Thinking Anglicans

primates meeting: yet another view

The Bishop of Winchester Michael Scott-Joynt has expressed his views in the Church of England Newspaper. They are reported by Anglican Mainstream here. This needs to be read in full, but contains several statements that are stronger than most of what Tom Wright has said. Some samples:

…Perhaps most controversially, the Primate of the Episcopal Church might be seated as a full member of the Meeting — and I am in no doubt that this would destroy the authority in the Communion, and in the eyes of our Ecumenical partners, of the Windsor Report…

…Many parishes, among them most of the largest in the church, have left TEC and sought episcopal oversight from eight or nine other Provinces…

…Thousands of families and individuals have left TEC, not only on account of the General Convention’s decisions about sexual behaviour but also because they find that TEC — and its new Presiding Bishop (PB) Katherine Jefferts Schori — are increasingly departing from basic Christian belief in the Lordship and Uniqueness of Christ…

…I hope that the ABC and at least a clear majority of his colleagues will recognise and support the Windsor-compliant bishops and dioceses of the TEC as a “college” of bishops, still formally within TEC but commissioned by the Primates both to hold together their own life (including by appropriate means that of the three Forward in Faith dioceses currently threatened with extinction by TEC) and to offer episcopal ministry to “Windsor-compliant” parishes in Dioceses whose bishops are unsympathetic to them…

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Neil
Neil
13 years ago

This is disgraceful pressure from a man who somehow found in favour of Richard Coekin against the Bishop of Southwark – whom I do not like in the least but who acted correctly. What confuses me above all is that Rowan Williams knows in his heart what the right course of action is (kindness acceptance of reality etc.) re lgbt people but who seems in his head to have massively miscalculated the church politics. The Bishop of Winchester may well believe in his own political analysis but will be left with a puritanical rump of the Church of England. Rowan… Read more »

Pluralist
13 years ago

So this new (?) plan, recently highlighted by Graham Kings of Fulcrum http://www.fulcrum-anglican.org.uk/news/2007/newsletter13.cfm?doc=188 drawing from the Anglican Communion Institute http://www.anglicancommunioninstitute.org/ is all because the Covenant is too slow in coming to satisfy the eagerness of the Nigerian and friends invasion. This won’t work either. Imagine setting up a recognised TEC within an unrecognised TEC. Is that not establishing a model to be taken up by others, as in the Church of England? What has Reform asked for? It has asked for its own bishops and extra structure, otherwise it will get more congregationlist and do it itself. It has said… Read more »

laurence
laurence
13 years ago

Why does Michael Scott-Joynt tell such porkies ? Or is he just (very) mistaken and misguided ? Why is he saying all this now ? Why has he done nothing about the listening commeded by Lambeth 1.10 and of Lambeth 1988 ? Why can’t he stand the PB ? -if this is anything to go by…. Why are the contortions of these bishops so hilarious ? ! AN INSPIRATION LET All the primates attend in fancy dress–perhaps all go as various kinds of clowns and with disguised faces and genders. Let them play toether and laugh and cry and tumble… Read more »

Neil
Neil
13 years ago

I forgot to say that the main task of the Archbishop of Canterbury should be to speak the love of God to the 50+ million people of England rather than overly concern himself about the 17.5 million Anglicans of Nigeria. Given the choice (and he has one) he must let them go. This whole construct of the Anglican so called Communion has never featured at the heart of the undertsanding or spirituality of this 47 year old priest of 20 years standing, and to be getting our knickers in a twist about a mythical entity which has never existed except… Read more »

JCF
JCF
13 years ago

“TEC — and its new Presiding Bishop (PB) Katherine Jefferts Schori — are increasingly departing from basic Christian belief in the Lordship and Uniqueness of Christ…”

Ah yes, I see that +Winchester has mastered The Art of the BIG LIE: repeat it ad nauseum!

[And who invented “The Art of”? Could it be “The Father of”???]

Lord have mercy!

Lapinbizarre
Lapinbizarre
13 years ago

Scott-Joynt, appointed bishop of Winchester by the last Conservative administration – in the Church of England these factors can and not infrequently do count – is perhaps the most prominent “fag-basher” on the current bench of bishops. His Wikipedia entry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Scott-Joynt) describes him “one of the Church of England’s most prominent opponents of equal rights for gay people both inside the church and in secular law, for example voting against the Equality Act (Sexual Orientation) Regulations in the House of Lords. Scott-Joynt also argued that the introduction of civil partnership legislation in the UK threatened the sanctity of marriage and… Read more »

Eric Schnaufer
Eric Schnaufer
13 years ago

Where are some of these people getting their information? I am amazed at how ignorant some of these bishops and others are about the TEC. Are they just blindly getting and accepting their information from the the likes of Bishop Duncan and others from the radical right? The reality is very few of the largest churches have left and most Episcopalians simply want to go about doing ministry and not waste time with such self rightous squabbles.

Eric Schnaufer, priest

Paul Davison
Paul Davison
13 years ago

I don’t think the Bishop of Winchester has a clue. Why is it controversial for the Primate of the Episcopal Church to be at a “Primates Meeting”? This “many parishes” stuff is nonsense. Its regrettable that any feel the need to leave, but its a very small percentage of the Church. (These people forget that a large majority of the elected Deputies seem to be in agreement with the current course.) I hate to so it, but if Bishops Wright and Scott-Joynt’s views were to prevail (and Archbishop Williams allowed it as I fear he might), I think the Anglican… Read more »

william
william
13 years ago

“Many parishes, among them most of the largest in the church, have left TEC.”

Highly inaccurate.

matthew hunt
matthew hunt
13 years ago

“…Presiding Bishop (PB) Katherine Jefferts Schori — [is] increasingly departing from basic Christian belief in the Lordship and Uniqueness of Christ…” Publicly repeating, *broadcasting* even, and so perpetuating this groundless slander against a fellow christian, let alone a fellow bishop, let alone the presiding bishop of a national church, is an outrageous and despicable thing for a bishop to do. He cites no evidence, he does not question this perception, he says they (the leavers of TEC) ‘find’ that the proposition is true. This is as close as you can get to agreeing with the proposition without being explicit. There… Read more »

Jeremy
Jeremy
13 years ago

Poor, poor misinformed man! I thought he was off to a good start with: “I offer an outline of what I believe will be good and fruitful outcomes of this meeting for the Anglican Communion, and for the Church of England.” But then he had to go and muck it all up with complete fibs (“Many parishes, among them most of the largest in the church, have left TEC”), rank propaganda and fear-mongering (“I am in no doubt that this would destroy the authority in the Communion.”), leaving us to wonder exactly where the “good and fruitful outcomes” will come… Read more »

Rodney
Rodney
13 years ago

After the Achbishops of Canterbury and York, and the Bishop of London in order of seniority in the Church of England come the Bishops of Durham and Winchester. Neither of these last two is naive, and these interventions have been made with the intention of encouraging the so called “Global South primates” (only one or two of whose dioceses are actually south of the Equator)in what is now clearly the end game for the Anglican Communion as we have known it. I find it unutterably sad. The hate and judgment, the barely concealed gloating and triumphant back-slapping which these ecclesiastical… Read more »

Cheryl Clough
13 years ago

This commented could have been pasted anywhere in the last several months. There is a core assumption that offering compassion or citizenship rights is fundamentally evil and will lead to damnation of souls. There are a wide range of religious leaders bending over backwards to publicly decry that they are in no way prepared to consort with GLBTs or offer them basic civil rights. Their “immorality” of being against life-long monogamy has been shown loud and clearly to be a problem in that GLBTs would like to be in life long monogamous relationships; but that religious leaders have colluded with… Read more »

Merseymike
Merseymike
13 years ago

So why do we want to remain in ‘communion’ with these people and their opinions?

All the logic points to a split and a church led by TEC. For goodness sake, have some courage and do it!

Prior Aelred
13 years ago

Well, if anyone can face this malicious opprobrium & abuse, it is ++Katharine, who is supported by many prayers!

This situation reminds me rather of Groucho Marx’s comment about not wanting to join a club that would have him as a member. The Anglican Communion that is being proposed is one of which I certainly would never want to be a part.

Andrew Innes
Andrew Innes
13 years ago

“Rowan does not seem to understand where England and English people are on the issue of homosexuality. No way, no where, can any consensus be built around the kind of homophobia he seems to be contemplating, and the Bishop of Winchester advocating.” Neil: You’re absolutely correct AND THE SAME GOES FOR CANADA TOO. Readers may be interested to know that a recent poll, published yesterday, by a very reputable polling organisation, SES, found the following: 58% of Canadians think the Charter (of Rights and Freedoms) is moving our society in the right direction (26% wrong direction, 16% unsure AND here’s… Read more »

Christopher Shell
Christopher Shell
13 years ago

I think what MSJ is referring to is the time when she said she preferred to substitute ‘prophet’ and ‘friend’ for Saviour and Lord. Here she committed two logical errors: (1) She avoided the question being asked: do you see Jesus as Saviour and/or Lord? It is only dishonest people and politicians that sidestep questions. (2) The options are not mutually exclusive, as she must surely know already. Jesus could very easily be all four of these; equally, he could be none. But being prophet doesn’t make him any less Lord, being friend doesnt make him any more Saviour, etc… Read more »

seeker
seeker
13 years ago

‘The Roman Catholic Renaissance is held back by the bishops
By Damian Thompson
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2006/08/12/do1204.xml
Some things don’t change !

Andy
Andy
13 years ago

Christopher, I think, reading between the lines, your post hits the nail on the head. All of this judgmental blustering is based not on informed, thoughtful reflection and conversation but on blog opinions and newspaer accounts that take two minutes to read. Has +MSJ (or +NTW) met ++KJS? Have they had any personal conversations? Could they not pick up the phone and report that their condemnations are based on an actual conversation? Is the Communion’s future being decided by by lightweight articles in such scholarly theological channels like USA Today (I have personally referred to USA Today as ‘television you… Read more »

Jim Pratt
Jim Pratt
13 years ago

Christopher,
Jesus as “prophet” and “friend” is hardly an innovation. Samuel Medley’s 1775 hymn, I know that my Redeemer lives, comes to mind as promoting that imagery (and it does not mention “Saviour” or “Lord”, though it does say “King”).

matthew hunt
matthew hunt
13 years ago

Mr Shell, No. Bishop Michael Scott-Joynt referred, in fact, to nothing you suggest. At all. If he had, my response would have been entirely different. In fact, he referred to what leavers of TEC ‘find’, in relation to his perpetuation of the slander, he referred, *very importantly* (and I strongly suspect very deliberately), to NOTHING else. You know, you really don’t have to support fellow conservative/evangelical/puritans if they get caught out at being very naughty. You are not obliged to share in their shame. It’s not a very worthwhile martyrdom. I would hang any liberal out to dry in their… Read more »

Gerry Lynch
13 years ago

‘Adding sexual orientation to equality rights section – support (62%), oppose (29%) rest were unsure’ Similarly two-thirds of the population of Britain support the right of suitable gay people to adopt; the country is evenly split on even allowing church agencies an exemption. I wonder what country Scott-Joynt is living in, as it seems to bear little resemblance to the one I live in. Perhaps he only talks to retired Colonels’ wives in the Meon Valley and his African mission partners? Or perhaps he thinks it’s countercultural? Either way, it is destroying Christianity in the eyes of many people in… Read more »

drdanfee
drdanfee
13 years ago

Consider that very recently, the judicial panel of the ELCA ruled on a gay minister in a committed relationship. He was called to a historic ELCA church in Atlanta, led a dwindling congregation into new growth and vitality, and was called from the beginning by that church as an honestly gay man. A piece of data concerning a strand of our ecumenical relations, then. The panel said two clearly things. One, they dismissed the ELCA pastor because a slim panel majority felt they had to uphold the written church rules. Okay, no surprises there. Two, the panel clearly said, we… Read more »

Göran Koch-Swahne
13 years ago

Much that I find Laurence’s vision endearing, I don’t think it stands much chance 🙁 Who can read +Winchester’s piece without realizing this is a corporate culture corrupt to the bone – as are indeed quite a few others in organized religion. But surely, all this only serves to prove that the IRD Colons are getting really nervous. The meetings of the pretended “South” have never managed to gather more than half the Provinces, and only around very neutral issues, like education, health, economics, development… Not all Provinces have been represented by their Primate. Primates have left when the IRD… Read more »

Göran Koch-Swahne
13 years ago

Oh, forgot:

+Winchester wrote: “… if the Anglican Communion is to have a Godly and an ecumenically recognised future…”

It’s My way or the highway… but what I really would like to know, is what the identities of those behind “an ecumenically recognised future” would be.

The man in Prada?

Tom
Tom
13 years ago

“an ecumenically recognised future”

ecumenical with who? arent the Methodists- who we are covenanted with remember- more liberal on matters of sexuality? arent US lutherans and presbyterians also divided on this issue? Lets face it, we’ve not got much in common with baptists (who probably would be more conservative i admit) and the roman catholics dont really trusts us anyway since the ordination of women (which was of course a fantastic decision)
nah i think being pro gay wont set us back much ecumenically at all… our closest neighbours in christianity will soon probably follow suit

Merseymike
Merseymike
13 years ago

Gerry ; there is also clear evidence that younger people are far more open than the older generation – which will again place the church in the backward-looking position, irrelevant to most.

John Henry
John Henry
13 years ago

“Signatures to Communiquées have either been less than the participating number, forged or lacking altogether ;=)”

Goran is putting it very charitably. Others would describe ++Peter Jasper’s actions as “thuggery”.

Richard Lyon
Richard Lyon
13 years ago

In the highly unlikely event that there is some sort of Lambeth conference in 2008, they will have to move it down the road to the Imperial War museum.

John Henry
John Henry
13 years ago

To quote the CofE Newspaper’s article: “Potentially crippling lawsuits over property are threatened in many Dioceses, encouraged by TEC’s New York headquarters. It is hard to escape the conclusion that TEC is breaking apart; and the effects of its break-up are being felt all across the Communion, and especially in Africa.” How would the CofE respond under similar circumstances, with border-crossing thugs and pirates claiming church properties which, under canon law and British law, are owned by a CofE diocese and not by the border-crossing prelate? I am sure the CofE, too, would resort to court action to stop this… Read more »

Charlotte
Charlotte
13 years ago

Jim Naughton has some interesting reflections at: http://blog.edow.org/weblog/2007/02/on_feeling_unprepared_1.html#more And (perhaps tooting my own horn) I posted a longer version of this as a comment there: “American Church liberals have relied far too much on a top-down model for realizing justice, which was drawn from the 1960s Civil Rights struggle in the US, and looked for an analogue of Federal legislation to support full inclusion of women and GLBT people in the Church. “We have not understood that the Network and its supporters, who are (as a matter of fact) comprised of a meet-up between veteran opponents of Lyndon Johnson’s Civil… Read more »

revkarenm
revkarenm
13 years ago

What in the world is the Bishop of Winchester smoking these days? How does one try to account for his hysterical tone and the strange lack of logic to his thinking? He opines that disastrous consequences to the “authority” of the Windsor Report will ensue unless Katherine Schori is shown the door at the much ballyhooed Primates meeting. The only likely outcome of such an action would be to rally TEC even more around Katherine and the work of GC 2006. Next, in a fit of utterly crazy thinking, he insists that once Katherine is out the door, the Primates… Read more »

Göran Koch-Swahne
13 years ago

A Joynt?

Neil
Neil
13 years ago

Thank you Richard Lyon for the smile you have elicited – even if a tragi-comedy.

Göran Koch-Swahne
13 years ago

The Imperial War Museum is a most workable proposition, indeed.

The National Archives of the former Colonies are kept there by Big White Chief.

The Primates would find there some facts of what life (including human sexualities) was like in before 19th century European laws, Calvinism and Socio-politics ravaged their lands.

seeker
seeker
13 years ago

I love the humour here ! A Joynt !!
The IWM !

I hope the article Charlotte recommends may be found –and maybe linked to , please Simon ? If poss….

SS adds:
http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200703/tim-gill

Prior Aelred
13 years ago

Göran Koch-Swahne —

I suppose the English take these things for granted, but I think that it is interesting that the Imperial War Museum is housed in the old Bedlam (across from Lambeth, no less).

Göran Koch-Swahne
13 years ago

Mad Bess to blame for all this?

Well, all the more appropriate. The Church is an Asylum run by the inmates.

(so wish there was an other way do to it 🙁

Cheryl Clough
13 years ago

Gerry Lynch Following on from your article, Catholic News Service has a sociologists report that shows similar shifts in young catholics. (They have banned distribution so I can’t put a link here – which supports Seeker’s claim that bishops are holding things back there too). On the question of Jesus as prophet and friend. I find the bible quite helpful on this. e.g. Revelation 19:10 “For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.” on friendship John 21:5 where Jesus refers to some of the disciples as friends after his resurrection; snd John 15:13-17 Jesus which includes “… I… Read more »

seeker
seeker
13 years ago

‘It is as scary as Martin Luther taking the bible to the people.’
Cheryl

Yes, I never saw it till now.

This what it is. Thanks Cheryl.

Göran Koch-Swahne
13 years ago

Amen.

Christopher Shell
Christopher Shell
13 years ago

Hi Jim-
Yes, I don’t remotely object to Jesus being called either prophet or friend. Both titles seem fully apposite and authentic.

What I and every other logical thinker objects to is the implication that by virtue of his being prophet and friend one can avoid addressing the question of whether he is saviour and/or Lord.

NP
NP
13 years ago

Neil says:”I am more in touch with the reality of where the English people we are called to serve are than Rowan or Michael.” I wonder if you are from one of those oh so “in touch” CofE churches that has been so successful at declining while compromising for years? (you know, the sort constantly on the look out for subsidies – even from Reform and Alpha churches – they are not “in touch” but have you noticed how full they are with BRITISH people?) Tragic arrogance of some “liberals” – years and years of pathetic decline, living off other… Read more »

Charles
Charles
13 years ago

I want to address the frequent comment on these blogs about declining liberal churches being supported by strong “conservative” churches. I live in Canada, and it is certainly NOT the case here. The Anglican Church of Canada is funded primarily by the larger (more) “liberal” urban dioceses – Toronto, Montreal, New Westminster, Niagara, Huron, Ottawa. Without the money these dioceses send to the national church – it would collapse. And where does this money go – a big chunk goes to fund the Church of the North – small rural dioceses in the north of Canada (predominantly conservative). I do… Read more »

NP
NP
13 years ago

Charles – the fact that I put ENGLAND in capital letters in my post might be clue that I was not talking about Canada……

The fact that Canada, like TEC, has been v successful in losing so many faithful people in the last few decades, leaving it dominated by liberals is nothing to boast about…

Ford Elms
Ford Elms
13 years ago

NP,
I live in Canada and know a lot of people for whom organized religion, especially Christianity, is “despicable”. One of the main reasons for this is the influx of what one of my friends calls “hand waving, monosyllable babbling hysterics rolling around on the floor”. By this he is referring to the antics of fundamentalist “Evangelical” preachers, who sadly are present even in Anglicanism. These things invite comparisons with shamanistic practices that are difficult to refute. In my experience, it is this that is driving Canadians away, I can’t speak for Britain.

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