Thinking Anglicans

primates meeting: Saturday lunchtime

Stephen Bates in The Guardian Archbishop snubbed in gay bishop row

Jonathan Petre in The Telegraph Dr Williams will find little comfort

Telegraph leader Divided communion

Sharon LaFraniere and Laurie Goodstein in The New York Times Anglican Prelates Snub Head of U.S. Church Over Gay Issues

Changing Attitude Day 5 report from Colin Coward.

Scott Gunn blogs A quiet day here in Dar

Reuters South Africa has Anglican preacher undeterred by anti-gay hostility

ACNS Primates Meeting – Press briefing on 16 Feb 2007

Anglican TV has posted a video of yesterday’s press conference

Giles Fraser in today’s Face to Faith column in The Guardian Fissiparous evangelical Christians are now being reunited by hatred (probably written a few days ago)

IPP Media Anglican primates visiting Zanzibar tomorrow

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seeker
seeker
14 years ago

Giles Fraser right on the money again. Excellent analysis of the situation. I remember my Evangelcal childhood (in the Brethren). I couldnt understand the disputes, and fallings-out then or now. Thre wree the pre and the post Millenarianists –“Will Christ come before or eafter the Great Tribulation ?” was the burning question. They poured over the last book in the NT for anw=swers–as if it all made any sense ! Who cares any way ? I didn’t. I don’t. (I don’t even accept their premises). Then there was glossolalia ! The young people of the meeting started attedning exotic mid-week… Read more »

Leonardo Ricardo
14 years ago

“They purchase their togetherness with the suffering of gay Christians, especially in places such as Nigeria, where the church is egging on a violent and aggressive homophobia. It’s textbook scapegoating.” Giles Fraser Verdad? +Akinola continues to “miss the point” when being of “service” to his fellow Anglicans by endorsing anti-Human Rights laws against LGBT Christians/Muslims “right to assemble” in Nigeria…is this the “pieces of silver” price this man is willing to pay for a cameo role in a very badly scripted human drama that will kill LGBT human beings through legalized hate crimes? To love oneanother or outcast oneanother, that… Read more »

Leonardo Ricardo
14 years ago

“I wonder where they’ll pass the time while the rest of us are feasting together as the gathered Body of Christ?” Scott Gunn

Plotting, plotting and more plotting against fellow Anglicans and “other” fellow human beings…certainly they’ll find a better approach to fear and hate than listening to the sound of their own voices…praying helps.

Graeme Watson
Graeme Watson
14 years ago

Very good coverage. Thanks for all the diverse comments

Keep it up.

(Fr) Graeme Watson

Leonardo Ricardo
14 years ago

“Holding one another in ‘check’?” “Mutual accountability?” Projecting items for the “Anglican Covenant” +Drexel Gomez Perhaps we should start the process with a Grand Jury investigation of the Primate “participants.” This is pie in the sky thinking/believing when +Akinola and +Orombi and +Venables are crossing diocesean boundries and creating non-accountability and hate/fearmongering against fellow Episcopalians and Anglicans daily…in addition +Akinola continues to show NO RESPECT or even a basic interest in SAFETY for LGBT Anglicans in Nigeria by endorsing pending legislation against “assembly” of LGBT Anglicans, their families, their loved ones and their supporters. I don’t read, nor hear, ANY… Read more »

Pluralist
14 years ago

The Daily Telegraph opinion is second class stuff. One thing that emerges here is that there has been nothing on TV news, precious little on the radio, adn the news has been analysed through the Internet – much repetition but some keen analysis. One consideration towards whether to chuck out all TV equipment when the next licence is due. Giles Fraser is a bit OTT – against his argument is the Fulcrum position. They are quite torn apart, pushed in two directions at once. N T Wright (of that position) now looks rather silly, having attacked the Reform and friends’… Read more »

Isaac
14 years ago

Why is this even a story? The Seven Who Stayed Away said they weren’t even going to sit at the same conference table with Bp. Schori, so why are we surprised they won’t receive Communion with her?

Puzzled am I.

Dave
Dave
14 years ago

I wonder whether many Primates are being charmed into accepting inaction “today” on the WR response by the promise of greater consensus on action “tomorrow” via the Covenant ? If so I would like to point out to them that they were already persuaded once to not act over GC2003 because of the consensus through WR, and the same arguemnet could be used again and again over the Covenant if it doesn’t also suffer a liberal “once over”. The holding out of a consensus way forward might seem attractive to Anglicans (who prefer to find ways to maximise communion) but… Read more »

Allan
Allan
14 years ago

Those are waves gently splashing up against the side of the Tiber. It sure looks nice over there.

Josh Thomas
14 years ago

Wasn’t that a marvelous interview Reuters did with Davis Mac-Iyalla? I’m very impressed with his witness in the face of death threats and hatred.

It doesn’t appear that the Holy Spirit has anointed the Anglican Communion of Nigeria-Virginia at all, while Davis and Katharine Jefferts Schori are bearing up just fine.

Tim
Tim
14 years ago

From the NYtimes article: “conservative Anglicans said they were starting to despair that the meeting here would produce neither of their goals:”

Well there’s a surprise. If you want to cause a stink, you have to show up at the party.

drdanfee
drdanfee
14 years ago

This relative lull in the loud conservative realignment storm is most welcome. Just don’t count on the winds of controversy dying down that much for that long, because the safest prediction is that conservative realignment folks will hunker down and come up with some additional condemnations to throw at the rest of us in Jesus’ name. That round will be welcome, too, since I have decided for the time being that rock throwers must throw rocks until we all realize that rock throwing is their calling in life and world and church. Meanwhile, the rest of the planet is slowly… Read more »

Kurt
Kurt
14 years ago

“Those are waves gently splashing up against the side of the Tiber. It sure looks nice over there.”— Allan

I’m sure it does look nice to you Allan. But, be careful of that stuff floating on the surface; and, there’s the smell, of course.

James Crocker
James Crocker
14 years ago

Josh: “It doesn’t appear that the Holy Spirit has anointed the Anglican Communion of Nigeria-Virginia at all” Might want to be careful what you say here. I’m sure Akinola gets plenty of death threats. And martyrdom isn’t exactly foreign to any of the global south primates. Also, I am aware that this isn’t the only consideration, but it is a consideration, Nigeria is the fastest growing province in the Anglican communion, and the Nigerian churches in Virginia were until they left in the top ten in attendance in the USA. As I said, growth isn’t the only indication of health,… Read more »

Cheryl Clough
14 years ago

Petre’s comment “…liberal Westerners, meanwhile, are trying to stem haemorrhaging congregations by absorbing secular values” made me chuckle. My understanding of history is that bold Christians were involved in the development of the secular state model. It’s just that part of history has been white-washed over for a few decades because it smelt a lit bit of “communism”. Drdanfee, I read your comment “Meanwhile, the rest of the planet is slowly moving on, step by step by step, into a less dead-ended set of corners..” after having finished my daily browse of my favourite internet sites. I loved this article… Read more »

Göran Koch-Swahne
14 years ago

“Orthodoxy yesterday and Orthodoxy tomorrow, but NEVER Orthodoxy today”…

Dave’s got a point ;=)

(but then, being anti-modern has nothing to do with being “orthodox” – most anti-moderns are manifestly very modern and late modern).

Göran Koch-Swahne
14 years ago

“… the safest prediction is that conservative realignment folks will hunker down and come up with some additional condemnations to throw at the rest of us in Jesus’ name.”

But they have already lost part of their credibility – every thing they do from now on will make them lose more of it.

seeker
seeker
14 years ago

‘..the primate’s personal views on the nature of the Eucharist and the theological significance of receiving the sacraments. The Global South coalition contains a wide range of theological views from Anglo-Catholic to low-church Evangelical, the leader said. ..’

Diversity on the central Christian mystery /

So why not be honest about their diversity on seualities ? Why not recognize two integrieites ? !

Göran Koch-Swahne
14 years ago

James Crocker wrote to Josh Thomas: “Might want to be careful what you say here. I’m sure Akinola gets plenty of death threats. And martyrdom isn’t exactly foreign to any of the global south primates.”

Sorry James, but where did you get martyrdom from? Canon Tundes libel against Mr Mac-Iyalla? The pending Nigerian legislation, much promoted by the Nigerian Primate’s Office?

mynsterpreost (=David Rowett)
mynsterpreost (=David Rowett)
14 years ago

Seeker asked:
So why not be honest about their diversity on seualities ? Why not recognize two integrieites ? !

A cynic would reply that you can get people all stirred up about ‘family values’ and even tap into funding, whereas a disagreement over transubstantiation/transignification/receptionism/tokenism and the rest would just about make an article on page 47 of the Church Times. In a quiet week, that is. And, of course, such a discussin would show many (though not all) self-styled reasserters to be at variance with ancient Christian teaching……..

Ford Elms
Ford Elms
14 years ago

Exactly, David. Not too many conservative American billionaires will donate money to put forward a Defence of Eucharist Act, or indeed, and act to protect any sacrament other than marriage.

JCF
JCF
14 years ago

Now, now, Kurt: if things look nice on the far side of the Tiber for Allan (or anyone else) they’re welcome to it. No need to diss Rome, just because. [Now, dissing Rome because they (pay to) violate my *civil rights* is another kettle of stinkin’ fish, entirely! >:-0] Besides, we get the cream of the Roman crop, “swimming the Thames” the other way! 😀 ***** Re the Primates Meeting— Thus far, Rev. Susan Russell’s headline of a year ago (or more) looks solid: “what if they gave a schism, and nobody came?” From my prog Episcopal POV, I’m reminded… Read more »

mynsterpreost (=David Rowett)
mynsterpreost (=David Rowett)
14 years ago

James: I’m not even sure about growth being an indication of blessing. Tesco (the UK supermarket chain, think Wal-Mart but without the ethical edge) is ‘growing’ its market share…. Ronald McDonald is hardly the world’s greatest purveyor of eco-friendly nutritious foodstuffs…. There is a lot of naivety in this ‘African growth’ stuff, and we risk ending up with a Dutch auction of who can be toughest on perceived deviants, Islam or Christianity, in an attempt to corner the market in converts. Like I often lament, why are there so few Christian sociologists and anthropologists? As for the martyrdom ‘thing’ among… Read more »

Christopher Shell
Christopher Shell
14 years ago

It is either (I guess) a low view of human integrity or a pan-psychologism that makes Giles Fraser attribute to hatred what could equally be attributed to conviction, to conclusions one has come to.
Which agegroup interprets everything in terms of emotions and nothing in terms of reason? Adolescents? Children?

Ford Elms
Ford Elms
14 years ago

And which age group takes everything at face value? Not that the face value of a lot of conservative actions is any great shakes. Leaving aside the fact that the left is not guiltless, do you really not see hatred in the actions of the Right? I’m not trying to say that a belief that homosexuality is sinful can be called hatred. But look at the other actions, look at the bunker mentality with its inherent false witness, look at the hatred, anger, and suspicion engendered in the simple person in the pew. I have heard far more of these… Read more »

Kurt
Kurt
14 years ago

Point taken, JCF. Actually, many of my Christian heroes are/were members of the Roman Church. I just don’t understand why anyone would want to join such an authoritarian organization.

Christopher Shell
Christopher Shell
14 years ago

Hatred is the necessary newtonian equal-and-opposite obverse of love. The amount one loves God is liable to be connected to the amount one hates the devil. The amount one loves one’s child (or even the church) is intimately connected to the amount one hates anything that is working against the best interests of that child (or church): anything that could cause her harm. There is no alternative to hating anything sinful and hurtful, even hating it a lot. The alternatives are three: (a) being indifferent to it (which is psychotic); (b) loving it (which is something like the sin against… Read more »

Ford Elms
Ford Elms
14 years ago

Give me a break, Christopher. Hatred isn’t so much the opposite of love as it is the child of fear. Surely our love of God is better predicated on our being overwhelmed by His profligate love for us than in any hatred of the Devil. Likewise, love of one’s child is surely in response to the child rather than in response to what you fear as endangering the child. Jesus tells us not to fear. Odd that that seems to be “a Scripture” happily skipped over by Evangelicals. And there is an alternative to hatred of anything sinful and hurtful:… Read more »

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