Thinking Anglicans

primates meeting: Friday reports

Today, the Church Times had this report by Rachel Harden Primates head into a storm in Dar es Salaam.

From the Bahama Journal there was a report by Stephen Gay [sic] headlined Anglican Church To Make Decision On Homosexuality Issue which quotes Archbishop Drexel Gomez’s opinions.

Religion News Service issued Anglican, Episcopal Leaders Head to Summit in Africa By Daniel Burke.

Episcopal News Service issued Tanzania’s Anglican Church to host Communion’s Primates near ‘Abode of Peace’ by Matthew Davies.

Addition ENS also has New Primates elected for Hong Kong, Middle East.

Duke University published the text of an address by Lord Carey which discusses at length the background to this meeting.

Jim Naughton has published some thoughts about what may happen, On feeling unprepared.

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Martin Reynolds
13 years ago

I think Jim Naughton’s fears are realistic.

Göran Koch-Swahne
13 years ago

Another “friend” who is so close to Dr Rowan that he doesn’t keep his mouth shut.

With friends like that, who needs enemies?

(isn’t Duke one of those 1 Faculty places where students aren’t allowed to hold hands on campus, unless they have the same skin colour?)

Neil
Neil
13 years ago

‘after which the relevant parties will get down to work on the draft of the Archbishop of Canterbury’s covenant that will be presented at the Primates Meeting, and that when all is said and done, we will be able to affix our name to the document with a not too clouded conscience.’ I think you are being too generous about the whole process Jim. Where and when (throughout the whole so called Communion) has there been any endorsement for the Windsor process from people in the pews or Synods? The only people who back the process (as far as I… Read more »

drdanfee
drdanfee
13 years ago

Many prayerful thanks to Archbisohp Ndungane of South Africa for repeating so clearly what is supposed to be obscured by all the new rightwing Anglican condemnation, fear, and disgust – the shift is sexual orientation understandings is fairly clear empirically, but not nearly as wholesale and definitive for each and every legacy doctrine of faith as the New Anglican Right is drumming so loudly for all of us to believe. We have been through all this before, and as soon as we get used to the earth not being flat, Jesus is still Lord. But while we sorted things out… Read more »

drdanfee
drdanfee
13 years ago

Lord Carey’s address is more of the same. He defines or understands himself as holding all the cards, and so he has no need not to continue demonizing people who are not straight. What a most British genteel tone of, well my dears, certain folks are not quite up to God’s best for us. I suspect Rowan Williams is closer to this than many of us have wished to hear and understand. Lord Carey’s remakrs offer us no hint of understanding legacy straight privileges to condemn, define as nothing but negative, and the like. He is much exercised about the… Read more »

Pluralist
13 years ago

_The fact that our Ordinals never mention the possibility of practising homosexuals being ordained is that such an option was inconceivable – indeed, reprehensible._ George Carey… Well it is conceivable and indeed is quite the opposite of reprehensible and, recognised, represents a stable form of relationship. _bypassing Paul’s teaching in Romans I concerning homosexuality as irrelevant to our times, or as a cultural equivalent to women wearing hats in church_ Arguably it is indeed the cultural equivalent to wearing hats, and in any case the context of homosexual get togethers was an almost brothel-like causal and friendly meeting of Greek… Read more »

Jeremy
Jeremy
13 years ago

The Archbishop of Wales sends his apologies because he is on sabbatical?! Please tell me that there is some substantive reason for him to stay home.

kieran crichton
kieran crichton
13 years ago

I wonder why article XXXII has not been brought into this argument yet. After all, does it no support so much on the *liberal* side? “Bishops, Priests, and Deacons, are not commanded by God’s Law, either to vow the estate of single life, or to abstain from marriage: therefore it is lawful for them, as for all other Christian men, to marry at their own discretion, as they shall judge the same to serve better to godliness.” After all, I do not see that this fight is about gay people per se (see comments about the flat earth business elsewhere),… Read more »

Martin Reynolds
13 years ago

The Archbishop of Wales is currently on sabbatical somewhere in the antipodes, unavailable by phone or email. He made it clear in the middle of last year that nothing would be allowed to interrupt this long planned event.

Neil
Neil
13 years ago

‘I often comment that there are now more Anglicans worshipping on a Sunday in the Province of Nigeria than all Episcopalians in the UK, America, Canada, Australia and New Zealand put together. It would be a foolish Communion indeed that ignored such strength.’ I am not as confident as George Carey that numbers represent a godly strength. They may or may not, and there could be well over 17.5 million people in England alone (let alone the rest of the countries represented in the AC) who would find the Christianity espoused by Archbishop Akinola as abhorrent and intolerable…thus balancing out… Read more »

John D
John D
13 years ago

The scandal is that the Lord Carey continues to issue such political, inhospitable commentary. What a disgrace that he was ever the ABC, helping lay the groundwork for the Communion’s current troubles.

Lapinbizarre
Lapinbizarre
13 years ago

George Carey pedaled private conversations with the Royal Family in his 2004 memoirs. It is difficult to see what reason he had for this, other than boosting the sale of his volume. And this individual has the gall to continue to pontificate on the morals of others?

Simon Sarmiento’s admirable coverage of this incident can be found at http://www.thinkinganglicans.org.uk/ss/archives/000648.html

Terence Blacker’s column in the Independent, quoted extensively by Mr. Sarmiento, gives an excellent synopsis of the incident. It is a fine counterweight to Carey’s numbing self-importance.

seeker
seeker
13 years ago

The fact that our Ordinals never mention the possibility of practising homosexuals being ordained is that such an option was inconceivable – indeed, reprehensible._ George Carey…

IS this what YOU felt George when YOU ordained openly gay people ?

Or is this an after ‘thought’ ?

Prior Aelred
13 years ago

I can’t find the link, but some leading African Presbyterian recently described Pentacostalism as “satanic” — judging by this link, I wonder just how many Western Anglicans would even find many of the “Anglican” services in Nigeria (et. al.) recognizable?

http://www.mg.co.za/articlePage.aspx?articleid=298365&area=/breaking_news/breaking_news__national/

or

http://tinyurl.com/28xdzv

JCF
JCF
13 years ago

“I am not as confident as George Carey that numbers represent a godly strength. They may or may not, and there could be well over 17.5 million people in England alone (let alone the rest of the countries represented in the AC) who would find the Christianity espoused by Archbishop Akinola as abhorrent and intolerable” Exactly, Neil. Why is it when playing the Numbers Game, we never look at the higher numbers of persons *who have been given very good reasons to stay OUTSIDE of the churches*, when too many Christians continue to peddle this non-Jesus-like cr*p? [I can’t COUNT… Read more »

Cynthia Gilliatt
Cynthia Gilliatt
13 years ago

“isn’t Duke one of those 1 Faculty places where students aren’t allowed to hold hands on campus, unless they have the same skin colour?” No. It is a highly regarded research university with a first class medical school and hospital, an outstanding law school, and an undergraduate program that attracts some of the brightest students in the country. Duke Chapel invites a number of guest preachers each year, bringing a diversity of perspectives. Its Divinity School is associated with the Methodist church. Its last all-white freshman class was my own, admitted in 1962. You might check its web site at… Read more »

Cynthia Gilliatt
Cynthia Gilliatt
13 years ago

“_their continuity with our Lord’s teaching concerning the creational significance of marriage between a man and woman that is lifelong, faithful and tender._”

Arranged marriages of teenaged girls to the male who presented her father with the largest dowery was “tender?” I hate to break it to Lord Carey, but the marriage customs of the 1st century in Palestine were not exactly in the sentimental tradition of “Brides’ Magazine.” What utter claptrap the man does speak.

Leonardo Ricardo
Leonardo Ricardo
13 years ago

“What utter claptrap the man does speak.” Cynthia Gilliatt

Yes, and Lord Carey loves all the intrigue/flutter, flutter, pump, purse lips, oy vey…he really should be one of the “vested” charactors on a Mexican Soap Opera!

Goran,

Duke is very cool University, one of my dearest and most brilliant lady friends is a graduate (around Cynthia’s class I think) …she’s right here in the Global Center of things…however, because of some earlier unpleasantness/deceitfulness with a Bishop she is no longer a Episcopalian/Anglican…she’s gone Buddist on us.

Göran Koch-Swahne
13 years ago

“If you were attempting light-hearted humor, you missed.”

No dear Cynthia, I am deeply worried. But if this is not one of those places: thanks be to God!

mynsterpreost (=David Rowett)
mynsterpreost (=David Rowett)
13 years ago

“_their continuity with our Lord’s teaching concerning the creational significance of marriage between a man and woman that is lifelong, faithful and tender._”

So explaining why in the Kingdom this relationship should have no place is tricky, no? Doesn’t Scripture rather point in a different direction – “They shall no longer marry nor be given in marriage’ implying a power relationship of inequality which cannot be allowed to exist in the Kingdom?

Sentimental pap: perhaps he should write verses for Christian greetings cards.

Lapinbizarre
Lapinbizarre
13 years ago

While we are on the topic of Duke University, two or three years back, when he was vicar of St. Mark’s, Newnham, Cambridge, UK, Sam Wells, now Dean of the Chapel at Duke, preached an exceedingly sensitively-constructed sermon on varying Anglican approaches to homosexuality. Until recently, the text of the sermon was posted on St. Mark’s web page. It is no longer there. Does anyone know where else it might be found? It was wide-ranging, and brought constructive examination and thought to a topic on which, nowadays, one reads entirely too much raw polemic.

Giles Goddard
13 years ago

I wish we could nail the myth of the 17m Nigerian Anglicans. There’s never been a census. As far as we’re aware at IC there are no accurate figures. I was told the other day that that whole families are counted when one member of the church attends. The members of this congregation from Nigeria say that young Anglicans are haemorrhaging (sp?) into Pentecostal churches. I’m told Akinola’s profile in Nigeria is nowhere.

I’m aware that’s all hearsay but I’d love to see the figures. From a reliable source. Where does this 17m come from?

Göran Koch-Swahne
13 years ago

It’s not that the IRD +Duncan people ever told a lie?

Troy Barbee
Troy Barbee
13 years ago

Sam Wells’s sermon can be found (via the Internet Archive Wayback Machine) at

http://web.archive.org/web/20050112150915/www.stmarksnewnham.org/lettersandsermons/2004/10/index.html

NP
NP
13 years ago

Giles – ok, even if you doubt the Nigerian nos etc, no ABC is going to sacrifice the AC for TEC/VGR – it just does not make sense to do so – does it?

Ford Elms
Ford Elms
13 years ago

NP, TEC thinks it was right to consecrate VGR. Now, you are quite willing to sacrifice the unity of the Church for what you believe is right, can you not think others would do the same? The only reason you think like this is that you will not acknowledge that TEC is acting out of faith and not out of some desire to be popular with the world. In this, you are being led astray by false witness. Do you really feel that to acknowledge faith in those who disagree with you is to abandon your own faith, or that… Read more »

NP
NP
13 years ago

Ford – how many times, I do not and do not have to defend +Akinola against charges. I am sure he can look after himself. On TEC, no, I do not think I and most of the AC are on the same wavelength as the current leadership of TEC…..but the point is that so far TEC has not been willing to make any sacrifice for what it believes is right because it still demands to be part of the AC. I would respect TEC more if it formed TEC Global (not just because I want to get rid of TEC… Read more »

Ford Elms
Ford Elms
13 years ago

“I do not and do not have to defend +Akinola” I didn’t say anything about defending him. And you still haven’t addressed the insulting way in which you assume that TEC’s actions are based on love of the world rather than Christian faith. Have you been led so far from the Gospel that you can’t even see faith if it doesn’t agree with yours? Can you acknowledge that TEC are acting out of faith, yes or no? For the record. I wouldn’t dream of accusing you of faithlessness, despite the fact that I feel Evangelicalism is a seriously flawed belief… Read more »

NP
NP
13 years ago

Ford – you think it is some sort of virtue not to say something is wrong when…it is wrong?

Well, since you ask, yes – I think TEC’s regular rejection of scripture, tradition and church discipline (particularly but not only in the events of 2003)speaks for itself.

ST Paul warned Timothy, as you know, about the church being subverted (2Tim4:3): “For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions,”………….he did not recommed tolerating or respecting such teachers, as you know.

Ford Elms
Ford Elms
13 years ago

“Ford – you think it is some sort of virtue not to say something is wrong when…it is wrong?”
No. Where does this come from? And accusations of rejection of Church tradition and discipline are rich, coming from an Evangelical (rejection of Church Tradition)who supports the actions of +Akinola (rejection of Church discipline).

“he did not recommed tolerating or respecting such teachers”
And there are many who would say that those who follow too closely the teachings of the Protestant Reofrmation are doing just that. You certainly seem to be doing so.

NP
NP
13 years ago

Ford – please note:

The Protestant Reformers were saying – look at what scripture says – let’s obey it.

TEC “innovators” are saying – don’t worry about what scripture says or it means the opposite to what it says.

I do find the Reformers much more convincing than the current leadership of TEC – because their reforms had SUBSTANCE and a solid base in scripture….which I would say is much more important than corruptible tradition or churches

Ford Elms
Ford Elms
13 years ago

NP, didn’t you read the link I gave you a while ago? Scripture tells us to be true to the Tradition we have received. How did we receive that tradition, since the people Paul was talking to had clearly received the Tradition before it was written down? So much of the Catholic Faith is not to be found in Scripture directly. The point of the Reformation was that anything that wasn’t in Scripture was the “corrupt traditions of men”. By introducing this “only what’s in the Bible” attitude to the faith, the Reformers were being radically innovative, which is what… Read more »

Lapinbizarre
Lapinbizarre
13 years ago

Many thanks Troy Barbee for the link to Sam Wells sermon, which I just picked up on. Much appreciated. Roger

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