Thinking Anglicans

Tanzanian interview by Rowan Williams

The Guardian newspaper in Tanzania carried this report: Interview with The Archbishop of Canterbury Rowan Williams.

Jim Naughton has some comments about this, and also makes reference to the Lambeth Conference encyclical of 1878, see Alarming words from Rowan Williams.

42
Leave a Reply

avatar
3000
42 Comment threads
0 Thread replies
0 Followers
 
Most reacted comment
Hottest comment thread
28 Comment authors
Fred SchaeferSteve Watson.Jerry HannonMartin Reynoldsruidh Recent comment authors
  Subscribe  
newest oldest
Notify of
Andy McMullon
Guest
Andy McMullon
Brian Evans
Guest
Brian Evans

I’m sure this has been said before, but it all boils down to numbers. If the recognition of the goodness of gay partnerships were to result in millions of new members for the Anglican Church over the next years there would be a different result to the present debate. There are certainly millions of gay people who may very well take another look at the C of E (and Christ) if this were to be the case, but who has the courage to risk – or trust.

Thomas Renz
Guest
Thomas Renz

The Lambeth Conference encyclical of 1878 on “Union Among the Churches of the Anglican Communion” sets forth principles which presume the kind of common trust and understanding which is currently lacking in the Anglican Communion. This does not mean that the principles have now been set aside and ignored – the Dar es Salaam communique aims to get us back on track in this respect and it thus reaffirms the principles.

In fact, is not the vision behind the Lambeth Conference encyclical of 1878 precisely the reason why the election of a bishop cannot be an entirely local affair? Just wondering.

Laurence Roberts
Guest
Laurence Roberts

NB
‘First, that the duly certified action of every national or particular Church, and of each ecclesiastical province (or diocese not included in a province), in the exercise of its own discipline, should be respected by all the other Churches, and by their individual members.’

Lambeth Encyclical

This shows just how far ‘the primates’ are going in violation of the spirit and letter of historic anglicanism.

Laurence Roberts
Guest
Laurence Roberts

What would Williams like to do with those already ordained throughout the ministry and episcopate worldwide? Especially those ordained and consecrated by himself, Carey; ‘the grey archbishop of York’, Runcie and so on…..

Why is there so much dishonesty
and hypocrisy in all this ?

Terence Dear
Guest
Terence Dear

I’m praying that the House of Bishops of TEC, at its March meeting, will come off the ropes fighting and seriously challenge the roles and the authority of both the so-called “Primates’ Meeting” and the Archbishop of Canterbury. The HofB might consider issuing a demand that the “Primates’ Meeting” explain where its own authority lies and by what right it is seeking to interfere in the affairs of independent churches of the Communion. Setting a tight deadline for the Primates’ response might be useful so as to allow the HofB further time to consider its position before the end of… Read more »

David Walker
Guest
David Walker

Just a couple of clarifications. The Dar communique is clearly about ordination to the episcopate, and is silent on other orders. This recognises the universal dimension to the office of bishop which is not present ( or at least not to the same degree) for deacons and priests. I expect that is what Rowan meant, though if the report is accurate he did not make that clarification explicit. The C of E position (since the early 90’s) has been that being in an active sexual relationship (including a committed same sex relationship) outside of marriage is a bar to a… Read more »

Steve Watson.
Guest
Steve Watson.

Archbishop Williams’ words are crystal clear: “The stance of the Anglican Communion is clear: It has never said anything other than that. The ordination of active homosexuals is not acceptable. It has never said anything other than that the marriage of same sex-couples is not to be admitted. That`s what the Lambeth Conference said in 1998, and every meeting has said so since then.” Those who can’t accept this in good conscience need to move on, and stop wasting time, energy and money (theirs and others). Step out in faith. Start up churches in school halls and homes, bless civil… Read more »

Doug Chaplin
Guest

I would caution against reading too much into the precise wording of the interview. There seems to have been a certain amount of translation between African English and British English going on, never mind any subsequent editing.

Leonardo Ricardo
Guest
Leonardo Ricardo

“…step out in faith.”

Steve Watson

Nah, why don’t we just step outside, because we ain’t going nowhere/nohow partner.

C.B.
Guest
C.B.

Steve – If the ABC finds the teaching of the C of E crystal clear why are there at least 50 openly gay priests who have entered into civil unions in England in the church. How many more are in relationships but not in civil unions, yet. What will be the response of the church in the coming years when thousands if church going people enter into the civil unions but find themselves in a church that does not recognize their relationships. What will the church say to the tens of thousands of children who are raised by loving committed… Read more »

Cheryl Clough
Guest

I would clarify Naughton’s article that ABC’s move is more than bedding down with one particular camp within the Anglican Communion. It is looking to copy the worst of Rome. Here is an article from a Catholic woman priest in the US http://www.beliefnet.com/blogs/godspolitics/2007/02/rose-marie-berger-catholic-womenpriests.html It talks of the censorship within that church, and reminds me of the attempts to deny there were gays in Nigeria. The other concern about the ban on ordination of gays, full stop is that both the Anglican and Catholic communions have been ordaining gays for centuries (and just not talking about/admitting to their sexuality). The other… Read more »

Lapinbizarre
Guest
Lapinbizarre

I recall recently reading elsewhere in Thinking Anglicans that Williams, as archbishop of Wales, declined to sign the 1998 Lambeth resolution. Can anyone shed light on this? If true, it could have inplications for the arcbishop’s state of mind, or for his integrity.

Steve Watson.
Guest
Steve Watson.

Moi? a hypocrite? Guilty. But don’t shoot me for quoting the ABC. – The 50 priests in civil unions in England – well, I recall reading on the ‘net a lot of people said it wasn’t a good idea at the time. I see that the General Synod in England will be debating this again. Ambiguity is not a Christian virtue (remember all that ‘let your yes by yes’ stuff). Should have just said no – like the Anglican Church in New Zealand, where civil unions (including male-female ones) exist. – “What will the church say to the tens of… Read more »

Terence Dear
Guest
Terence Dear

Nobody is suggesting that a church in the Anglican Communion should be free to “vary the content of its faith and practice without limit” (David Walker). The main point at issue is whether sexual orientation and its expression should be THE defining criteria of orthodoxy. There is not a Christian ‘Doctrine of Heterosexuality’, after all. The Councils of the Church never promulgated one; the Creeds don’t include it as an article of Faith; and the issue is not addressed in the historical formularies. Even Rowan Williams sees the whole issue as a matter of discipline rather than doctrine. Which leads… Read more »

Richard Lyon
Guest
Richard Lyon

Oh My!

The Anglican “franchise” sounds like a hamburger stand. Does it come with fries?

Göran Koch-Swahne
Guest

Steve Watson wrote: “Well, I don’t know of any kids raised by actively Bisexual parents (do you?) – and I don’t know what a ‘faithful committed’ relationship for a Bisexual is: a menage a trois, I suppose? Can anyone please tell me? Others have raised this question here but nobody offers an answer.”

Do try to be serious. Bisexuality is not Bigamy.

(not that it would matter much after Lambeth 1988 acknowledging Polygamy as a Christian way of life ;=)

Rebecca Lyman
Guest
Rebecca Lyman

You may note Bill Franklin’s article in the Tablet (posted earlier on this site) which notes the impact of the RC-AC ecumenical dialouges over the past decades and the adoption of the notion of “koinoia” for the Anglican Communion. This is in part where the new “need” for definition and enforcement as part of the structure of the polity comes into play. But this is a perfect storm of culture, theological conflict, political power and the new globalism. All threads have to be acknowledged, not just “scripture”.

Ruth
Guest
Ruth

Well, this is off topic, but I post it to demonstrate that there is SOME good news out of Dar Es Salaam. I am a lawyer and I work often with hydrogeologists as expert witnesses. One such individual is currently in Dar Es Salaam. He writes: “We’re staying in a little cottage on the grounds of a medical clinic set up to serve one of the poorest areas of Dar Es Salaam. It is mid-summer (south of the equator) and very hot and humid. Our cottage has running water about 10 percent of the time (unpredictable) and electricity most of… Read more »

Fr Joseph O'Leary
Guest
Fr Joseph O'Leary

Surely Rowan Williams’ style has been doctored in that interview?

I think he deserves kudos for keeping the Communion together and getting the Primates to discuss the gay issues at such length.

But I also think that Jefferts Schori stole the show. Was she the only woman there? She uses a woman’s weapons, those of the heart.

Now we can only hope that with her inspiration the US Bishops and faithful will make a clear prophetic statement — in the key of dialogue to be sure — and do something to lift the leaden atmosphere.

rh
Guest
rh

The “teaching” of the Anglican Communion? What is that, exactly? We have no central authority. Lambeth is advisory, at best. The Primates have no authority over other Provinces. Refer to Lambeth 1.10 all you want. It isn’t binding. There’s no mechanism to make it binding. We can ask all manner of things from one another, but none of us has right to demand anything. If we desire to change this manner of life together, then ask each Province to give assent to a different way. Until that happens, we need to be clear that the authority of our bishops and… Read more »

drdanfee
Guest
drdanfee

Oh my, when Rowan Williams talks like this I begin to be sure he means it, every bit as much as the realignment folks who also say similar things. If so, we are not going to have a listening process supported by any season of fasting; but a gay bashing free for all, at least inside the churches. Until they feel strong enough once again to bash outside, in wider society? Naughton’s alarm about the implicit agreement with making Lambeth meetings and the like internationally authoritative should also be heard. This is all consistent with what the USA rightwing funders… Read more »

Pluralist
Guest

I think the interviewer was expecting signs and wonders, and got few. He was full of assumptions, and they were not matched. Notice that Archbihsop Williams stonewalled the personal position question, regarding homosexuality and same sex marriages. A:I have said what the position of the church is and that`s the position I teach. …the resolution of the Lambeth conference in 1998. That is the position that I teach…. As Archbishop, bishop, priest of the church, that is the teaching which I must keep my allegiance with. So he has disappeared as an individual. There is something wrong here. This is… Read more »

Laurence Roberts
Guest
Laurence Roberts

‘I recall recently reading elsewhere in Thinking Anglicans that Williams, as archbishop of Wales, declined to sign the 1998 Lambeth resolution. Can anyone shed light on this? If true, it could have inplications for the arcbishop’s state of mind, or for his integrity.’ Posted by: Lapinbizarre on Monday, 26 Feb. 2007 Yes, and in fact he was one of the 146 signatories of a letter apologizing to lesbian and gay people; and pldeging support to us. He was bp of Monmouth at the time (if memory serves me roight). What do the other 145 intend to do now, to fulfill… Read more »

Lapinbizarre
Guest
Lapinbizarre

Stepford Primates! Lovely idea, Pluralist. Concerning my earlier inquiry about Rowan Williams and the 1998 Lambeth Conference, he was – as bishop of Monmouth, not as archbishop of Wales – one of 146 bishops (eight of them primates) to sign the “Pastoral Statement to Lesbian and Gay Anglicans”: http://www.mindspring.com/~bcglm1/lesgay-anglicans.html More on this and on other aspects of Williams’ “endorsement of gay agenda” may be found on VirtueOnline, at the following URL. http://www.virtueonline.org/portal/modules/news/article.php?storyid=5546 It is possible that some assertions made in this piece could usefully be the subject of supplementary fact-checking, but if substantially true, as I suspect that it may… Read more »

Laurence Roberts
Guest
Laurence Roberts

‘One such individual is currently in Dar Es Salaam. He writes: “We’re staying in a little cottage on the grounds of a medical clinic set up to serve one of the poorest areas of Dar Es Salaam. It is mid-summer (south of the equator) and very hot and humid. Our cottage has running water about 10 percent of the time (unpredictable) and electricity most of the time (also unpredictable). We have no TV, no radio, no stereo, no telephone (other than our cell phones which are 5$ per minute), no oven, no microwave, no air conditioning, no car, no Starbucks… Read more »

Laurence Roberts
Guest
Laurence Roberts

Here is an article from a Roman Catholic woman priest in the US http://www.beliefnet.com/blogs/godspolitics/2007/02/rose-marie-berger-catholic-womenpriests.html It talks of the censorship within that church, and reminds me of the attempts to deny there were gays in Nigeria. Very encouraging Cheryl. This movement of spirit. I believe there is at least one woman RC priest in Yorkshire, UK. Also, a very interesting website and eamil sign up facility. Has anyone here had the experience of the ministry of RC women priests, I wonder ? I remember the joy when women were ordained in the UK anglican churches ; and the joy when a… Read more »

Malcolm French+
Guest
Malcolm French+

drdanfee said: “Does he wish to be Primer inter Pares in nothing but a FiF, Reform, Anglican Mainstream sort of communion which identifies policing as one of its major worldwide ministries?”

His Grace of Canterbury has long since ceded the leadership of the Communion to the Primate of Nigeria. ++Rowan is now merely secundus inter pares.

Erika Baker
Guest
Erika Baker

Steve Watson just in case your question really was serious: When you’re straight you love people from the other sex, but it does not mean that you have multiple partners, certainly not at the same time. When you’re gay you love people of the same sex, but you’re still able to stick to one at a time! When you’re bisexual you are physically and mentally capable of loving people of either sex. But you would still only choose one at a time! As for kids being actively raised by bisexual parents – meet my girls! They have absolutely no problem… Read more »

Jerry Hannon
Guest
Jerry Hannon

Steve Watson wrote: “AFAIK, homosexual men do very little parenting; as everywhere in life, nurturing is overwhelmingly a female task.” As the heterosexual father of two daughters and one son, I can’t claim any direct insight into the parenting capabilities of “homosexual men.” Following the death of my first wife, I was the single parent of my then-seven year old daughter, and remained so for four years until I remarried. I very much doubt that “homosexual men” are any less capable, than I was,of being a nurturing parent. Perhaps Mr. Watson lacks parenting experience, and I can therefore understand his… Read more »

drdanfee
Guest
drdanfee

Oh please Mr Watson, visit COLAGE – children of lesbians and gays everywhere – and get a statistical clue. See: http://www.colage.org In particular see, the …/resources/summary.htm page. More than ten million people in USA have one or more LGBT parents. You might think that that statistic alone would whet the appetites of churches to reach out to all these non-traditional parents/families/children. But do not hold your breath, unless you are good at turning blue from oxygen deprivation. We in the USA and maybe also in Canada and probably elsewhere, too, have had the gayby boom for years now. Childcare and… Read more »

IT
Guest
IT

I do not think Mr Watson’s perjorative remarks are unintentionally anything, Jerry.

My two step kids are doing fine, thanks, with me and their mom, who is my partner.

I know many gay couples, M/M or F/F, raising happy, healthy kids. Studies show that kids raised by gay parents are just as well adjusted as kids raised by straight parents.

They apparently are more tolerant of others who are different, however.

Perhaps Mr Watson should focus on something he knows about, since his post shows he knows nothing about GLBT.

Göran Koch-Swahne
Guest

Joseph O’Leary wrote: “I think he deserves kudos for keeping the Communion together and getting the Primates to discuss the gay issues at such length.” Discuss?? Have a look at Steve Watson’s 2.45 comment, and you’ll see the level this discussion moves on. “Bisexuality is a Ménage à trios”, “impaired in developing a relationship with the opposite sex”, ” homosexual men do very little parenting …. nurturing is overwhelmingly a female task”, “troubled”… And so on and so on. To which the Primates gathered at The White Sands added: “The “low point” of the Primates’ Meeting came, Jefferts Schori said,… Read more »

Göran Koch-Swahne
Guest

DrDanFee says: “visit COLAGE – children of lesbians and gays everywhere – and get a statistical clue. See: http://www.colage.org In particular see, the …/resources/summary.htm page.“

But don’t you know, that only Cameron and Gagnon are acceptable “statistics” in the Anglican Communion? because only they are “obedient” to the only accepted “teaching” of (selected parts of) Lambeth 1998 1:10 ;=)

Cheryl Clough
Guest

Oh, Erika. I was so glad to see your posting.

I wanted to write what you wrote, but that would have been a theoretical conjecture. You are a first hand soul describing the possiblities and the choices that you made.

Well done.

Steve Watson.
Guest
Steve Watson.

Well, that got a response! For the record: 1. My question about bisexuality was entirely genuine. I have never understood what it meant to be ‘a Christian bisexual in a faithful committed relationship’ – because surely that means being either heterosexual or homosexual but not both at the same time? So, is a bisexual someone who hasn’t made up his/her mind about their sexual desires or someone planning to have a series of sexual relationships, if I understand Erika Baker’s comment: “When you’re bisexual you are physically and mentally capable of loving people of either sex. But you would still… Read more »

Erika Baker
Guest
Erika Baker

Oh Steve! It is generally accepted that human sexuality is a scale, with some being 100% homosexual, some being 100% heterosexual, and the rest of us somewherhe on the scale between those two extremes. Choice is irrelevant for most, because your sexuality is not only defined by your physical responses but by your capacity to feel emotionally close to your partner. So, yes, truly gay people are probably able to sustain some form of heterosexual relationship, but it will be emotionally crippling. They feel about it the same way you would feel if you were asked to form a partnership… Read more »

ruidh
Guest
ruidh

“Do readers really believe that two ‘fathers’ or two ‘mothers’ are just the same as a mother and father?” Of course it is not “just the same”. But not “just the same” doesn’t mean inferior. “If so, they understand very little about child psychology, especially the development of adolescent boys. Many marriages are far from perfect, but we should model heterosexual marriage to our children.” Why? “Jerry Hannon wrote: “Perhaps Mr. Watson would prefer that those two babies, now about 6 and 8 years of age, had been left in an orphanage in China, rather than adopted by an American… Read more »

Martin Reynolds
Guest

I believe Rowan Williams abstained from the vote on Lambeth 1.10. Our present Primate voted against.

Jerry Hannon
Guest
Jerry Hannon

Steve Watson responded to one of the several points of my previous posting by stating: “Jerry Hannon wrote: “Perhaps Mr. Watson would prefer that those two babies, now about 6 and 8 years of age, had been left in an orphanage in China, rather than adopted by an American man and his Englishman partner.” No, I would prefer they had been adopted by a mother and father.” Mr. Watson is evading the question, since the alternative choice was not being adopted by a husband and wife, but (A) being adopted by a man and his life male partner, or (B)… Read more »

Steve Watson.
Guest
Steve Watson.

Jerry, I’ll leave it to the Lord to decide whether I possess Christian charity. I know of numerous couples who would like to adopt from abroad, but they don’t have the money or knowhow to go about it. I know also of single people who have adopted. But as a general principle, adoption from abroad isn’t a good idea, and can be tainted by fraud or mishandling of money – not always, but it happens. Relatives should take on this task if the birth parents can’t or won’t.

Fred Schaefer
Guest

I noted the suggestion that disfranchised members should “go out and form their own congregations”. Should the edifices and monies stay with the hardliners or be split with the new thinkers who also helped build the Church?? An Archbishop now in complaint with the sexual orientation issue holds hostage a parcel of property that hasn’t been used or walked on for over one hundred years in a country deeply in need of missionary efforts instead of “socials and events to show costumes” Similar religions face this peril from ancient protocols of ther leadership. This from the lips of a Benedictine… Read more »