Thinking Anglicans

David Roseberry writes

David Roseberry from Christ Church Plano in Dallas, Texas, which disassociated from the Episcopal Church (ECUSA) and the Diocese of Dallas in September, has written at great length about “The Journey of Christ Church, Plano”. Christ Church has this statement on its website:

As of September 15, 2006, Christ Church is a parish under the temporary pastoral oversight of The Rt. Rev. William (Bill) Godfrey, Bishop of Peru, and is also a member of the worldwide Anglican Communion.

More detail is in Q&A About Our Future.
.
The material is published at the Stand Firm website and is in five parts:
Breaking Up is Hard to Do
Are You My Mother?
Considering CANA
Considering AMiA
The Letter, Lambeth, and a Little Bit More

Subscribe
Notify of
guest
41 Comments
Oldest
Newest
Inline Feedbacks
View all comments
mynsterpreost (=David Rowett)
mynsterpreost (=David Rowett)
14 years ago

When someone bridles like this at the mention of (yawn yawn) ‘Christ our Mother’ (resisting temptation to re-open thread of a few weeks back), they’re either showing a wilful negligence of Christian spirituality and imagery going back to Jesus and Paul in the supplement to the Scriptures (after all, when Paul refers to a milk diet for young faithful, he ain’t talking Jersey cows is he?) or despite protestations of open-mindedness are going in with a deliberate mindset seeking to find pretexts for a sniffy walk-out. I once knew someone who had perfected the art of flouncing out all offended-like… Read more »

Dallas Bob
Dallas Bob
14 years ago

When David Roseberry was an Episcopal priest, we had to care. Now that he has renounced his vows, he is no different than any other bible church pastor. I am simply uninterested in anything he has to say.

choirboyfromhell
choirboyfromhell
14 years ago

There you go. Buy yourself a new church to disassociate yourself with those awful LGBT people.

Marshall Scott
14 years ago

This is an interesting opus, and an interesting perspective. I’m interested in his perspective on the organizations and people of both CANA and AMiA. It is a more “inside” view than we commonly get. I was struck by a number of things, but I will only speak to one. He wrote in his second essay, “I have heard for over two decades in ECUSA that God was going a new thing among us all. I can’t believe it. I don’t believe that God does new things… He makes all things new… but He doesn’t do new things. The last new… Read more »

drdanfee
drdanfee
14 years ago

Imagine a contemporary Anglican priest longing for the days when he or people under his orders or with his blessing could heave pikes at other people in Jesus’ name. And call it gospel living. As a believer I can imagine feeling nostalgia for a great many past moments in much of our known history, but pike heaving is just a bit outside my own fallible personal boundaries. I’ve resigned in that sense as just that sort of soldier of faith, for reasons of conscience. In other words, I read and I prayed and when I listened, I heard Jesus telling… Read more »

ruidh
ruidh
14 years ago

It seems the Usual Suspects have given up on some dramatic action at the February Primates Meeting and have begun moving on to a longer term strategy. It’s difficult to keep up the appearance of a CRISIS and yet to have one’s goal continually receding back out of reach. TEC is not in danger of being evicted from the Communion, so focus needs to be shifted away from that event.

the goal is to hold the GS and Network together and in the Communion until their ultimate goal of supplanting TEC in the Communion is achievable.

Jim Naughton
14 years ago

Was anyone else struck by the fact that this leader of the Anglican right just learned that the Primates do not meet as a legislative body? I mentioned this on Daily Episcopalian when these pieces were first posted on Stand Firm, but I still can’t get over it.

John N. Wall
John N. Wall
14 years ago

People have been leaving the Episcopal Church for decades over this or that issue. What seems a constant is that when they leave, they fragment into smaller and smaller units. Clearly those departing are congregationalists. Their primary goal is to be a big fish in an increasingly smaller pond. There are now five congregations in my small city (of about 350,000) that claim to be “Anglican.” No two of them are affiliated with the same larger organization. Here we have a repetition of this pattern. Christ Church Plano leaves ECUSA and goes its own way rather than linking up with… Read more »

Andrew
Andrew
14 years ago

Did you notice that the problems in the Episcopal Church were mentioned in today’s funeral at the National Cathedral by the homilist Fr. Certain, the Ford family’s pastor from California? He revealed that President Ford felt that there should be no split over issues of sexuality and women’s leadership, and asked Fr. Certain to work for reconciliation, prior to General Convention. It is all too easy to overlook the importance and power of the Episcopal Church. Small perhaps in membership, under 3 million, but many times larger in loose affiliations and affection, it remains the Church of large numbers of… Read more »

JPM
JPM
14 years ago

Roseberry apparently believes that God has done something new with regard to remarriage after divorce.

Ian Montgomery
Ian Montgomery
14 years ago

Dallas Bob writes: – “When David Roseberry was an Episcopal priest, we had to care. Now that he has renounced his vows, he is no different than any other bible church pastor. I am simply uninterested in anything he has to say.” I am sure that Bishop Godfrey of Peru (who has temporary oversight) regards David as an Anglican priest. He is simply another who has renounced has vows to TEC. He has not renounced them to God. Actually I am sure that +Dallas still regards David as a (Anglican) priest. I am not even sure that it matters what… Read more »

John Henry
John Henry
14 years ago

Good riddance of David Roseberry! I sincerely hope that the usual suspects who form the Network curia will soon follow him to the exit. What keeps them in TEC is the silver and gold in the store. If they were honorable Christian gentlemen, they wouldn’t covet those. Which are the greater sins – the warm sins of the flesh, of which they accuse TEC’s leadership, or the sins of human pride and covetousness? As the 100th ABC, Michael Ramsey, used to remark (in: Nashotah House Lectures, The Anglican Spirit, ed. Dale Coleman), you can drive out of the church the… Read more »

Leonardo Ricardo
Leonardo Ricardo
14 years ago

“Christ Church Plano claims still to be part of the Anglican Communion, but its link to the larger body is so remote, so distant, so purely nominal that the one thing that can safely be said about it is that it will not have any impact on the daily life of Christ Church Plano” John N. Wall I wouldn’t count on that one because the Anglican Peruvian Diocese isn’t much of a Diocese at all (Venables was the Bishop earlier and it remains sparkless/spineless and nearly aimless) but Peru/Southern Cone can use the “chavitos” (cash) big time (plus any upgrade… Read more »

dmitri
dmitri
14 years ago

This is from the Christ Church Plano website: “Q: Is this all about the sexuality issue? A: No. As in our culture, the issue of human sexuality is a central flashpoint, but it is a symptom of a larger issue. Regardless of where the culture goes and what the culture endorses, the church cannot bless what is not God’s best for people. The church should never speak against the clear teaching of Scripture. ECUSA has chosen its future and it is very different from our own, and thus we must let the denomination go on without us.” I find it… Read more »

kieran crichton
kieran crichton
14 years ago

Excuse me if I seem a little impatient here, but has anyone noticed the undertow of emotional blackmail in all this? It starts in the title and just gets more blatant. These people never had an argument to make: only justifications, and the hypocrisy in the personal circumstances of Fr Roseberry is enormous. For the rest of his opus, it’s like wading into ever-thicker treacle. Could anyone set these essays to music? If the reasoning were truly theological, then there’s the potential to turn it into poetry (other than satire!). Like the WR, these apologia defy poetry, and evade any… Read more »

David Walker
David Walker
14 years ago

I’m not normally the defender of conservative breakaways, but I fear some of the attacks here are off beam. Bill Godfrey is no “puritan” clone. He’s an anglo-catholic and fairly mainstream in that tradition. He and the Diocese of Peru are doing fantastic work in creating church communities genuinely focussed on the needs of the poor in the shanty towns (unlike both the disengaged pentecostals and the RC’s who swung to the right under JP2). The link between Plano parish and Peru is longstanding not opportunistic. The Southern Cone is not monochrome either. Whilst I wouldn’t myself follow the line… Read more »

Deborah
Deborah
14 years ago

Yes Andrew, I too heard the affirmation to reconcile from the National Cathedral pulpit on January 2, 2006 during the funeral of President Gerald Ford. While the minister quoted the departed President of the USA, Christ came through clearly saying: “Reread the Gospels as my servant Gerald has done. Hear this. Separation is not the way of God. Reconcile in my name and inherit God’s Creation”. Thank God we are blessed with the mercy to hear God, still speaking through our chaotic(ordained!)buzz. Ready for the reporters and cameras we smile as we debate…”I am God’s true Anglican, not you’…No way…Way”!… Read more »

perry butler
perry butler
14 years ago

small point: Greg Venables was formerly Bp of Bolivia not Peru;William Godfrey was formerly the (first) Bishop of Uruguay.I’m not sure there are many more than 20,000 “signed op Anglicans in Peru/Bolivia/Chile /Argentina/Paraguay altogether.It does seem odd for these Bishops to be offering alternative episcopal oversight at such a great distance and to congregations so culturally different-you would imagine they wd have enough to do at home. And it divides S America since Brasil (itself sadly Recife schism -where i gather there are now 4 different Anglican churches) will continue in communion with TEC .What is the state of health… Read more »

drdanfee
drdanfee
14 years ago

Funny thing is, solidifying a closed conservative-new puritan circle as the worldwide definition of Anglicanism will only transmit the realignment shocks along further fault lines, way outside TEC as such. At minimum, Canada and CoE are also quite ripe for the new institutional pruning? If the point of the realignment is to finally achieve one, closed, final, conservative approach to reading and redacting scripture (plus tradition, plus doctrine, plus confession? An Evangelical Magisterium?) – it is a fine strategy for shooting yourselves in the foot. You define away any real basis for open-ended inquiry, since you already know all of… Read more »

Cynthia Gilliatt
Cynthia Gilliatt
14 years ago

“offering alternative episcopal oversight at such a great distance and to congregations so culturally different” “Culturally different” would describe the city/town of Plano, also. The American Library Association keeps track each year of all the books that come under challenge in public libraries and school libraries. They publish a list, and briefly note the reason for the challenge and the place where it happens, and the dispostion sometimes. A lot of the usual suspects show up: the Harry Potter books, Judy Bloom’s novels for teens,Huck Finn, Madelene l’Engle [withcraft], Heather has Two Mommies, Catcher in the Rye etc etc. One… Read more »

Ford Elms
Ford Elms
14 years ago

David Walker,
“I can imagine how a divorced and remarried priest might see himself as a repentent sinner”

Like you, I don’t follow the argument. I’m sure he would feel that way, however, the cynical world would ask: “How can you have repented of your sin without repudiating your second marriage?” I would ask the same thing. This is the kind of thing that my atheist and agnostic friends see as hypocrisy. I can’t argue with them.

Leonardo Ricardo
Leonardo Ricardo
14 years ago

David Walker, whoops, sorry, I guess I got my small Southern Cone Dioceses mixed up…+Bishop Venables may be a real mover, shaker, Evangelizer (but not in South America)…anyhow, having traveled, and worked, throughout South America, Central America, The Caribbean and Mexico for decades I can strongly UNDERSCORE the fact that Anglicanism is grossly underdeveloped in both Bolivia and Peru and the Southern Cone (they have mostly home style meetings/services and not much of anything in the “campo”). LGBT people are alive at EVERY level of pueblo life in Latin America…there is a great need for EVERYONE to be loved, embraced… Read more »

Pisco Sours
14 years ago

David Walker: If Roseberry+ were truly repentant, he would either go back to his first wife or remain single and celibate until his ex-wife dies.

But I’m sorry, heterosexualists never get called to celibacy, do they? My mistake.

Cheryl Clough
14 years ago

There is a thread that is common to Sydney, the perspective that Jesus was God’s last foray of intervention into humanity’s history before Jesus returns to wipe us all out and give the “pure” their new heaven and earth. Anything less than complete obliteration can not be recognized and is said to come from “the evil one”. One of the main reasons I became so bold is this is a deeply entrenched paradigm. First I was treated as a slightly insane naive child. Then as someone who was making too much of coincidences. Then they went into damage control and… Read more »

John Henry
John Henry
14 years ago

Today, during his eulogy at Grace Episcopal Church, Grand Rapids, MI, President Jimmy Carter, too, touched on the theme of the divisions in Christian churches over the acceptance of WO and of gays/lesbians as true children of God. Apparently, it was a concern which the two U.S.former Presidents shared with each other, especially President Gerald R Ford, a licensed lay reader on the Episcopal Church, troubled by the ‘unnecessary’ divisions with dissenting congregations shopping around for complying bishops. Deborah’s comment is right on the mark. It reads: “Yes Andrew, I too heard the affirmation to reconcile from the National Cathedral… Read more »

Prior Aelred
14 years ago

David Walker — I am sure you are quite right about the situation in Peru and very likely how Canon (a title given him by a bishop in The Episcopal Church which he has rejected — of course the British monarch still retains the title “Defender of the Faith” granted by the pope, so there’s that) Roseberry defends his situation in his own mind. However, the traditional teaching of the church would be that he should return to his first wife (assuming she is still alive, which I understand to be the case) OR remain celibate. Mind you, I myself… Read more »

John Henry
John Henry
14 years ago

The Living Church today broke the news of another Camp Allen meeting of ‘Windsor’ bishops convened by the Bishop of Texas, and attended on ++Rowan Cantuar’s behalf by the C of E Bishop of Winchester, together with the Primate of Tanzania (whose HoB uninvited and distanced itself from PB Schori) and the South American Primate designated to chair the Anglican Covenant Drafting Committee. On the Episcopal Majority Website a Texas priest raised the following concerns: “Archbishop Williams is, through his secretary, speaking with Bishop Wimberly. It’s likely that he is doing the same thing with others – perhaps Duncan, almost… Read more »

Andrew
Andrew
14 years ago

To John Henry: I just heard the Grand Rapids service on C-SPAN, and the divisions in the Episcopal Church were indeed mentioned again, by President Carter. He mentioned how he and his friend Gerald Ford were opposed to divisions in both denominations. What Carter did not say was that he himself stood up to the Southern Baptists, of which he was the most famous and important member, when they insisted that a wife must be subservient to her husband. I believe he may have resigned from the denomination, but I am not sure whether he has returned. In both cases,… Read more »

Kurt
Kurt
14 years ago

“Let’s all hope, and pray, that ++Rowan Cantuar will see the light and, during 2007, return to academia. His unconscionable conduct plays into the hands of those who would like to reduce the Anglican Communion into a purist, narrow-minded, confessional sect.”— John Henry

Archbishop Williams is a disgrace and should resign at once!

Cynthia Gilliatt
Cynthia Gilliatt
14 years ago

“when in Washington they attend the Episcopal church across the street from the White House, known as the “church of the presidents.” ” I have a friend whose partner is a long time friend of the rector’s wife, and she says that Bush goes there because it is close and easy to arrange security. He sure as heck must not attend to the [so I am told] very progressive sermons. St. John’s has an extensive ministry to the homeless. A few years ago, one of their regulars died – there was no family for him, but the church held well… Read more »

mynsterpreost (=David Rowett)
mynsterpreost (=David Rowett)
14 years ago

Slightly at right angles to the topic, I know, but something I heard yesterday reminded me that there are a lot of folks who are confused and deeply distressed within the dissenting congregations. One of my people is ex-The Falls Church (yes, she’s a long way from home, came to do a dig on our C10 church and never went back) and is devastated to learn that people whom she knew and respected all that time ago are walking away from — well, from places like here where she worships very happily. Regardless of what happens to the ‘mobile’ congregations,… Read more »

John D
John D
14 years ago

For what it’s worth, Jimmy Carter is no longer a Southern Baptist. I believe he resigned when that church, at convention, changed its fundamental belief in “Jesus Christ” to “the Bible”. Many other disagreements, as well.

Cheryl Clough
14 years ago

David They don’t give a toss about the people in the wastelands. They deserve to be there to die in their sin as unrepentant sinners. Just ask them. When I was researching in 2005 to try and work out what was happening to me, I found that this was not isolated behaviour. There were many, many studies and some support groups being set up to help people recover from bullying sect-like church behaviour. I referred this research to the Sydney diocese and my local ministers at the time. The risks of ostracisation include addictions, marriage breakdowns, nervous breakdowns, suicide, job… Read more »

David Huff
David Huff
14 years ago

Good Lord, I can’t believe +Roseberry is getting so much press (not that I blame Simon for it, he’s just reporting on something which already exists). As a former parishioner of his church, I can attest that Kieran Crichton’s comments above are pretty much right on the nose. Everything there is overly emotional justification for pre-conceived notions & modern, extremist socio-political views. It’s quite frankly the least Episcopal parish I ever attended (and I grew up in a *very* low church setting). A local lady, well-known in the diocese for her waggish sense of humor, has dubbed it “hardshell Baptists… Read more »

Sarah
Sarah
14 years ago

What does this bit mean? (from “Breaking up…”)
“If the Windsor Report had not been rejected (which it was) and the MDG not been embraced whole hog (which they were) I would still be an Episcopal priest.”
I thought the MDG was the list of goals like “universal primary education”? Can someone in the US explain why that was seen as Such An ‘Orrible ‘Eresy?

Simon Sarmiento
14 years ago

What’s more, Sarah, his comment that you quote about the Windsor Report is odd in the light of the following comment slightly later on:

But more recently the biblical truth was not being debated. The Windsor Report had successfully changed the subject. It turned the debate to a nearly impossible argument to win: unity. The discussion of the church was not now about “if” one side was right or wrong in what was taught, but rather “how” we could all get along with each other.

He lists this among the reasons why he has to leave.

Prior Aelred
14 years ago

Simon —

Maybe what Fr Roseberry means by “rejecting” the Windsor Report is “accepting” the Windsor Report (or something) — but the important thing to keep in mind is that anything that The Episcopal Church does is, ipso facto, wrong & therefore grounds for departure.

Now all is clear!

Simon Sarmiento
14 years ago

The name that David Walker was reaching for, as Bishop of Peru after David Evans, is in fact Alan Winstanley.

laurence
laurence
14 years ago

Though himself given a second chance David Roseberry would deny one to others.

JPM
JPM
14 years ago

>>>Can someone in the US explain why that was seen as Such An ‘Orrible ‘Eresy? Sarah, it has to do with right wing politics, which is not surprising, since the so-called “orthodox” in the U.S. are more often than not political reactionaries: let’s not forget that both Truro and Falls Church are well known for the Bush apparatchiki who go there, people like Alberto Gonzales and Oliver North and Porter Goss (former CIA director under Bush). The far right in the U.S. has hated the UN since it was founded and is equally opposed to “government giveaway programs,” like food… Read more »

Ford Elms
Ford Elms
14 years ago

JPM,
Yes to your last two paragraphs. The latter is perhaps something that can be argued, and no doubt the conservatives will now start accusing us of the kind of “persecution complex” that seems to play such a role in their formulations of the current debate. The former is something I have been hammering on at for quite a while, but seeing no insight into it from the other side.

41
0
Would love your thoughts, please comment.x
()
x