Thinking Anglicans

views of the Anglican Communion

Episcopal Café has a major article by Archbishop Njongonkulu Ndungane:

The Primate of the Anglican Church of South Africa delivered a long and thorough address at St. Saviours Church this past Tuesday.

In his address, the Archbishop shares his concerns about the present state of the Anglican Communion, how the Church of South Africa came to be a part of the Communion and talks about the present roles of the “Instruments of Unity” as described by the Windsor Report. He speaks about what future course the Anglican Communion might take, both in terms of the roles of the Instruments of Unity and in terms of the relationships of the various provinces to each other.

Read the full address here.

Three other articles:

In response to the most recent ACI, Inc. article by Ephraim Radner, Vocation Deferred: The Necessary Challenge of Communion, Tobias Haller has written Rearranging the Chairs.

Christopher Seitz has written another article for the Anglican Communion Institute, Inc. this one titled Possibilities for an Anglican Future?

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Pluralist
Guest

It looks like the ACI and Christopher Seitz are going to be disappointed, then. Because Archbishop Njongonkulu Ndungane’s piece clearly states that 800 bishop hours werer lost to an hour-and-a-half plenary meeting producing Resolution 1:10, that the Subgroup found that the General Convention [of TEC] had gone beyond what had been asked by Windsor and elsewhere had operated within its own polity to reflect the spirit of Windsor which was not the position that was reflected in the final communiqué, he sees the danger of setting up something that looks like a Curia and wonders if this Covenant is needed… Read more »

drdanfee
Guest
drdanfee

The only quibble I have with Bishop N’s long and thoughtful talk suddenly comes at the very end when he seems to be saying that while sexual orientation is not ontological, genderized male/female differences nonetheless are ontological. Thus while we would not have gay/bi/straight in heaven, we would still have male/female. This is a little shift, too far in the LDS direction, for my best conscience, so I must dissent as a believer. I cannot yet join Bishop N. in saying that gender is ontological. Otherwise I find his remarks, especially his eyewitness testimony to what happened at Lambeth 1998… Read more »

Prior Aelred
Guest

Seriously, how does South Africa manage to get such outstanding primates?

Tobias has an excellent follow up piece about the nature of the church & covenant — I do wish I could marshal my thoughts & express them with such clarity & precision.

Ann
Guest

Marshall on Chaplain at Bedside has more on the Covenant.
http://tinyurl.com/2vc6pg

Cheryl Clough
Guest

I am grateful for Ndungane relating some of South Africa’s 1987 experiences with a Sydney Archbishop assisting the development of CESA in South Africa. So what the Nigerians are doing in the US has precedence.

It would be interesting to hear more about the experiences from South Afica. What has worked well and what has been vexatious.

I also note the history of forming Lambeth conferences and am reminded of a comment from a Presbyterian minister that they had got rid of bishops because they caused more problems than they solved…

Andrew
Guest
Andrew

Just in case the readers of this list missed it, in the same Jesus-like tone as Abp N’s message is an ad from the Episcopal Church on the page of the New York Times, p A25, today Saturday, May 12. It does make one proud, uh-oh, pleased, very pleased to be an Episcopalian.

Malcolm French+
Guest
Malcolm French+

Is there a link for this ad? A text? A scan? A pdf? What does it say?

Thomas Renz
Guest
Thomas Renz

“800 bishop hours were lost to an hour-and-a-half plenary meeting”? Archbishop Njongonkulu Ndungane also tells us that more than 600 bishops were present at the plenary meeting, so the plenary meeting actually counts for well over 900 bishop hours. Of course this does not minimise the pain of having one’s carefully drafted committee resolution revised in a plenary session…

John Foxe
Guest
John Foxe

How odd that Ndungane should mention the Colenso/Gray dispute and CESA without linking the two together! CESA’s origins are in that dispute when an Anglo-Catholic bishop was foisted on an evangelical province.

NP
Guest
NP

People do not listen to KJS – what makes you think they will listen to this guy given he, like her, fails to make a compelling scriptural case?

TEC GLobal, when launched with its inherited money, is welcome to Ndugane and his little SA church since this man will presumably lead them to worship the god called MDGs….CESA can then join the AC.

Viriato da Silva
Guest
Viriato da Silva

“TEC GLobal, when launched with its inherited money, is welcome to Ndugane and his little SA church since this man will presumably lead them to worship the god called MDGs….CESA can then join the AC.” The way things are going (especially after ++Akinola’s recent laying-on-hands-fly-by in Virginia), “TEC Global” will be within the AC, along with Brasil etc., and the Nigerians et al. will be outside of it, so the foregoing premise is fundamentally flawed. But let us assume for the sake of argument that NP is correct. If so, TEC, IAEB (Brasil), etc will be proud to be in… Read more »

Göran Koch-Swahne
Guest

I would be very interested to know exactly what NP means with the quaint phrase “compelling scriptural case”?

“Applicaton”? Dynamic Equivalcence? Late modern translations in general? The NIV?

cryptogram
Guest
cryptogram

“John Foxe” wrote: “CESA’s origins are in that dispute when an Anglo-Catholic bishop was foisted on an evangelical province.” That is a total misrepresentation. The truth is that Colenso was (in modern terms) a “liberal” in his biblical writings (he attacked the historicity of certain parts of the hexateuch, and the doctrine of eternal punishment), and an erastian in his polity. Gray was hardly an Anglo-Catholic, at any rate at the date of the schism in Natal. As a bishop, his appointment actually predated that of Colenso. The first Lambeth Conference urged Colenso to resign, but he refused with the… Read more »

Lapinbizarre
Guest
Lapinbizarre

SOME people do not listen to KJS, NP. Suspect that in the coming months we’re going to learn who, in fact, has been listening to whom.

Lapinbizarre
Guest
Lapinbizarre

“Ndugane and his little SA church”. Have you NO shame, NP?

Cynthia Gilliatt
Guest
Cynthia Gilliatt

“TEC GLobal, when launched with its inherited money…” What’s with the constant references to TEC’s money, and who do you think we “inherited” it from? The operating budget of TEC comes from the money sent to it annually from [theoretically] every diocese. There is a mathmatical formula I suppose that they use to calculate that assessment. In recent years, some few diocese have refused to send money or have reduced their giving to a token amount. That money is spent as budgeted. ERD {Episcopal Relief and Development}does its work of rescue and reconstruction on moneys donated by individuals, churches, and… Read more »

Malcolm French+
Guest
Malcolm French+

It is obvious what NP means by “compelling scriptural case.”

He means “a case that compelling sets out what I already believe.”

Andrew
Guest
Andrew

Here is a link to the New York Times ad.

http://www.episcopalchurch.org/documents/newYorkTimes_opAd.pdf

David H.
Guest

Göran asked, “I would be very interested to know exactly what NP means with the quaint phrase “compelling scriptural case”?

“Applicaton”? Dynamic Equivalcence? Late modern translations in general? The NIV? “

Why, the NIV of course. As wishfully interpreted by the current crop of neo-con, far right wingers.

NP
Guest
NP

No Malcolm – a compelling case would be one that is credible and backed up by scripture and tradition (i.e. not directly contradicting it and claiming some special revelation from the Spirit to do so)……

I am not the one trying to justify behaviour which is clearly forbidden……your deifinition of “a compelling case” fits a certain VGR very well

Cheryl Clough
Guest

LOL Malcolm but I would improve the grammar “a case that me and my mates thinks compellingly sets out what we already believe” Unwritten plea – please no one open the bible to find the passages that contradict our theories. And if they do, please God don’t enable them to have access to any forms of communication to let everyone else know that the the barn doors have been opened… See Isaiah 35:3-10 (the highways to Zion contain no wicked fools nor ferocious beasts) and Malachi 4:2-6 which includes “…you will go out and leap like calves released from the… Read more »

John Foxe
Guest
John Foxe

Dear Cryptogram,

thank you for your comments. Can you back up your allegations with any evidence? I got my history from here
http://www.cesa.org.za/pages/detailed_history_of_cesa.htm

I note the dispute was not over Gray being foisted on the church but over his foisting of Anglo-Catholicism.

Mynsterpreost (=David Rowett)
Guest
Mynsterpreost (=David Rowett)

David H touches on an area of real concern. Now that (I believe) the necessity has been removed of even <30 residentially-trained clergy having a stab at NT Greek, (let alone the other biblical languages) we risk losing connection with Scripture as (at times) an alien landscape, and the move to ‘accessibility’ in translations is compounding the problem. A case in point: I was preaching at a united service earlier in the year, at which the Gospel was Cana in Galilee. Like you do, you pick up the ‘sign’ theology, made explicit in John’s comment ‘This was the first of… Read more »

Erika Baker
Guest
Erika Baker

“lead them to worship the god called MDGs”

Can anyone explain to me just why some people seem to be so against the MDGs? I must have missed something somewhere.

NP
Guest
NP

Viriato, by the way, Desmond Tutu did a lot in the struggle against apartheid and in reconciliation but he is not the Messiah…..he can be wrong…..his personal views, pro-TEC or not, carry no special authority (I am sure he would agree!)

(I like the house Tutu has bought in Cape Town – you can still get a decent old pile for $2million there it seems!!)

cryptogram
Guest
cryptogram

John Foxe How about the Judgement of the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council dated 20 March 1865 and the documents of the first Lambeth Conference cited in Davidson: Five Lambeth Conferences (London 1920) pp 73-75, 55. If you want secondary sources too, you will find Chadwick pointing out Colenso’s connection with F D Maurice (no conservative evangelical he!) (Victorian Church 1, p.550f) and see also Victorian Church 2 pp. 90ff. That Gray became an anglo-catholic I do not deny, but his catholicism was not at issue in the Colenso schism. It was C’s lack of orthodoxy. That the schism… Read more »

Lapinbizarre
Guest
Lapinbizarre

Question – and I have no idea what the answer will be – how humble is the abode of the Archbishop of Ajuba?

Mynsterpreost (=David Rowett)
Guest
Mynsterpreost (=David Rowett)

NP:
“I like the house Tutu has bought in Cape Town – you can still get a decent old pile for $2million there it seems!!”

That was unworthy sniping, particularly from one who has defended six- and seven-figure city bonuses. I had thought better of you than that.

counterlight
Guest
counterlight

I’d much rather belong to any church including, or associated with, Desmond Tutu than with The First Church of God’s Fiery Wrath for Fags, Lib’ruls, and Feminists that NP proclaims. Speaking of South Africa, an unregenerate segregationist and tireless supporter of apartheid in South Africa became a saint in NP’s church today. I just hope Jerry Falwell meets a God who was far kinder and more full of Love than the Pastor of Lynchburg ever was. I’m sure all those AIDS dead that he slimed, along with the dead of September 11th whom he exploited and slimed, are meeting with… Read more »

Viriato da Silva
Guest
Viriato da Silva

“Viriato, by the way, Desmond Tutu did a lot in the struggle against apartheid and in reconciliation but he is not the Messiah…..he can be wrong…..his personal views, pro-TEC or not, carry no special authority (I am sure he would agree!)” Did anyone call ++Tutu a (the!) Messiah, NP? Messiah, no — but Man of God, Man of the Messiah, yes, certainly. ++Tutu (rightly) commands far more moral authority, both within Africa and worldwide, than –Akinola ever shall. In both theology and moral discernment, I’ll take the former Primate of the Province of Southern Africa over the current Primate of… Read more »

David H.
Guest

David Rowett wrote, “David H touches on an area of real concern…”

Awww come on. We all know the NIV was translated by a wide range of scholars. Everyone from Conservative Evangelicals all the way to *Extremely* Conservative Evangelicals… ;->

On a more serious note, he’s right on the money when he comments, “…and people will in thirty years have forgotten that there’s more to Scripture than Hodder & Stoughton, and forget that when reading ‘The Bible’ they’re actually reading a commentary, often with undeclared loyalties.” (tho’ in some cases not so “undeclared” 🙂

What a sad fate for Holy Scripture.

harvard man
Guest
harvard man

Drdanfee says: “Their scholarly breadth of details always evokes hope, then their closed presuppositions always end up rendering the varied details null and void in favor of just where their special thinking started in the first place. Their conclusions always involve the rest of us being wrong. In the end, neither Radner or Seitz ever much reads as if common ground across varied views is ever really possible, let alone truthful.” come on now..you may not agree with these two men, but not ‘truthful’? Cheap and beneath the scholarly (if sometimes impenetrable commentary) you offer. You can do better. These… Read more »

NP
Guest
NP

counterlight – what are you talking about?? I have never mentioned Falwell in any positive or negative way. Mynster – what is “unworthy” about stating a fact about Tutu? And, I do like his house….my greed, I am afraid! You are the one who is anti-wealth(quite rightly, in my view, given all the bible says on the subject of greed)….but I notice when someone you appear to admire happens to live like a king in Cape Town, you criticise the person who mentions the fact….. I expect you to be consistent given you are not one of the medication-dependent people… Read more »

Ricardo Tucas
Guest

I found an interesting article by Bishop Colin Bazley (former Bishop of Chile) one of the participants in the Sub-section on human sexuality, giving his recollections of the redaction of Lambeth 98 1.10, as a response to Ndungane’s

http://www.anglican-mainstream.net/?p=1673

This is my first post here. Greetings from Chile!

Chris
Guest
Chris

Cheryl Clough said,
“We are to love both the “pure” and the afflicted, the elite and the outcaste, mother and father, son and daughter, both alien and kin, our enemies and our friends”

Absolutely. There is also a call to *holiness* (Isa 35:8 and Mal 4:4) that can not be ignored.

What NP, myself and most every reasserter is looking for is a case for the holiness of homosexual acts. We’re all broken people – most with sexual sin in our lives. Why do we think God has changed the rules on a certain type of sexual sin and made it holy?

Terence Dear
Guest
Terence Dear

I found Dr Radnor’s article very thought provoking. However, it was mostly academic in respect of the current crisis. The fact is that the Anglican Communion is a federation of independent local churches. A communion that was in fact a universal ” confessional” church under a centralised governing body would not, by definition, be the Anglican Communion. The CofE, the template for Anglican churches, is a local church, not a confessional one. It is legally established as the national Church of the English people. It is ‘The Church’ in England and as such has always provided a home to different… Read more »

Erika Baker
Guest
Erika Baker

“We all know the NIV was translated by a wide range of scholars. Everyone from Conservative Evangelicals all the way to *Extremely* Conservative Evangelicals… “

Joking aside – which (modern) translations are more authentic?

NP
Guest
NP

Viriato – so, you prefer Tutu to Akinola – what a surprise – you still have to deal with TWR, The Tanzania Communique and Sept 30th coming up fast for TEC…..your hero Desmond is not having much effect in helping the cause of VGR, is he?!

And – …..is it throwing stones to mention the fact that this “Man of God” has bought a house in theCape Town $ millionaires row?

Is it throwing stones to say I like his mansion?

Lapinbizarre
Guest
Lapinbizarre

You’re doing yourself no favours, NP. Cool it. Please! Failing which, how about evidence other than your repeated “say-so”, that Tutu is living like a Renaissance cardinal? I have just deleted from this post a sentence on the alleged cost to the church of a Colorado Springs rectory, because I cannot now verify the source of the sum that I have seen quoted.

mynsterpreost (=David Rowett)
Guest
mynsterpreost (=David Rowett)

NP: you are being remarkably disingenuous, and I suspect you know it. The ‘throwaway’ comment about +Desmond’s house is disconnected from the rest of your posting, hence many of us suspect you are trying to discredit the bloke. It’s underhand and unworthy of you.

cryptogram
Guest
cryptogram

Erika asks: “which (modern) translations are more authentic?”

Probably NRSV is as close as you come (though strict accuracy is modified for the sake of inclusivity). Though it is our default version, I do find it lacks euphony, and I find NIV is useful as a fallback, though some of its renderings are – shall we say – doctrinally motivated. My personal preference is the New Jerusalem Bible.

mynsterpreost (=David Rowett)
Guest
mynsterpreost (=David Rowett)

Erika asked; Joking aside – which (modern) translations are more authentic? My two pennyworth asks ‘what for?’ By ‘modern’ I assume you mean post 1611! We used the RV (of all things) when we were at uni: it renders each Gk/Heb/Aram word with the same English word throughout, which, though it makes for difficult reading, it’s good for study and hard to ‘spin’. But it doesn’t have the Qumran material and all the other new textual stuff. At Durham we read it alongside the NEB, but that was probably because one of our lecturers had been heavily involved in the… Read more »

NP
Guest
NP

Erika – the ESV is very accurate (not the most beautiful to read but the most accurate)

(Google ESV bible)

Terence Dear
Guest
Terence Dear

Chris – you are looking for a case for the holiness of homosexual acts. But no sexual act is intrinsically holy; a heterosexual act is only made holy by the intentions of the couple and many heterosexual acts are far from holy.

Terence Dear
Guest
Terence Dear

Sorry, harvard man – when somebody is being kicked to death in a park in London or tortured in a police cell somewhere in Africa, it is sometimes difficult to remember that the rational behind these acts of violence is “lovingly held and worthy of human respect”. It is difficult to remember that the theology behind slavery and apartheid and the oppression of women was “lovingly held and worthy of human respect”. Bigotry is always wrong no matter how much “prayer, thought and scholarship” goes into defending it. HOWEVER, what Drdanfee said was that Radnor and Seitz will not accept… Read more »

Mynsterpreost (=David Rowett)
Guest
Mynsterpreost (=David Rowett)

ESV – Hm, I’d be a little happier if the list of scholars wasn’t quite so one-sided.

That’s not to criticise the scholarship as such – it’s a translation I don’t know first hand – but rather to wonder why there aren’t more non-evangelical sources. It’s good to have the Regius prof of Heb. at Cambridge on board, but (as NP posted earlier) he is Brethren in his theology.

Is this a competitor to NIV?

David H.
Guest

I think Ken Collins has a pretty good handle on the ESV: “It was translated by a group of scholars representing a diverse group of denominations, most of which are conservative on social and political issues.” (sounds about as “diverse” as the group responsible for the NIV 🙂 “(The ESV) uses archaic constructions to produce a text that sounds more literal than it really is.” “It is just as circumspect of conservative sensitivities as the New Revised Standard Version is of feminist concerns.” “If you consider yourself socially conservative, nothing in this Bible will cause offense.” And we wouldn’t want… Read more »

Chris
Guest
Chris

Terence Dear said,
“a heterosexual act is only made holy by the intentions of the couple and many heterosexual acts are far from holy”

Exactly! And I made the very point that sexual sin affects many many people – straight and gay. So why are we saying one type of sexual sin is not only acceptable to God but now *BLESSED*?

Terence Dear
Guest
Terence Dear

I’m glad we can agree on something, Chris.

Straight sex is often sinful but if used in the right way can be blessed.

Gay sex is often sinful but if used in the right way can be blessed.

I’m sorry if I misunderstood you. I thought you were saying that all gay sex is automatically sinful.

Chris
Guest
Chris

Terence, I’ll rephrase my question so you can understand my point:
So why are [post-moderns, going against 2000 years of Christian tradition and everything the OT and NT says about marriage and human sexuality, using only marginal science and an aggressive social agenda] saying one type of sexual sin [namely homosexuality] is not only acceptable to God but now *BLESSED*?

You can see we don’t agree, but I suspect you already knew that.