Thinking Anglicans

primates meeting: Thursday evening

Updated again

Jonathan Petre has blogged Another bloody day in Paradise.

Steve Bates has blogged too, Crossing the divide.

Ruth Gledhill has blogged TEC ‘regret’ ok, says Gang of Four.

ACNS has published some Photographs.

Scott Gunn has blogged Evening press briefing: actual news, sort of. He has also posted this reflection, and there are Photos here. Caro Hall’s blog is here.

Peter Ould has blogged someone’s press conference notes here.

Over at Stand Firm Greg Griffith is extremely unhappy with the latest report. It is a falsehood perpetrated on the communion.

Andrew Hutchinson Primate of Canada, blogs here.

The American Anglican Council is not happy: A Statement by the American Anglican Council on the Communion Sub-Group Report.

George Conger has this report for the Living Church: Cordial Day of Listening Marks Opening Sessions in Tanzania.

ENS’ Matthew Davies has Primates engage in ‘intense listening,’ discuss Windsor response.

Reuters Katie Nguyen Anglican summit scrutinizes U.S. stance on gay clergy.

George Conger also wrote this piece for the Church of England Newspaper: Archbishop backs place for Schori.

Anglican Journal has Primates’ meeting begins with all at the table.

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JCF
JCF
14 years ago

“Over at Stand Firm Greg Griffith is extremely unhappy with the latest report.”

Lord, forgive me my Schadenfreude.
Lord, save me from my Schadenfreude.
Lord, let me feel compassion for Greg, and all who believe as he does. Amen!

Pray for the Church.

Pluralist
14 years ago

At this point, this is very interesting. So, ith a few hesitant points, the upshot of the working sub-group is that “GC06” did meet Windsor’s expectation, but that the Global South has not at all in terms of incursions inro TEC’s space. It means that the Covenant process is going to be around this position, on the communion doing things together. So that’s all right then. Except it isn’t, is it. First of all, the Covenant, if it is pitched at this level, will be no use for those who see it as a maintenance of orthodoxy around a world… Read more »

Steven
Steven
14 years ago

Hmmm. Everybody makin’ nice nice. What does it all mean? Well, as the old saying goes: It ain’t over ’til its over. We can’t really tell what kind of horse trading is going on and what kind of deals are being struck until the whole thing grinds down to its conclusion and we, hopefully, have the whole deal out where we see it. (Or, at least as much of it as the Primates have worked out to this point).

Steven

James Crocker
James Crocker
14 years ago

As far as I can see, the report doesn’t actually mean much in terms of what the Primates will actually do. I could be wrong, but it seems to be that the sub-commitee was loaded with the most innocuous people that could be found. These are not the far-right or far-left people who cause division in the communion. No real progress will be made until these people are allowed to sit down together, and properly talk (argue?) these things through. It would be very unanglican, not very policital, but everyone would know where they stand.

Jeremy
Jeremy
14 years ago

And it all begins with a whimper and not a bang. Is the bang yet to come?

Whatever the case, the ultra-conservatives online are foaming at the mouth, and that is rather a lot of fun to watch.

Has ++Akinola marginalized himself such that no one will stand with him in his unholy wrath? Let’s hope he returns home frustrated and starts his own Communion. It appears that his incursions into TEC may be squashed. Hmm.

badman
badman
14 years ago

On reflection – this is what I learn from the Sub-Committee Report. 1. A consensus – a unanimous agreed position – has been reached between a leading Global South Primate, a leading liberal Primate, two conservative lay people, the Archbishop of Canterbury and the liberal Secretary General. 2. The consensus is to hang on to the Episcopal Church for dear life – to give it the benefit of every doubt, and to strive, strive, strive for unity. Not to give up. Not to split. 3. The consensus is to insist, absolutely, that there is a stop to same sex blessings… Read more »

Fr Joseph O'Leary
14 years ago

The Christian courtesy prevailing is a great credit to Anglicans, especially Drs Williams and Jefferts Schori. The whole squabble may end in something edifying, which is much needed. The authoritative report finds that the Episcopalian Church has passable jumped through the hoops. Let’s try to understand the rage of those who see lurking in gay-related issues an article by which the church stands or falls. But they have failed to articulate their case in such wise as to give it that massive importance, to make it a matter of orthodoxy. A sign of their inarticulacy is the fact that they… Read more »

Fr Joseph O'Leary
14 years ago

What the subcommittee report is saying is that the TEC is basically in good faith and that any quarrels people have with it are not sufficient to be taken as grounds for schism. I do not see the Primates pushing the case for schism, however people like Griffith, Sarah Hey, Ruth Gledhill, David Virtue, and even the Bishop of Winchester seem to revel in the thought of schism. The reasons they will not push for schism are (1) they have failed to articulate a coherent theological case for excommunicating or breaking communion with the Episcopal Church; they flip-flop hopelessly between… Read more »

drdanfee
drdanfee
14 years ago

If we are following the conservative blogs at all, we can surely hear clearly that Tanzania was supposed to (quote) discipline (unquote) TEC for not unanimously damning folks who are not straight in favor of folks who are, along with other key clusters of the legacy stuff. Various ConsEvs visions of this have been mentioned or suggested. The trial images and the punitive understandings have been more or less vivid in most ConsEvs blogging. Apart from the joy to see – or at least to overtly imagine seeing – and here it does seem to reach implicitly personal intensities –… Read more »

drdanfee
drdanfee
14 years ago

Is it really surprising that any non-extreme bishop, left or right or middle, has some hesitations about signing on to this readymade realignment agenda? For one thing, as anybody knows (except those who have already convinced themselves that progressive understandings of non-straight people make no sense to queer folks or their family or their friends), the fault lines of variance run right through many of the provinces. If we must realign, mainly according to our variations which have to be turned into battling Anglican fault lines, almost all of the major provinces are rendered vulnerable to some sort of protest… Read more »

NP
NP
14 years ago

Simon – pls keep this thread on until the end of the meetings………JCF and Pluralist are very likely to be less happy in a couple of days time.

We have seen no conclusions so far.
It is far too early to be writing off +Durham and +Winchester and to be celebrating for TEC. Far too early.

Martin Reynolds
14 years ago

Someone will be paying the price of keeping all at the table.

I have no illusions – only by affirming and increasing the hostility to LGBT’s will this be achieved.

I can see no joy in affirming what we have always believed, TEC has done enough, we were sold down the river. This may not suit the separatist agenda of some – but they have not lost yet. There is still a head of steam for recognising the separatists.

Simon Sarmiento
14 years ago

I apologise for erroneously allowing through a highly objectionable comment. It has now been removed. At least it has shown to some of you why total moderation is needed here.

Fr Joseph O'Leary
14 years ago

I’ve been looking at the lamentations on titusonenine. One asks: “why would +++Cantaur put his name to something so obviously absurd?” But it is surely not absurd to say that the ECUSA despite difficulties have shown good faith and cannot be treated as schismatics, and to ask their critics why they have completely ignored other aspects of Windsor. ” this otherwise silly report.” The history of theology and diplomacy is littered with such inspired silliness – e.g. the 1999 Joint Declaration on Justification. “the driving force behind his actions has been to keep as much of the historic Communion together… Read more »

seeker
seeker
14 years ago

‘And it all begins with a whimper and not a bang. Is the bang yet to come?’

Surely it is the admissablity or otherwise of banging which is moot ?

C.B.
C.B.
14 years ago

NP – Of Course it’s not offer. Akinola will probably pick up his marbles and leave this afternoon. But he is the schismatic, not TEC. This has been true from the beginning, so why shouldn’t it end this way? The non-Anglicans leave, as they should.

C.B.

Ford Elms
Ford Elms
14 years ago

NP, Despite all the back and forth between you and I, I do appreciate that you are as passionate about your faith as I am, likely moreso. I appreciate that it distresses you that there are bishops, even on another continent, who countenance what you truly believe to be wrong. I mean no sarcasm here. I am disturbed that you seem to be saddened that schism might not occur. In spite of all I have said about those on “the other side” avoidance of schism is something to be glad of, not sorrowful. It means we will keep on talking,… Read more »

Pluralist
14 years ago

NP, I am not celebrating etc. I wrote “At this point, this is very interesting.” At this point, because I am aware that inconsistencies are part of meetings, and there are going to be pressures as a result of these findings. NP, you have been clear virtually every post that TEC innovated, is in the wrong and called for “Global TEC” to begin and do something different from Anglicanism. The Windsor findings contradict your view, and an agreement by Primates and a Covenant consistent with this will also fail to support your view. I am opposed to a Covenant. A… Read more »

Pluralist
14 years ago

NP, I’ve just noticed that you have used the word “fudge” as well – perhaps we have an element of agreement, though sometimes fudge can be useful (say on a non-essential matter or something that would upset a more fundamental finding). If you want to see my attitude to Covenants and the like, and all these written attempts to hold people in, have a look at a piece of mine just published on the National Unitarian Fellowship website: http://www.nufonline.co.uk/viewpoint.html Called Moving On, it tells why I moved to the Anglican Church and includes some analysis of conservative postliberal theology (what… Read more »

JCF
JCF
14 years ago

“JCF and Pluralist are very likely to be less happy in a couple of days time.” Happy, NP? I’m afraid you just don’t know me well enough. Breathing a (momentary) “sigh of relief” does not happiness make. {*} There are still far too many (like yourself?) who can’t accept me the way *God* made me—insisting, rather, that I’ve remade my affections in a sinful direction—for me to be TRULY happy. I carry on, bearing my particular cross, nurtured for the journey by Christ’s Body & Blood, given (wonder of wonders! :-0) for *me*. And there are moments of happiness, to… Read more »

NP
NP
14 years ago

Sorry to misread you, JCF.

Yes, true happiness eludes all of us in this life….that’s partly why I hate the prosperity heresy.

I would love to be reconciled with you but the only problem I have is that it still seems to me that you are saying something is good / holy which is explicitly given as sin by the spirit-inspired word….would not JC have said “I accept you – go and sin no more” and is that not what Rom 6 would lead you to do?

Ford Elms
Ford Elms
14 years ago

“true happiness eludes all of us in this life”
Not all of us, NP. Google St. Seraphim of Sarov for the story of one of the many people who have been granted theosis in this life.

“spirit-inspired word”. Why put the Spirit inspired word above the Spirit filled Church? Why put the word above the Word?

NP
NP
14 years ago

Ford – “Heaven is a place on Earth” – that is theology by Berlinda Carlisle

Word > Church because the Church / Tradition can get things horribly wrong (as you have pointed out before)

Ford Elms
Ford Elms
14 years ago

NP, So can sola scriptura. I ask again, if the “plain word” of Scripture is so plain, then why are there so many different kinds of Protestants? Heck, why are there so many different kinds of Evangelicals? I mean you can’t all be right? Just because the Church got some things wrong and needed to be reformed doesn’t mean we have to reinvent the Church and give Her a new source of authority. That’s throwing out the baby with the bathwater. “Heaven is a Place on Earth”? What? Doesn’t the New Jerusalem come down to the New Creation in Revelations?… Read more »

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