Thinking Anglicans

yet another Akinola profile

The newspaper coverage of him continues. Now the Christian Science Monitor has An African archbishop finds common ground in Virginia.

Don’t overlook David Roseberry’s account of his meeting with Archbishop Akinola either, part of the set of articles previously linked here.

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Davis d'Ambly
Davis d'Ambly
14 years ago

The comments on Roseberry’s piece are very telling and sad.

Cynthia Gilliatt
Cynthia Gilliatt
14 years ago

What can anyone say to someone who thinks gays – who are fighting to be able to be married – are against marriage? How many hererosexaul marriages crumble into the dust because somewhere in the world a gay couple does get legally married? The animal analogies are just sick. The Bible says a lot more about usury and the mistreatment of widows and orphans than it supposedly says about gay people. I don’t hear anything from ++Akinola comparing usurers, or those who take advantage of the poor in other ways to animals. Those who have left TEC to ally themselves… Read more »

mynsterpreost (=David Rowett)
mynsterpreost (=David Rowett)
14 years ago

“Akinola gave his Christmas Day message from a lectern on the church’s rotating altar.”

Another example of spin?

mynsterpreost (=David Rowett)
mynsterpreost (=David Rowett)
14 years ago

The argument that we should be grateful that Anglican-influenced lawmaking on homosexuality in Nigeria is less harsh than sharia law is akin to celebrating the abolition of castration and disembowelling as an intrinsic part of capital punishment (‘hanging, dawing and quartering’). No ethicist would maintain that something was moral by dint of being less appallingly immoral than a rival course of action, at least when neither course of action was necessary. Consequently, we must believe that the Archbishop of Abuja believes that jailing those who ‘promote’ homosexuality is not only a better alternative than judicial murder under sharia (and there… Read more »

laurence
laurence
14 years ago

Archiepiscopal Species-ism gone mad! You would think a primate would know better!

We are animals. Presumably from the Latin as animated beings —
anima-ls.

The eyes of all look to Thee O Lord and Thou givest them their (our) meat in due season.

Ford Elms
Ford Elms
14 years ago

“He sees homosexual activity as a sin and violation of God’s law, but he does not condemn people out of hand.”

No, he just wants them in jail for 5 years, where, presumably, it will be easier to “welcome them” into the churches, I guess because that makes it easier to know where they are, thus easier to evangelize? Or because 5 years in jail will inculcate the proper amount of fear of the power of the Church, and, by extension, of My Lord of Abuja?

drdanfee
drdanfee
14 years ago

from ABN Akinola: Summary Errors of Fact, Built on Ignorance/Prjeudice (1) “Homosexuality seeks to destroy marriage as we know it, unity as we know it, family life as we know it … Some facts? = homosexuality is a variation in human nature, entirely within the typical range of human diversity, is probably a complex good outcome of nature/nurture causes, and in itself causes no disability or impairment any more than heterosexuality does … families or unity are not destroyed by welcoming their LGBTQ offspring, but rather, deepened and strengthened (2) When God created man, he saw man was alone and… Read more »

Pluralist
14 years ago

Watching the Archbishop yesterday (repeated late as well as shown early) he said it would have to be seen what the mind of the C of E was regarding a covenant, and up to TEC to decide regarding its place… If it all centres on this issue as the crucial element, or this crucial element, are we really saying that there would be a covenant with Nigeria but not one with TEC? The reasoning of this article of those allying themselves now with Nigeria (and similar) is so repulsive (and on this issue) that it digs an even bigger hole… Read more »

Leonardo Ricardo
14 years ago

I could/can see it… The flow of the puritans caftan/pj’s and the wrap of his headpiece as he emerges/makes his entrance/appearance into the not-so-discreet and well populated common area. He commeth! The loving and “angelic” face of smiling/dimpled hatred as +Akinola simultaneously uses “endorsing” behind-the-scenes sneaky actions/tactics in support of hatefilled and potentially murderous exclusion of Episcopalian and Anglican *others* by jailing LGBT Christians/Muslims and their supportive families and friends in NIGERIA. SWISH goes the supple white fabric as the opening act of his dangerous and deceptive “show of shows” is staged in a Hotel Lobby in London. Act Two… Read more »

Prior Aelred
14 years ago

Honest question, can The Church of England sign a Covenant with any teeth without the agreement of Parliament?

My understanding is that The Church of England can’t even issue a Book of Common Prayer, so I wondred about this — e.g., does Porvoo actually mean anything or is it essentially a statement of good will, like Archbishop Runcie signing a statement with Pope Shenouda agreeing that the problem with Chalcedon was just a misunderstanding?

Maduka
Maduka
14 years ago

I speak as a Nigerian. Do you think Akinola is a Westerner? Do you know how Nigerians think and react? Why are you expecting him to react like a Westerner? What on earth will it take you people to understand that you are not up against Akinola but the vast majority of Nigerians (Muslim and Christian)? What on earth will make you understand that you understand that you are not dealing with a Western problem in a Western Nation? What on earth will get you to understand that the progressive Western concept of Christianity is vastly different from the African… Read more »

Cheryl Clough
Cheryl Clough
14 years ago

Maduka It could be said that there is an assumption that people outside of Nigeria/Africa have not faced the same obstacles as yourself. The people of South Africa faced huge injustices under Apartheid, yet they found the way forward did not involve elitism or exclusiveness. Shunning 2-5% of your population will not solve your bigger pictures. And if people as horrible as you say, why does your credibility in their eyes matter to you anyway? As you shun so you will be shunned. Look to Joseph, he faced all those obstacles and yet managed to bring forth God’s compassion –… Read more »

Maduka
Maduka
14 years ago

Cheryl,

I have no problems with your POV. The problem is greater than either of us. I want you to understand what we are up against.

The tone of conversation in the Western media / West does not show that there is an understanding of what the factors at play are.

Ford Elms
Ford Elms
14 years ago

Maduka, What will make you understand that this is not a racial or postcolonial issue? This is not the evil white people trying to treat their formor colonies as if they still were colonies. This is an issue of human rights. You do not want to “be bad to homosexuals”, why then do you want to throw us in jail? This IS homophobia, and it IS the problem. Homosexuality is not some Western thing, it is part of the human experience. Or do you think Westerners somehow imported it into Africa? What will make you understand that your concept of… Read more »

Merseymike
Merseymike
14 years ago

Therefore, Maduka, you have your Christianity, suited to your culture, and we can have ours. Yours has no appeal to me.

And lets split the Anglican Communion as soon as we can so that can be achieved.

Maduka
Maduka
14 years ago

Ford Elms,

Nigeria’s problem is not gay rights, Nigeria’s problem is HUMAN RIGHTS.

Cheryl,

South Africa solved its HUMAN RIGHTS problem before it resolved its gay rights problem. (Infact homosexuals were at the forefront of the anti-aparteid movement).

If you could read “The Next Christendom” by Jenkins, you will get more perspective.

John Robison
John Robison
14 years ago

Maduka,

That you would so blithly toss homosexuals to the wolves is what makes so many of us seem insensitive. That His Lorship +Abuja hates me, personally and would have me arrested for being in a committed relationship makes me think less of him.

Ford Elms
Ford Elms
14 years ago

But, Maduka, gay people are human beings. Do we not have rights? Are we not entitled to life and liberty? Are we somehow second class so that our freedom, our right to life, can be sacrificed in order that the Muslims in Nigeria will leave the “real people” (ie the heterosexuals) alone? Are you saying that throwing people in jail for being gay is not a human rights issue? Another thing. I assume you are heterosexual. Supposing, under this new law, someone has a grievance against you and accuses you of being homosexual. How would you prove such a person… Read more »

Leonardo Ricardo
14 years ago

“What on earth will make you understand that the problem in not “homophobia” but a vast difference in scriptural intepretation?” Maduka What on earth will it take for you to understand your thinking is twisted and your belief system against fellow citizens and LGBT human beings is warped to the point of being another deadly Nigerian National epedemic like AIDS? What on earth will it take for you to understand that the disease of AIDS originated in Africa? “Sexual sinners” from Nigera and surrounding countries spread AIDS by heterosexuals having SEX (mostly). Do YOU blame “Westerners” for the consequences of… Read more »

Leonardo Ricardo
14 years ago

Estimado Maduka What will it take for you to get beyond your hatefilled spirit that allows YOU to justify the outcasting, shunning, loathing and JAILING (pending) of your fellow LGBT Nigerians? YOU are the problem in Nigeria! What in the world will it take for YOU and your Nigerian brothers and sisters to find the common sense and WILLINGNESS/wellness to face your fellow citizens of ALL religions and work out peaceful solutions for living together harmonously? What will it take for YOU to get over playing the “victimized” blame game and start taking responsibility for your own dishonorable and immoral… Read more »

laurence
laurence
14 years ago

I welcome messages here from Nigerian people. Surely, we do need to receive aas many points of view as possible; and of the experience of others. Even if –or especially if hard to hear or hard to take. We all express our frustration differently –and our passion. We are very anglo-american here –if i may so put it — we really need to hear from other places and cultures. I was very interested to hear of the role of gay people in the anti-aparthied movement. I understand Maduka to be saying that human rights logically and practically precede gay rights.… Read more »

Cheryl Clough
Cheryl Clough
14 years ago

Maduka, you wrote “Infact homosexuals were at the forefront of the anti-aparteid movement” Therein lies my case. At the forefront of the fight against oppression, repression, slavery and institionalised poverty – you find the outcastes of society. The same thing happened in the fight against nazism. In modern parlance, we use the term homosexuality. In the OT we use the term eunuch. It is when we deny rights to one that we deny rights to all. Your rebute of me was actually confirmation that my position is valid. Read the bible: Isaiah 39:5-10, accepting that some of your descendants will… Read more »

Ford Elms
Ford Elms
14 years ago

“To the eunuchs who keep my Sabbaths, who choose what pleases me and hold fast to my covenant” But Cheryl, Conservatives would argue that this is what they are saying gay people must do, keep His Sabbaths, choose what pleases Him, and hold fast to His covenant. Now I’ve made my thoughts on this clear, I think, but, assured though I am of God’s love for me, I fail to see how me being in a gay relationship fulfills this. Same time, I am, as I have said, assured that God has led me here. So I am forced to… Read more »

Cheryl Clough
Cheryl Clough
14 years ago

Ford I was thinking about this overnight and the issue is partly to do with how people have become used to problem solving. The dialectical model of thinking has its merits, but one of my observations about how the world has degenerated is that there has become an assumption that there are “good guys” and “bad guys” (and girls). So, if you are a puritanical Christian, you are a good guy. Even if you are corrupt, hypocritical or sociopathic. If you are a Muslim (for example), you are bad guy and all your good deeds are seen as sinister as… Read more »

Ford Elms
Ford Elms
14 years ago

Cheryl, Here’s my problems with gay marriage. First I believe a lot of people are actually looking for validation from the Church, whether as punishment for past wrongs, or any number of other reasons. I’d like to say that marriage isn’t about validation of relationships, and ideally it shouldn’t be, but we routinely marry straight couples with no faith at all merely because they are wealthy, or because the woman has been raised to believe that the white wedding in a church is her right. If we are willing to show such disrespect for the Sacrament of matrimony as to… Read more »

Cheryl Clough
Cheryl Clough
14 years ago

Ford I sympathise with your posting. At one point you wrote “…civil marriage and Sacramental marriage are not the same thing.” There are people for whom that is true. However, I can tell you that I personally know many women and know of many other women who do not make that distinction. They have gone into their marriages (civil or sacramental) with the same commitment to lifelong monogamy and vows of for better or worse. As one of my girlfriends the other day said, being in a church didn’t change her level of commitment to the marriage. Another thing that… Read more »

Ford ELms
Ford ELms
14 years ago

That’s not what I meant. I’m not suggesting that civil marriage means less commitment. Civil marriage is a contract overseen by the State in which two people who seek to commit their lives to each other agree to the responsibilities the State considers that level of commitment to entail. Sacramental marriage is something else. Both start from a basis of commitment, which should be the same in both cases. There is a great difference in the way that commitment is formalized, which also entails different attitudes about what is produced, but that should in no way imply that civilly married… Read more »

Cheryl Clough
Cheryl Clough
14 years ago

Ford I think that we probably agree, but the words don’t reflect it. Practical example, although my previous marriage was civil, I always considered that I had made vows to God that I would look after my husband. In fact, I chose him over a wonderful career and allowed him to take all my superannuation and home equity so he could live out his dream. For better or for worse… The only reason he and I agreed to end the marriage Christmas 2005 was because some godly things had happened that made it clear that God probably had other intentions.… Read more »

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