Thinking Anglicans

opinions of the week

Christopher Howse visited Thornham Parva and reports, in Masterpiece in a country church.

Peter Thompson, writing the Face to Faith column in the Guardian says that Religion is not a delusion but a quest for ‘home’.

Joel Edwards writes about being an Evangelical with a capital E in the Credo column of The Times, Ever heard the one about Jesus and the good news?

In the Church Times Giles Fraser thinks that Harry Potter is a true evangelist.

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Ford ElmsNPGöran Koch-SwahnePluralistCheryl Clough Recent comment authors
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Pluralist
Guest

I’m not sure what progressive religion atheist Peter Thompson is offering that therefore functions against a supposedly Aunt Sally atheism of Dawkins and Hitchens. Dawkins ahas a place for aesthetic appreciation and will debate quite reasonably with people like Richard Harries, one time Bishop of Oxford, so I think the Aunt Sally might be a Straw Man.

Good to see some reasonableness in the Rev Joel Edwards and heading the Evangelical Alliance.

choirboyfromhell
Guest
choirboyfromhell

Goodness, Christ in Harry Potter and the devil in ‘God Hates Faggots’ evangelicals, per Joel Edwards. So it would seem that Christian Religion today is very far from God indeed. In Great Britain they would say ‘bang on’, here in the U.S., if there are any of us left to say it, it would be ‘right on’.

Cheryl Clough
Guest

Choirboy I am assuming this is a tongue in cheek posting? Better to be Harry Potter who hates bullying, viciousness and cruelty; than an elitist puritan who thinks it is okay to hurt souls physically or otherwise. I once caused a priest to blush (God bless his soul for having righteousness) that if a parent can’t trust a church to look after their child’s feelings; then why would they trust them with something more important (like their soul). Those who pronounce that God hates faggots, holds a grudge against women, despises the afflicted are not consistent with Jesus’ exhortation to… Read more »

Weiwen
Guest

I’m not exactly a Potter fan, but my friends and I were debating whether or not Harry would make it. as per the Greek tragedies, he should die, at the height of his glory – that was my take. however, this is a children’s series, and so perhaps he should live – although, having many of his friends die is surely a heavy price for victory. interesting to see that JK Rowling took the salvation theme. I honestly found the film Lion, Witch & Wardrobe (didn’t read the book) to be a little cheesy, the Christian theme of salvation dressed… Read more »

Pluralist
Guest

Dr Who also joined Harry Potter in having a Christian theme – the Master in his wickedness defeated by a simple chant organised by his assistant walking about the earth that resurrected the Doctor via a kind of glory, who (then restored) decided to forgive the Master, and the Master unable to be contained and looked after for the rest of time decided to do away with himself rather than regenerate.

There are only so many stories to go around and come around, with variations.

choirboyfromhell
Guest
choirboyfromhell

Cheryl: Actually I was making a (probably poorly) statement of how far organized religion is far off the mark in Christ’s message. That the message of salvation, redemption and honor are found in a series of children’s books, while those who obviously call themselves Christians are very far from it. In the late 1990’s, fundamentalist groups where petitioning public school and library boards across the states to ban, burn and prohibit the creations of J. K. Rowling’s. In many towns they were successful, but it also instilled a thirst for the rebellious to read them anyhow. So much for the… Read more »

Cheryl Clough
Guest

Choirboy “In many towns they were successful, but it also instilled a thirst for the rebellious to read them anyhow.” Reminds me of when the gospel of Jesus was first published and the word of his teachings went out. The authorities and established priests tried to thwart, but it took on a life of its own. Personally, I love when people use biblical imagery or parables as the structure for writing plays/movies/novels (even if they have done it unintentionally). It creates doorways where one can introduce the relevant bible book to someone who liked the story. It’s also the reason… Read more »

NP
Guest
NP

choirboy…you talk of Christ’s message….but do you accept everything he said (eg on sin and judgment too)?

Or have you made up a Christ who says what you want to hear?

Cheryl Clough
Guest

NP Don’t know about Choirboy but how about ““Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven.” Luke 6:37 Or Matthew 7:1-6 which includes ““Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.” Which is consistent with James 2:12-13 “Speak and act as those who are going to be judged by the law that gives freedom, because judgment without mercy will… Read more »

Cheryl Clough
Guest

Np

My posting of http://www.thinkinganglicans.org.uk/archives/002563.html#comments applies here too.

Cheers

Stop attacking. In your judgement, you find yourself judged.

NP
Guest
NP

Cheryl….I am not sure what s”Gaia” says about this issue but you too are ignoring all the verses which say we must judge teaching and teachers must meet God’s standards….why is that? You should be familiar with verses warning us to beware of wolves looking like sheep and verses saying leave unbelieving areas, shaking dust off feet…we are told be wise and make these judgments…..this is not the same as judging someone’s salvation – hope you understand that. We are not to judge on a person’s salvation – yes BUT we are all certainly told (eg 1Cor5:12) to judge whether… Read more »

Merseymike
Guest
Merseymike

You make the assumption that ‘God’ has ‘standards’…which, surprise, surprise, coincide with your opinions!

We are back to the simplistic pre-modern view of Daddy God in the Sky who is some sort of big human directing the world from above.

Can’t wee grow up a bit and consign this to the nursery school?

choirboyfromhell
Guest
choirboyfromhell

“…you talk of Christ’s message….but do you accept everything he said (eg on sin and judgment too)?”-NP

That’s a very personal question. What relevance does it pertain to in this thread? I believe the subject was about Harry Potter and the morphing of evangelicals into neo-facists and not my personal acceptance or non-acceptance of Christ’s teachings.

You have proven Edwards’s column very well.

NP
Guest
NP

Merseymike…yes, no surprise because (like the Church of England), I am going by the standards we find in the Bible….you may not know this but the CofE actually states its belief in the said book and has standards for leaders which do not aim to please non-Anglicans with a particular bent (eg you) but actually to be faithfull to God’s standards as set out in his word.

NP
Guest
NP

choirboy….the pathetic thing is that when you find out that Edwards is actually very conservative on the issue which dominates round here, you will not be so keen on what he has said.

Cheryl Clough
Guest

God does not end the narrative (e.g. Daniel 12:4), God will continue to reveal as and when there is a need. Possible demise of an entire biosphere definitely constitutes a need. Some wolves like to terrorize their victims before they kill. There is a difference between a protective mother wanting the best for ALL her children and an Esau who plunders and murders. Jesus shows a protectiveness for prophets e.g. Luke 11:47-52 or Luke 24:25 “How foolish you are, and how slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken!” 1 Corinthians 3 “…I could not address you… Read more »

NP
Guest
NP

well done, Cheryl….lovely verses but you have not got us to any conclusion……

-for a start, you do not address the point I made i.e. we are told to judge teaching and not accept false teachers (you misapply the “do not judge” statements)

– secondly, since you like finding verses, please find me a verse to prove Lambeth 1.10 is wrong if you want me to accept VGR et al;
(a verse from the bible, not Gaia please)

Erika Baker
Guest
Erika Baker

” secondly, since you like finding verses, please find me a verse to prove Lambeth 1.10 is wrong if you want me to accept VGR et al;”

There isn’t one that would be acceptable to a legalistic mind and a cold heart.

But then, Jesus came to free us from those approaches to God.

Göran Koch-Swahne
Guest

Well NP, you can start with the gospel of Matthew and when you’ve finished with that you can go on with Mark…

NP
Guest
NP

Erika says “There isn’t one that would be acceptable to a legalistic mind and a cold heart” with regard to my request for any verse to contradict the interpretation of the Bible agreed on by all the Anglican bishops in 1998, found in Lambeth 1.10 Erika…you would have been correct if you said “There isn’t one” ….full stop. Maybe only those who want to read a special exemption can see it….given the words are not there to justify such an exemption. Erika…..you know I did not write Lambeth 1.10….but it is based on the interpretation of the BIble of the… Read more »

Cheryl Clough
Guest

NP You and I will never agree. You consider me to be a false teacher and I you in kind. The difference between you and I is that I welcome anyone who would come to the communion table and seek to put their lives in order. Further, I would reform the churches, the state and families so that individuals are not abused and desist from being abusive. I would start with not throwing accusations or passing judgements, as none of us are without sin and all have fallen short of God’s glory. I encourage people to make the most of… Read more »

Göran Koch-Swahne
Guest

“Pls look at why most of them voted as they did in 1998 and why there would still be a majority for the same interpretation of the bible if the same question was asked today. People are not merely stating their preferences or making it up – they are striving to be faithful to their scriptures and Anglican tradition….”

Well NP, believe this if you will…

NP
Guest
NP

Cheryl, Goran …. you are aware that Lambeth 1.10 is the teaching of the Church of England, right??

There is no church endorsing MY views!
I am sticking to the stated positions of the Church of England, based on scripture!

Goran – I would love to see another vote….note that Changing Attitude et al do not campaign for this as they would lose by a large majority (again)

Simon Sarmiento
Guest

NP
Why do you believe that the Church of England has formally adopted as part of its “teaching” that Lambeth resolution?
That would require action by the General Synod.

NP
Guest
NP

Simon….simply because the the resolution was saying nothing new….it re-stated the church’s understanding of scripture and the resultant standards required of clergy……all the resolution said was in effect that the CofE was not deviating from 2000 years of Christian teaching and tradition on a particular issue. Formal adoption of a resolution which said the opposite to this would have been needed!

The ABC says that Lambeth 1.10 represents the “mind of the Commuion” so I believe the CofE has not changed its interpretation of the bible despite his past writings……

Cheryl Clough
Guest

Lambeth 1.10 is a political machination. We have seen in the from recent Nigerian Church representative elections, Tanzania and elsewhere that some souls seem to relish organisational political manouvering in forms that would make a Stalinist proud. Lambeth 1.10 might be some bishops’ teaching, but it is not Jesus nor the oral or written tradition from the Torah in which Jesus was groomed. As Simon pointed out earlier, Robinson was ordained BEFORE Lambeth 1.10. Robinson is human, he is honest, he does not hide what he is. NP might be male or female, might be human, and lacks the balls… Read more »

Cheryl Clough
Guest

Lambeth 1.10 is the machinations of some church officials. It does not represent the teachings of Jesus nor the Torah. It represents the political machinery of limited bishops seeking to conserve the status quo and their “status”, irregardless of its cost to humanity’s ecological viability, the degradation of women or the abuse of the vulnerable (including women, the afflicted or children). Those who cling to elitism are stating they condone abuse of the “outcaste” or “unworthy”. They demostrate a fundamental lack of faith in God to redeem the righteous, irregardless of “who they know” or “what they have done”. It… Read more »

Göran Koch-Swahne
Guest

NP wrote: “Cheryl, Goran …. you are aware that Lambeth 1.10 is the teaching of the Church of England, right??” Wrong. Lambeth I.10 1998 is one paragraph out of 15 resolutions of the 1998 Lambeth conference. There are dozens of resolutions and hundreds of paragraphs. Now, Lambeth conferences are tea and cakes, not Councils of the Church Catholic. They do not issue “teachings”. Nor is the Lambeth conference the Church of England. So sorry, there is no “stated position”. Nor does the Church of England have anything more or other than a discussion paper. It is called Some Issues in… Read more »

NP
Guest
NP

Goran….you know that old liberal Rowan Williams who is the Archbishop of Canterbury?
He says Lambeth 1.10 “represents the mind of The Communion”

I trust his judgment more than yours….

Göran Koch-Swahne
Guest

Sorry NP, but “the mind of the communion” (= the bishops assembled at Lambeth conf.) does not mean either “law”, “teaching” or any of the things you like to say.

There is something seriously wrong with your reading abilities.

NP
Guest
NP

Goran..amusing to have my comprehension challenged by you….anyway, have you noticed that the ABC’s ACTIONS have not been to contradict “the mind of the Communion” in the last few years????

Göran Koch-Swahne
Guest

Actio? Contradiction!

I haven’t noticed him doing very much in the last years, Lambeth 2008 invitations apart…

Not very pleasing to the minds of the Communion, it seems ;=)

Pluralist
Guest

NP – it is “general mind of the communion” plus:

_But there are nonetheless two things that I believe will be relevant and helpful to bear in mind. First, in response to Resolution 1.10 of Lambeth 1998, and with the encouragement of ACC 2005, a process has begun of collecting and co-ordinating work done in the Provinces about the issue, reflecting the experience and discernment of Anglicans around the world._

http://www.anglicancommunion.org/acns/articles/41/25/acns4127.cfm

In other words, diverse experience as it is around the world.

It is all rather optimistic, given the expected boycott, and then there might be minds of communions.

NP
Guest
NP

I look forward to seeing the Goran spin on things when TEC(USA) says it cannot meet the demands of the Primates and Rowan Williams has to finally aknowledge that his great efforts to keep TEC(USA) in the AC have failed……we will see in the months following September how things pan out but I think the ABC who gave us TWR and the Tanzania Communique will not let the AC shrink to a small, left-wing sect and he will preserve unity amongst the greatest number possible in the AC

Ford Elms
Guest
Ford Elms

“will not let the AC shrink to a small, left-wing sect”

He might not be too keen on it turning into a large group of right wing heretics either.

Göran Koch-Swahne
Guest

Well NP, as I will in Germany visiting the cradle of my family, the grave of the signator to the un-changed CA 1530 and the 1580 Book of Concord, his brother our fore father, and our second cousin Elisabeth of Thuringia, and so on, I’ll most probably will be off line…

I wish you and Surbiton good luck, you’ll be needing it ;=)

But remember, the Church is at the same time much worse and much blessed, than you (the sect) can ever imagine.

NP
Guest
NP

Laughable!
Ford and Goran…..please note I am not calling for the AC to change to suit me!

I am calling for the AC to honour its creeds and stick to its agreed positions including Lambeth 1.10 – this position has the support of all the Primates of the AC (including the double-minded KJS)…….so, you are calling the majority of the AC a sect and you still must ignore TWR and Tanzania to make such a silly point!

Anyway, you made me laugh out loud – thanks for that!

Ford Elms
Guest
Ford Elms

NP, I’ve never disagreed with the facts that you have spun into the Battle of the Sons of Light and the Sons of Darkness. It’s just that you take specific points and turn them into a morality play. The majority of Anglicans are as appalled by the Americans being so open minded their brains appear to have fallen out as they are by the Evangelicals who seem to have had their brains beaten out by a steel plated Bible. Most people in this diocese do not know the New New Testament you keep quoting, the Book of Lambeth chapter 1… Read more »