be an attempt to place blame on Muslims.

we should recognize that there has been Muslim-Christian violence in Nigeria. at the same time, I think Akinola’s comments are irresponsible.

Diane Hanson
Guest
Diane Hanson

I think we need to keep track of who voted to leave and what Province they voted to join. The Church of the Apostles, Fairfax (hadn’t heard that they had voted yet); Church of the Word, Gainesville; Potomac Falls Episcopal Church, Sterling; St. Margaret’s, Woodbridge; St. Stephen’s, Heathsville; The Falls Church, Falls Church; and Truro Church, Fairfax, have all joined CANA? All Saints’, Woodbridge; Christ Our Lord Anglican Church, Lake Ridge; Church of the Holy Spirit, Ashburn; and South Riding Episcopal Church, Fairfax, have affiliated with the Church of Uganda? Church of the Epiphany, Herndon, and Our Saviour, Oatlands, have… Read more »

Pluralist
Guest

Are the Nigerian clergy allocating more time in their next year diaries for prison visiting of homosexual people, so that they can express their pastoral care for those they helped bung into prison?

Dallas Bob
Guest
Dallas Bob

“Nigerian congregations occupying Episcopal Churches” – This is 100% fact and one of the most succinct, brilliant summations of what has happened. I’m not surprised Mr. Minns is stung by it – what can he do but fumble for an answer when confronted with the absolute truth. Bishop Peter Lee may get the vote for line of the year!

Merseymike
Guest
Merseymike

At this rate one can imagine rather a lot of applications for asylum from Nigeria.

It really does show how low churches who wish to affiliate themselves to them have sunk. Good riddance to the lot of them.

Marshall Scott
Guest

I would like to see someone competent to comment on the Virginia statute. It would seem that the departing churches are depending on Virginia courts recognizing as an institution the Anglican Communion, so that association with Nigeria or with Uganda is simply choosing one side of a divided institution. On the other hand, if within the Anglican Communion provinces are truly autonomous, then association with Nigeria or Uganda is a step well beyond that. The statute would work well with divisions of congregations in congregational traditions; but we are not congregational. The Virginia courts should be able to tell the… Read more »

Greg
Guest
Greg

Isn’t this just doublespeak from Nigeria? This is the same Archbishop whose words had to be ‘reinterpreted’ after he appeared to issue barely veiled threats of retaliatory violence against Muslims, only a relatively short time ago. We were warned of such people coming and told to know them by their fruits (or perhaps not in this case!). We have seen this one’s fruits more than once in his actions and pronouncements: no matter how red and juicy the apple he proffers, it still seems poisonous to me.

Göran Koch-Swahne
Guest

Cheryl Clough wrote: “I would prefer to be like Abraham who cried over the loss of the citizens or David who hoped they would live long enough to realise the errors of their ways. Remember he did not kill Saul, even after he was anointed as replacement king. Instead, David trusted God and allowed God to play out His hand to resolve the problems with Saul.” Even more so, David punished the man who had taken Saul’s life in his own hands expecting a reward, as some do. Cynthia Gilliatt wrote: “I would not follow such a person across the… Read more »

Tunde
Guest
Tunde

Ford Elms has consistently written what he would have me tell him in much the same way many have always wrongly ascribed words to Abp. Akinola. You may want to go over your question and my answer. You will not find your allegation there. I used to get upset with such misrepresentations but I have since learnt it is usually a result of transferred aggression and ignoring such is wise. May I however stress that Christianity when truly practiced makes hatred of fellow humans almost impossible. I have publicly (on this blog) repeatedly professed my sincere love for homosexuals while… Read more »

Tunde
Guest
Tunde

Cheryl,

One cannot compare the blog prayers of a few commentators on Thinking Anglicans to the silence of a large and vocal press who would otherwise take up issues when there is the slightest trace of a church’s principled stand against what that section of the press holds dear.

We had people killed, churches, houses and shops burnt, and priests and bishops sent into hiding. It may be helpful to consider the news coverage of these with that of “Akinola wants to jail gays” which was never a statement of his.

Colin, as usual, I’d rather ignore.

Wishing everyone the joys of Christmas.

drdanfee
Guest
drdanfee

We will no doubt hear from all levels of the court review process in due time. Meanwhile, we have to just keep on following Jesus in TEC. There is plenty to challenge and occupy us, besides decoding the doublespeak that sometimes comes from Nigeria, or answering all the false witness accusations of apostasy typified by the most recently published evangelical covenant. How about an underground railroad between us and that greatly diverse contient of Africa? Good things could flow in all directions so far as we can manage. We could try doing without those institutional Anglican or governmental African structures… Read more »

Merseymike
Guest
Merseymike

We know you would rather ignore anyone who doesn’t agree with you, Tunde.

We know you support the legislation which makes doing so obligatory by throwing them into prison and stopping them meeting.

Cowardly and prejudiced – thats your ‘christianity’

Cheryl Clough
Guest

Tunde Thank you for acknowledging that blog prayers of TA contributors. You might find Jim Wallis’ latest book “God’s Politics” interesting. There’s a few others who cover similar ground from different perspectives. Like yourself, Jim laments the bias in the mainstream media. His concern is that poverty has become disconnected from justice, that war and violence have become legitimised, and that the media portrays this as being condoned by religious leaders. On the issue of the links between poverty and justice, this was my response to one outrageous conservative voice article I found that denied any correlation http://www.wombatwonderings.org/plugins/newsfeed.cgi?rm=content&plugin_data_id=15470 You might… Read more »

Leonardo Ricardo
Guest
Leonardo Ricardo

Silence Please. Tunde, let’s take another moment of “silence” and “ponder” a pre-Christmas message from your Archbishop Akinola of Nigeria: “…To opine that, unknown to humans, God had hitherto created some people to be homosexuals and lesbians (i.e., sexual orientations) is tantamount to creating God in our own image and introducing a CANCEROUS element into the fabric of the African understanding of marriage and family. Homosexuality and lesbianism, like divorce, breed a society of single parents which gives rise to a generation of BASTARDS. And in the context of much poverty and lack of education, this further produces an ill-bred… Read more »

Leonardo Ricardo
Guest
Leonardo Ricardo

LGBT Nigerian Christmas Cheer continued: It’s “tomorrow” now Tunde and your Bishopness and it’s quite clear your “adventurous” diocesean border crossing and behind-the-scenes manipulating (everywhere/anywhere) ARE dangerous anti-Windsor action of introducing/supporting incarceration and social outcasting of homosexuals in Nigeria, Changing Attitudes Anglican Nigierans and at OUR sacred LGBT families and with our LGBT friends at the Episcopal Church and Anglican Communion. You Bishop Akinola and Canon Tunde have further harmed everyone at ALL levels of Epicopalian/Anglican Church life. In truth, it IS hard for me to look forward to welcoming the birth of Christ with a hatecrime generating/Episcopal Church “poaching”… Read more »

counterlight
Guest
counterlight

All of the sudden professions of Christian love for Gay folk by the Nigerian hierarchy mean nothing until they rescind their support for the antigay legislation before the Nigerian parliament.

Colin Coward
Guest

Dear Canon Tunde – you would rather ignore me? Why? This is how a senior member of the Church of Nigeria acknowledges the comments and criticisms of a gay Anglican Christian? Jesus Christ makes it impossible for committed Christians to hate or maintain hatred against any other person. This is a challenge I take utterly seriously, with great difficulty sometimes, when I am being humiliated and treated as less than human. What Christianity doesn’t always do successfully is teach people how to deal with the anger we sometimes naturally feel. I am not sure what Canon Tunde’s sincere love for… Read more »

Marshall Scott
Guest

Canon Tunde: The legislation that would criminalize people (who may or man not be gay or lesbian) coming together to discuss issues of discrimination against gay and lesbian persons is a concern. Surely the Church of Nigeria – Anglican could pursue an end to discrimination against persons who are gay and lesbian persons with the same energy that has been put into ending discrimination against persons designated “Osu” or the equivalent in Nigerian society. I have seen on the Church’s web site that ending that caste designation, which some human rights organizations have compared to apartheid, is a part of… Read more »

Ford Elms
Guest
Ford Elms

“Ford Elms has consistently written what he would have me tell him in much the same way many have always wrongly ascribed words to Abp. Akinola. You may want to go over your question and my answer. You will not find your allegation there” The exchange was earlier this year. I do not have time to find it now, but after Christmas I will. I posited the hypothetical situation that Western Christians, if they are going to pass measures that will call down violence and death on Christians half a world away, should be ready to cross the ocean and… Read more »

Tunde
Guest
Tunde

Ford, Hope you get the archive and place my entire statement side by side with “told me he would rather throw me in jail than accept my support for persecuted Christians” TA readers need to we know whether I am denying or simply saying I am being misrepresented. I also remember asking about your attitude if I am to come to your country to promote practice of pedophiles. I don’t think you will fight your country’s laws which would jail me. Yes I know the two are different but the issue here is that I believe (as does the official… Read more »

Merseymike
Guest
Merseymike

Anyone, Tunde, who uses that as an example simply displays their homophobia.

There are plenty of things that are ‘incompatible with scripture’, from your conservative point of view. But, you do not criminalise them, nor do you persecute those who are associated with them.

You sum up so well why your church and the Anglican Communion which contains your church is rotten to the core. The sooner it splits, the better

Doug Taylor-Weiss
Guest

You gotta love the way Colin Coward lays down the gauntlet with Tunde: Either you approve of what I do or you are guilty of hating your Christian brother. This, I take it, is an example of the vaunted “listening process”? You hateful people keep listening to us until you buckle under and say what we want to hear! Until then, we accuse you of the worst sin a Christian can be guilty of! Coward hasn’t got a shred of evidence from reason, Scripture or tradition for claiming that homosexuality is “a natural human state created by God,” but that… Read more »

Göran Koch-Swahne
Guest

Do you put paedophiles into jail in Nigeria Tunde?

Pluralist
Guest

I do not hate paedophiles but neither do I make this artificial distinction of condemning the sin and not the sinner. I’d put the sinner in prison for carrying out paedophilia because it is harmful, exploitative and done without consent. I don’t go around condemning people for wearing mixed fibres, saying I make a distinction between the sinner and the sin. In fact I ignore it. And as for the New Testament, the argument is about faithfulness and a view of idolatry, not about being homosexual. But even if it was about being homosexual per se, it makes no difference.… Read more »

Merseymike
Guest
Merseymike

You can’t have a ‘listening process’ with people in jail, who you compare to paedophiles, Doug,

But lets be honest – you aren’t interested in listening, unless we agree to submit to your opinion.

You’ll be waiting a long time.

Ford Elms
Guest
Ford Elms

Tunde, Posted in the thread ‘Nigeria’, on Sept. 21, 2006: “Ford, YES! If you’d cross the ocean to come and lead people I love so much in what I believe is SIN, I’d try to discourage you, but if you insist, I will pray you end up in jail. Luke 17: 1-2. While I will not lay my own hands on you, I won’t stop anyone from doing so.” Now, you may argue that you didn’t say you personally would throw me in jail. You would however pray for it. A very fine distinction. I have to wonder if you… Read more »

Göran Koch-Swahne
Guest

I did not intervene in this, saying that if my memory does not fail me… Ford is correct… because my memory often fails me – my parents always said You will not become a professor, you a r e one!

But now it proves my memory did not fail me this once – and what I wonder is, whatever made Tunde even try to deny this?

Christopher Shell
Guest
Christopher Shell

Colin Coward writes: ‘You cannot love someone if you believe that the way they love someone else is an aberration.’ It might be helpful to do a critique of the specific points raised: (1) Can one love someone else if one believes they are habitual sinners? Undoubtedly. If fact, there is no-one who does not, since we all love ourselves. Even my 7 month old baby whom I love to bits is not a paragon of altruism. (2) Can one love someone with whom one disagrees regarding one matter? of course, since there is no-one with whom any of us… Read more »

Ford Elms
Guest
Ford Elms

Failure to adequately provide for ‘plausible denial’?

Colin Coward
Guest

Doug Taylor-Weiss refers to me, a brother Christian, by my surname alone, an abusive act in the UK and I assume, internationally. He sneers at me in his first paragraph and calls me a ‘hateful person’ who is guilty of the worst sin a Christian can be guilty of. I don’t agree that homosexuality is a sin. If I agreed with Doug’s premise, would other conservatives like to support his statement that it is ‘the worst sin’? I am not asking anyone to approve of what I do nor accusing them of being guilty for hating me, a Christian brother.… Read more »

Tunde
Guest
Tunde

No! Ford, busy with Christmas activities and do not forget that internet access in Africa is still light years behind that of the western world. Even the director of communication of CofN cannot boast of 24hr service. Thanks for the quote. Please compare “LEAD…in .. SIN, I’d try to discourage you, but if you insist, I will pray” to your “ told me he would rather THROW me in jail than accept my SUPPORT for…” . I will appreciate you for once accept and apologize for the misrepresentation before trying to bury that fact by raising other issues. I presume… Read more »

Doug Taylor-Weiss
Guest

I am so sorry that Colin Coward misunderstood my earlier post. In a style I often thoughtlessly use, I was repeating what I heard him saying. I should have put quotation marks around it, but I didn’t. I understood him to be telling Tunde, “If you disapprove of what I do, you therefore are guilty of hating me, your Christian brother. Nothing less than fully endorsing the behavior I have decided is OK counts as love. Unless and until you agree with me on the morality of homosexual acts you condemn yourself as hateful.” Please note the quotation marks. I… Read more »

Merseymike
Guest
Merseymike

Doug ; I think your lack of empathy is displayed by your failure to recognise the effect of anti-gay attitudes on many gay people, particularly those who do not find being different an easy thing to come to terms with. Its not simply about ‘crossing people’ in these cases, but literally contributing to their destruction. I have had to deal with some of the casualties. I am glad to say that a more open climate in the UK and the understandable rejection of the church by young gay people blunts the effect of these statements, but the pain is all… Read more »

Ford Elms
Guest
Ford Elms

Well, Tunde, I was prepared for you to say that I had taken you out of context (not much of an argument) or that I had misunderstood (a more powerful argument) or that we had been having a passionate discussion and that your comment was in that spirit and I was blowing it out of proportion (a much more powerful argument). I was not prepared for you to deny that you said what, to me at least, you actually did say! Please clarify. How is standing in support of oppressed Christians in Nigeria “leading… into sin”? How is praying for… Read more »

laurence
Guest
laurence

‘…referring to someone by surname only is hardly abusive. It is, in fact, standard in academic discussions ..’Doug T-W

Ah, now I see where this discussion has gone awry.
It is far from being an ‘academic’discussion to many of us –however one chooses to address others here. I think this was also the burden of merseymike’s post. This is about real life, real pain, real lives.

Careless talk still costs lives Doug.

laurence
Guest
laurence

Colin you have demonised no-one.

Doug in the Uk we have long since moved beyond your ‘shreds of evidence’ to a position of acceptance of lgbt people; and state-sponsored and provided Civil Partnerships for same-sex couples.

Don’t you listen to the Archers ?! : – )

laurence
Guest
laurence

Why I am I thinking of Dominical pearls and swine ?

My fear is that the likes of Tunde and Doug wouldn’t have a change of h e a r t even if one were to return from the dead to warn them.

Which members of y o u r family, friends and wider circle are afraid to open their heats to YOU, and to tell you that, in truth, they are gay or lesbian ?

Sobering thought…

Doug Taylor-Weiss
Guest

Dear folks, Scary as this might be for you to contemplate, members of my very closest circle of friends have already told me that, in truth, they are gay or lesbian. Yes, imagine! And I love them still. Yes, really! And they are still among my most intimate friends. Horrors! They are not “abused” by the fact that I find no way to legitimize their sexual behavior. But, then, we don’t talk about such behavior in our friendships because I do not know their hearts and I do not presume to judge their souls. I do have some responsibility in… Read more »

Ford Elms
Guest
Ford Elms

“along comes somebody who objects on moral grounds to hunting, even wants to outlaw it. Must the hunter then languish in the “abuse” and “hurt” and “destruction” that this moral crusader has inflicted on him? “ A very good comparison in some respects. Given that the animal rights industry uses lies, slander, and mistrepresentation of the truth to oppose hunting, I would suggest that hunters have every right to protest the ‘abuse’ of being lied about and slandered around the globe. By the same token, gay people and their supporters have every right to protest the slanders of those who… Read more »

Tunde
Guest
Tunde

Ford, sorry, no deal! An apology may assure me that it won’t happen again. Otherwise, I m not prepared to give you futher ammo.

Have a peaceful year.