Thinking Anglicans

Williams to visit US bishops – early press reports

Anglican Journal (Canada) Williams will meet with U.S. bishops
Episcopal Life Online Archbishop of Canterbury announces plans to visit the Episcopal Church
Both of these report that the visit will take place during the regular autumn meeting of the US House of Bishops already scheduled to take place in New Orleans from 20 to 25 September.

Jonathan Petre in the Telegraph Williams to meet liberal bishops over gays

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Erika BakerFord ElmsNPMynsterpreost (=David Rowett)Dallas Bob Recent comment authors
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Charles Bird
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Charles Bird

The Archbishop of Canterbury’s address to the University of Toronto earlier today (April 16, 2007) entitled “The Bible: Reading and Hearing” can be found at

http://www.trinity.utoronto.ca/News_Events/News/archbishop.htm

Jim Pratt
Guest
Jim Pratt

“The reaction was a very strongly worded protest against what they see as interference, but if not that, then what? I’ve spoken privately to people in the United States and am waiting to see,” he said.

Is anyone else troubled by this quote (from the Anglican Journal article). With whom has he spoken privately? I venture a guess that it was NOT the Presiding Bishop.

Fr Joseph O'Leary
Guest

So there was never any question of the ABC turning down the US Bishops’ invitation? Delighted to hear it, but wondering how so many sources given on this site gave the completely opposition impression.

He makes the usual points about Anglican unity with his usual force and clarity — and rightly hopes Canada and the US can do something to respect disagreement while battling against fundamentalism.

ChrisM
Guest
ChrisM

Way to Go ABC!!

You see, he never intended to decline the invitation – it was just nervous people putting words into his mouth.

I await the mass outpouring of relief – and apology – from those who feared ++Canterbury would never set foot in the US and worse still who presumed to tell us he never intended to do so.

Unless, that is, you still don’t believe what he says…..

NP
Guest
NP

Good lecture.

I like the ABC’s emphasis on “LISTENING” …….

to scripture.

badman
Guest
badman

I think this is all water under the bridge now, but the reason why there was, in fact, some question about whether he would accept the invitation was that he responded to the House of Bishops resolutions within 24 hours with an official statement saying they were “discouraging” but did not then, or at any time until yesterday, indicate that he would accept the invitation. This suggested that he was thinking about it. Indeed, the official word from Lambeth Palace was that the invitation was under “active consideration”. If, in fact, he always intended to accept, but waited 2 months… Read more »

Ford Elms
Guest
Ford Elms

“I await the mass outpouring of relief – and apology – from those who feared ++Canterbury would never set foot in the US and worse still who presumed to tell us he never intended to do so.” I’m not at all relieved, since I wasn’t at all upset in the first place. I never really cared all that much. It seemed to make sense that he would feel more comfortable among his more seemly Canadian counterparts. But, in so far as any will take my previous words as some form of indignation at what was seen to be the situation… Read more »

Cheryl Clough
Guest

ChrisM You have my mass outpouring of relief that he is attending (already recorded on another TA post). You do not have my apology because he has not been “even handed” in his treatment of the US Episcopal church and has neglected his “husbandly duties” to service this wife, whilst sojourning on many occassions with others on US soil in recent years and months. Wisdom would suggest he drink from the established well, but he seems to have been satisfied by the wells of the non-established factions in the US church. Maybe ABC will find that the well of his… Read more »

Lionel Deimel
Guest

Am I the only person who sees this move by Rowan Williams as cynical manipulation? He was not invited to a regular House of Bishops meeting, where our bishops discuss more than just our relationship with the Anglican Communion. He was invited to a special three-day meeting that, I assume, our bishops expected to take place long before their regular September meeting. The Archbishop has managed to avoid the kind of discussions Episcopal bishops intended and will instead be an intimidating presence at this most crucial September meeting. The Presiding Bishop, who, I pray, had no part in this Machiavellian… Read more »

drdanfee
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drdanfee

Our dilemma is not that some of us listen to scripture, and others of us do not listen to scripture, NP. Maybe our dilemma is that when you listen to scripture, your hermeneutic frames and approaches school you to expect something which can by definition mean only one, single thing, a meaning A which is partly defined by what is not meant, null-A. As if poetry were trustworthy and revelatory of truth because we could always boil it down, simply and clearly, to something very like the consistencies of mathematics and geometry. Listening via a one-way flow – which too… Read more »

Ford Elms
Guest
Ford Elms

“I like the ABC’s emphasis on “LISTENING” “

NP, those of us who are not fundamentalists still believe in the truth of Scripture, in the necessity to read, mark, learn, and inwardly digest it, and of following it’s teachings in our daily lives. We are no more given to ignoring the bits we don’t like than you fundamentalists. I would argue less so, but that’s a personal judgement. Why do you persist in the falsehood that those of us who do not read Scripture the way you do are faithless and have no respect for it?

Martin Reynolds
Guest

Lionel, you cannot expect the ABC not to have few moves of his own!

For myself, I cannot see now – nor then – what such an invitation hoped to achieve. We shall just have to wait and see.

Cheryl Clough
Guest

Lionel

I can relate to your concerns. It parallels the naive woman hoping that the man will “respect her in the morning” to later find out that all he wanted was the conquest and had no regard to her feelings after he had scored another notch on his steering wheel.

Laurence Roberts
Guest
Laurence Roberts

“It’s good to talk !”

NP
Guest
NP

Ford – the reason I persist in thinking “liberals” pick and choose which verses they will obey is that there are priests and bishops teaching that people can ignore certain verses (not verses against, for example, greed but only certain other verses) So, we have Lambeth 1.10 as the position of the church and its reading of Scripture yet we have people who have sworn oaths, among other things, to uphold the teaching of the church directly disobeying and encouraging others to do so, even if that means being dishonest. How does this have integrity? How is this “listening” to… Read more »

Ford Elms
Guest
Ford Elms

“there are priests and bishops teaching that people can ignore certain verses (not verses against, for example, greed but only certain other verses)” But NP, it’s not only “liberals” who do this, as you well know. Space prevents me from listing what I have listed many times in the past. Besides, the Bible is a collection of books, not verses, and what you are talking about sounds an awful lot like Bible mining and proof texting, which are not good things. Your warning bells should sound everytime someone says “I have a Scripture that proves X.” That is a sure… Read more »

Hugh of Lincoln
Guest
Hugh of Lincoln

I agree with Lionel, that although TEC’s request was answered, the HoB would have preferred an earlier visit by ABC. Beggars can’t be choosers, eh…

Being so close to the deadline, will ABC’s delegation use it to supervise the drafting of HoB’s resolutions to urge compliance with the Dar es Salaam communique? The ABC will be looking for alternatives to his pastoral scheme, for sure.

Malcolm French+
Guest
Malcolm French+

NP said: “Ford – the reason I persist in thinking “liberals” pick and choose which verses they will obey is that there are priests and bishops teaching that people can ignore certain verses (not verses against, for example, greed but only certain other verses)”

Tripe.

The “conservatives” likewise pick and choose verses. The issue here is that the “conservatives” would force everyone to conform to their selection of verses.

NP
Guest
NP

Ford – I completely agree with you that it is not reliable to prove things from single verses! But single verses can summarise biblical teaching on a subject eg a verse which says do not lie cannot be taken to mean, it’s ok to lie just because someone says that it is only one verse, I am sure you will agree. You can take the whole bible, all its teaching on marriage, all its teaching on holy living in response to grace (eg Rom 6), all its teaching on standards for leaders and you can never get a positive justification… Read more »

JPM
Guest
JPM

>>>So, we have Lambeth 1.10 as the position of the church and its reading of Scripture yet we have people who have sworn oaths, among other things, to uphold the teaching of the church directly disobeying and encouraging others to do so, even if that means being dishonest. Lambeth 1.10, which has apparently assumed the status of Holy Scripture, also forbids remarriage after divorce: [the report]…in view of the teaching of Scripture, upholds faithfulness in marriage between a man and a woman in lifelong union, and believes that abstinence is right for those who are not called to marriage; yet… Read more »

Fr Joseph O'Leary
Guest

“You can take the whole bible, all its teaching on marriage, all its teaching on holy living in response to grace (eg Rom 6), all its teaching on standards for leaders and you can never get a positive justification for VGR being a bishop – can you?” Sure you can. The New Testament teaches in the very strongest terms and in countless places the primacy of Love, and VGR has been recognized by his church as a man who loves the church and who conducts his own personal life in a loving and responsible way — more than most of… Read more »

NP
Guest
NP

Hmmmm – so, FJOL,
Rev Armstrong in Colorado can be excused if he is found guilty of fraud if, as you say, he “has been recognized by his church as a man who loves the church and who conducts his own personal life in a loving and responsible way”

You would buy that as an excuse for him to break clear biblical teaching on the standards required of leaders??

Ford Elms
Guest
Ford Elms

“single verses can summarise biblical teaching” Very very rarely. Let me put it this way, would there be a Christianity if we didn’t have the New Testament? I would say of course. The Incarnation is not dependent on things a group of men wrote 2000 years ago, regardless of their Divine Inspiration (in which I firmly believe, BTW). Christianity is based on Christ, not the Bible. The Gospel is not the gospels, and perhaps this is where we are tripping up. I suspect that, for you, the Christian faith and the Christian Scriptures are one and the same. I disagree.… Read more »

NP
Guest
NP

Ford – the point was that I cannot reconcile fraud “with living one’s life in a loving and responsible way” …… I am not the one who claims someone can do that while continuing unrepentant in sin.

( I think we agree with the danger of single verses and the importance of reading in context to see the meaning)

Dallas Bob
Guest
Dallas Bob

I think it is telling that conservatives equate gay people living in loving, committed relationships (eg. Bishop Robinson) with those who would steal. How anyone could compare the two is truly beyond me. There is nothing at all wrong with gay people in loving relationships, but even if you believe it is wrong, how can you compare it to stealing? With that mindset, jaywalking is the same as murder – for both are against the law. We Episcopalians have a historic chance to stand up and show the world Christianity need not be backward and intellectually insulting. I pray we… Read more »

NP
Guest
NP

Well Dallas Bob – you clearly think you have authority to rewrite or cut out scriptures you do not like / agree with – who gave you that authority and when?

Ford Elms
Guest
Ford Elms

NP,
Fr. Joseph’s point was that, in the case of VGR, living such a life is something we ought to consider as we ponder the meaning of the clobber verses to whose literal meaning you are so attached. Such a life and homosexuality are not mutually exclusive. “living one’s life in a loving and responsible way”, however, is exclusive of fraud, therefor the two cannot be reconciled. Simple.

NP
Guest
NP

Ford – but I am sure you can see that if one is not willing to deviate from the biblical teaching, stealing and other sins are equivalent.

(incidentally, this is why I do not feel better than anybody else because I am as guilty as anyone – but not unrepentent in trying to justify any sin)

Ford Elms
Guest
Ford Elms

“this is why I do not feel better than anybody else “
In which case your repeated accusations that those who do not believe as you do are faithless, your insufferable gloating over what you see as the decline of “liberal” churches, your refusal to even acknowledge the possibility that it is narrow, judgemental Churchianity that alienates people from the Church (and I have repeatedly stated that EVERYONE I know who hates Christianity hates the representation of the faith that people like you put forward), these constitute what exactly? Sounds like superiority to me.

Erika Baker
Guest
Erika Baker

NP,
I think you’re not being quite truthful when you’re saying that you (believe you)are as guilty as anyone.

You believe that many of us deliberately live a life that is sinful according to your reading of scripture.
I don’t think that you would say that of yourself.

NP
Guest
NP

Erika – you are right, according to a preacher in Palestine a couple of millennia ago, there is a huge difference between a sinner and a sinner who repents. Ford – (you’re in a bad mood with me today! sorry for irritating you) – firstly, as I have said, this terrible “conservative message” you hate so much is filling churches with old and young, rich and poor, black and white all across London in my experience, ….. so I do not know what you mean about alienation. It is true we preach “repent and believe” so maybe we alienate those… Read more »

Ford Elms
Guest
Ford Elms

“Warn them before God against quarreling about words” Guess we oughtta shut down TA, then! You repeatedly accuse people of “picking and choosing” what they want to believe, as though all the discussion currently going on among those who have obeyed Lambeth and engaged with gay people is merely accomodating to the world. You have never even hinted that such actions might actually be based on faith rather than searching for the popularity with the world you so obviously value. What’s wrong with not being willing to tell someone else that their opinion on something that can only ever be… Read more »

Dallas Bob
Guest
Dallas Bob

I have the same authority to cut out scriptures I don’t like as David Roseberry does with Jesus’s direct admonition against divorce. Hey, since all sins are equivalent – Let’s have life in prison without parole for jaywalking. Consevatives either engage in or come dangerously close to engaging in bibilical idolatry. Episcopalians don’t worship the Bible – we worship Almighty God. Our God is not so small that He can not be contained in and constrained by a little book. Scripture, tradition, and reason are all 3 key. As the Episcopal slogan goes, Jesus died to take away our sins,… Read more »

NP
Guest
NP

Dallas Bob – I would not give Mr Roseberry any special exemptions either…..

Time is on your side…..have you prjoected the rate of decline in TEC numbers fifty years into the future??

Ford Elms
Guest
Ford Elms

NP,
Have you thought that God is God, and can do anything He wants in 50 years? That perhaps He is leading the more liberal wing of the Church throught this now for some purpose? it is usually Evangelicals who speak of God as having a purpose for the individual’s life, an odd thought to me, but still. Can you not contemplate that perhaps He can have a plan for groups as well?

NP
Guest
NP

Certainly, Ford, but I doubt he is planning great growth as he has never done that before with false teaching – it looks to me that He is leading “liberals” to walk away from the AC and die slowly as a separate denomination.

The history of “liberal” CofE churches in England in the last 100 years is the foundation for my expectation of what He is doing with “liberal” churches – he has never blessed the “inclusive” message with many followers and they have only survived because of other people’s financial support.

Erika Baker
Guest
Erika Baker

NP,
And we know that God is primarily motivated by great growth – because he started out with one man and 13 followers?
If I use your circular arguments I could equally say that, just as the rigid majority crucified Jesus and murdered all but one of his disciples, so the liberal message is not obviously “blessed with followers”.
Doesn’t mean it’s wrong, though!
You really will have to stop playing that number game.

NP
Guest
NP

Erika – are you familiar with the parable of the mustard seed?

The failed “inclusive” project now wants to claim authenticity because so few want to be included in its wishy-washy unclear message!

Erika, the Kingdom of God is certainly about growth – that is when the gospel is faithfully preached, even in England!

Ford Elms
Guest
Ford Elms

“he has never done that before with false teaching “ Ever hear of the Arians, NP? They were once far more numerous than the orthodox Christians. Or the Iconoclasts? Consider that the most numerous Churches in the world are the Roman Catholic and Orthodox, granted not liberal, but I get the feeling you’d consider their teaching false. “he has never blessed the “inclusive” message with many followers and they have only survived because of other people’s financial support” So you resent having to support struggling congregations? Well, see, the demographic may be different in different places. Please be aware that… Read more »

Mynsterpreost (=David Rowett)
Guest
Mynsterpreost (=David Rowett)

NP (again) “Erika, the Kingdom of God is certainly about growth – that is when the gospel is faithfully preached, even in England!” Ah, so the Gospel will never be unpopular? “Woe when all speak well of you..” We do need to rise above this sort of ‘I say we’re growing, so we’re God’s good guys’ stuff. Especially when cold statistics make it clear that Evangelicalism is declining as rapidly as other forms of Christianity. If the fastest growing faith numerically was (say)Islam, would that indicate to you God’s intention as well? Would you convert on the grounds of numbers… Read more »

Ford Elms
Guest
Ford Elms

“wishy-washy unclear message!” God loves you and wants you to live in the state of grace in which He created you, and from which you have fallen. He wants this so much that in His love for you, He came here Himself, became not just part of His Creation, but a poor, helpless part of that Creation, suffered the worst sufferings our Fallen state can throw at us, and in doing so set us free, healed the rift we had caused between ourselves and God, and redeemed His entire Creation. Follow Him and live in the new Creation. To do… Read more »

NP
Guest
NP

Ford – I agree with you on grace but we have to also keep Romans 6 in mind: a right response to grace is joyful repentance and seeking after holiness

Ford Elms
Guest
Ford Elms

NP,
“a right response to grace is joyful repentance and seeking after holiness”

which is exactly what I meant by:

“Follow Him and live in the new Creation. To do so, live for Him, be Him in the world, feed the hungry, clothe the naked, visit the captives, fight the oppression of God’s children.”

Erika Baker
Guest
Erika Baker

NP,
In recent posts you have defended women’s right to teach (against Paul.
You have defended someone’s right to spend their money in any way they wish simply because they have paid their taxes (against Scripture’s clear call for the morally acceptable use of money).

It sometimes seems to me that your call to joyfuil repentance is particularly loud when YOU are talking about MY sins.