Thinking Anglicans

Canterbury visit to US: first stories

Both the Living Church and the Church of England Newspaper have stories previewing the next American House of Bishops meeting, 20-25 September in New Orleans. The Archbishop of Canterbury will attend the first two days.

Living Church U.S. Bishops Ask Archbishop of Canterbury for Clarity by Steve Waring

Bishops who have made a public commitment to support the Windsor Report have asked the Archbishop of Canterbury to be clear and articulate in explaining what the consequences will be if the House of Bishops fails to give the assurances sought by the primates.

Seventeen diocesan bishops and one bishop suffragan from The Episcopal Church received an extensive briefing on the primates’ communiqué from the Rev. Canon Gregory Cameron, and shared with him their hopes for the meeting in September between the Archbishop of Canterbury and the House of Bishops during a conference held Aug. 9-10 at Camp Allen near Houston…

Church of England Newspaper Williams ’set to be manipulated’ by George Conger

THE ARCHBISHOP of Canterbury’s Sept 20-21 meeting with members of the US House of Bishops in New Orleans will seek to manipulate Dr Williams into giving the Episcopal Church a clean bill of health so as to preserve its place in the Communion.

Conservative American leaders claim the Episcopal Church will seek to resurrect a report presented to the February Primates’ Meeting prepared by a small group within the Joint Primates-ACC Standing Committee that said the Episcopal Church had met two of the three requests of the Windsor Report and deserve a reprieve.

The meeting will be used to “manipulate” Dr Williams, the Bishop of Fort Worth, the Rt Rev Jack Iker said on July 31. The leaders of the American House of Bishops believe “If we can talk to Rowan, face to face, we can convince him of the rightness of our position and that he will stand with us,” he said…

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liddon
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liddon

If only it were true that he could be manipulated by them. As soon as he was appointed, Williams gave assurances to anti-gay and anti-women priests that he would stand by them, giving the impression that he would take the shape of anyone who sat on him. It now seems that he has been fixed in that shape, and no attempt to change him by the American bishops will have any effect. It seems to me to be likely that if the Holy Spirit had been active in his appointment, then it was to install a liberal at Lambeth. He… Read more »

Leonardo Ricardo
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Leonardo Ricardo

“The meeting will be used to “manipulate” Dr Williams, the Bishop of Fort Worth, the Rt Rev Jack Iker said on July 31” +Iker, Fr. Worth I find Iker to be amazingly forgettful…he doesn’t even attend HOB meetings generally so how can he project “manipulate” or anything else? If any religious political faction is “manipulative” it’s clear-as-a-bell with George Congers/Jack Iker’s smudged up reporting/projecting of other Christian peoples intentions…perhaps George Conger and Jack Iker can tell us with their “magic tricks” what the Holy Spirit has in mind as a “message” for the upcoming HOB meeting in New Orleans with… Read more »

Cheryl Clough
Guest

Such attempts to condemn ABC if he is kind to TEC are fear mongering. The benefit is that souls know that if they are kind to TEC some elements are going to be “their enemies”. http://www.virtueonline.org/portal/modules/news/article.php?storyid=6517 http://www.virtueonline.org/portal/modules/news/article.php?storyid=6522 I know I shouldn’t read these things, but the misrepresentation and vitriol being directed at TEC is staggering. The first article is outraged that TEC has resources and is prepared to use them. Where is that same vehemence when their side sponsors other dioceses and even nations? (South Africa 1987 comes to mind) The second article refers to social experimentation and suggests there… Read more »

Pluralist
Guest

The meeting between Rev. Canon Gregory Cameron and the Windsor bishops was held in radio silence, so nothing can be inferred from that, and the Church of England Newspaper Williams ’set to be manipulated’ by George Conger contains little other than Bishop Iker muddying the waters early and Bishop Keith Ackerman supposing how the meeting will go. They are using, from their point of view, pessimism and cries of manipulation to try and sway things in their favour ahead of time. Presumably the reality is around Rev. Canon Gregory Cameron’s presentation and listening to the Windsor bishops. Consisency with what… Read more »

Weiwen
Guest

Lordy, the arrogance. Why did we ever consent to Iker’s election as bishop?

drdanfee
Guest
drdanfee

It seems wise to wait and let discernment and manuevering unfold, with the inevitable shifts and surprises of a varied range of contexts over which nobody, absolutely nobody, has all that much say. Still. Hard to resist reading between the lines, when two spin doctors like Conger and Iker are trotted out in such a national media venue. One possible is that Conger/Iker are aiming to rally the con-evo troups, lest they fall asleep waiting with lamps untrimmed for the arrival of the Anglican realignment bridegroom who has indeed come like a thief in the veritable institutional night of what… Read more »

Neil
Guest
Neil

Canon Cameron is worryingly a little lightweight – and (like a lot of other staff though he was Welsh imported) should have been replaced by more talented people at Lambeth. I know myriad top quality people who would have been delighted to work with Rowan – but he arrived with ‘chaplain’ Cameron and retained the Carey losers.
However I am delighted to hear he has left the forces of reaction in a complete panic about the ABC!! I await the confident chorus of ‘bring it on, bring it on,’ from Miss NP as usual.

EPfizH
Guest
EPfizH

The audience for this is surely not ++Rowan. He knows what +Iker and +Ackerman are up to. I know that George Conger is also considerably to the right of center. So, for whom is this spin? I can’t help but think it is the primates. Dar es Salaam was the the ultimate manipulation. We now know, only through the court documents, that +Duncan et al. had worked out a PV scheme, in secret, with the GS, four months in advance of Dar. The scheme asked for a APO from the GS core, oversight that would virtually eliminate TEC from exercising… Read more »

Lapinbizarre
Guest
Lapinbizarre

“Manipulation” – a situation in which you can’t bully everyone else in sight into doing precisely what you demand that they do – in contrast to the Dar es Salaam Diktaat and the Precious, Infallible Lambeth 1:10, neither of whose origins has anything to do with bullying and manipulation?

Cynthia Gilliatt
Guest
Cynthia Gilliatt

“The meeting will be used to “manipulate” Dr Williams, the Bishop of Fort Worth, the Rt Rev Jack Iker said on July 31. The leaders of the American House of Bishops believe “If we can talk to Rowan, face to face, we can convince him of the rightness of our position and that he will stand with us,” he said…”

So for Iker to talk to Rowen face to face and convince him of the rightnes of our position is to “manipulate” him?

This is called pre-spin.

Anthony Keller
Guest
Anthony Keller

I’m somewhat confused in that the ABC is to be first among equals, but time and time again people want to treat the office as head of some “curia”.

If our polity dictates this is the road we are taking, then we ought to take it. But, at the same time, in plain and clear language, we need to state our position, made clear that we have prayed, studied, and chosen to walk with Jesus down this path.

JCF
Guest
JCF

Kind of ironic: the (so-called) “Windsor Bishops” are being pretty explicit re *their* intention to manipulate the ABC. . . yet +Iker claims that the (non-Windsor, so-called) *majority* of the HofB will do so!

Frankly, I have no doubt that anyone and EVERYONE tries to manipulate Rowan Cantuar. More importantly, I fear the sad reality of his being more concerned w/ *posterity*, than *morality* (i.e., the equality of all the Children of God in the AC, inc. the LGBT ones) has guaranteed that he will leave NEITHER in the AC. I hope I’m wrong.

Hugh of Lincoln
Guest
Hugh of Lincoln

Who should have a chance encounter with ABC while dining at Café Milano, in Georgetown, Washington, D.C. on June 10?…Christopher Hitchens!

As Hitchens reports in Vanity Fair: “Signor Franco leads us to a nice table outside and I sit down—right next to the Archbishop of Canterbury. O.K., then, this must have been meant to happen. I lean over. “My Lord Archbishop? It’s Christopher Hitchens.” “Good gracious,” he responds, gesturing at his guest—”we were just discussing your book.”… I ask him how it’s going. “Well”—he lowers his voice—”I’m rather trying to keep my head down.”

http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/2007/09/hitchens200709?currentPage=3

ABC must have choked on his Prosciutto.

Cheryl Clough
Guest

dradanfee

I wonder if it is because of the lack of oil for their lamps that they are unable to distinguish between the bridegroom and a seductive womaniser? (You know the kind, whispers compliments and promises to respect you, but in the morning is no where to be found and pretends they never knew you in the first place).

Prior Aelred
Guest

Open discussion to persuade could be described as “manipulation,” but it oughtn’t to be.

FWIW, I supported the (controversial) elections of Iker & Schofield & Ackerman because I really believe in “big tent Anglicanism,” but having finally accepted that they don’t, I’ve wised up & do not support the election of Mark Lawrence.

Presumably, the Windsor bishops, of whom my own bishop is one, do oppose the repeated boundary violations of various Global South primates & accept that dialog could lead to acceptance of full inclusion of gays in the church (contrary to the so-called “Global South” position).

John Henry
Guest
John Henry

Prior Aelred wrote: “I supported the (controversial) elections of Iker & Schofield & Ackerman because I really believe in ‘big tent Anglicanism,’ but having finally accepted that they don’t, I’ve wised up.” I fully concur. Initially, in early 1997, at the consecration of a bishop in which +Jack Leo Iker participated as well as +Carolyn Tanner-Irish, I thought that ‘big tent Anglicanism’ still had a chance. Since then I have been appalled at +Jack Leo’s behavior during hearings at General Convention… storming out of the room (like a naughty child) when a feminist or a gay/lesbian person approaches the microphone… Read more »

Malcolm+
Guest
Malcolm+

In the world of Public Relations, this is known as “expectation management.”

Iker et al expect to lose. By claiming that the meeting will be “manipulation,” they can write off their stunning loss as a mere set back.

Pluralist
Guest

The piece by Christopher Hitchens above tells a lot. Rowan Williams, spotted, asked how it’s going, says he is keeping his head down. You’re telling us! Actually he didn’t want to tell anyone; he was keeping his head down. I wonder if this is a bit like me: “I must do this – I hate doing this.” Much later, “I really must do this – nope, can’t.” As time goes on, I look for sand to bury my head. He must be like that rabbit on the road seeing headlights blasting, unable to move, to then move too late so… Read more »

Cheryl Clough
Guest

Pluralist Those who survived the World Trade Centre were those who ignored the advice of the complacent, and fled. Having had one appalling outback drive at sunrise over two decades ago, my suggestion is be a crow. Just jump to the side of the highway and allow the juggernaut to go through. The crow can then go back to consuming their carrion until the next juggernaut appears. It takes a lot less energy and there is a greater survival rate. In the meantime the express juggernauts to Zion don’t have to worry about hurting unsuspecting birds that didn’t have the… Read more »

Pluralist
Guest

Yes, Rowan should have been a crow. But he isn’t. He is a rabbit. So, given that he is a rabbit, and in the road, what should he then do? The Lincolnshire rabbit I ran over would have been fine if it had continued to stay where it was. By the way, the rabbits around the Humber Bridge are clever – they stay on the grass and in numbers. My wife shouts “Zaichiki!” at them (actually, hares) which is also her pet name for me. So it is best if a rabbit does not get on the road in the… Read more »

Cheryl Clough
Guest

Pluralist My daughter and I have a joke when she wakes up grumpy in the morning (it cheers her up too). She walks around with this dazed look and her mouth partly open. I told her she looks like she just ate a goldfish, is contemplating whether or not she actually did eat a goldfish, and thus whether or not she liked the experience. The problem with some rabbits is they see the lights of the juggernaut coming their way, are stunned by the light and contemplate what it means, then at the last minute decide it is a bit… Read more »

Cheryl Clough
Guest

Pluralist, please forgive me for failing to recognise the biblical link in your posting. Of course God would not want his flocks (or rabbits) to be unaware of the needs to stay out of the way of the drivers of four-wheeled vessels. God warned us in Ezekiel 10 e.g. “Then the glory of the LORD rose from above the cherubim and moved to the threshold of the temple. The cloud filled the temple, and the court was full of the radiance of the glory of the LORD… the LORD commanded the man in linen, “Take fire from among the wheels,… Read more »

Pluralist
Guest

Returning to the Archbishop – there is a serious point here. Why not indeed just sit there at meetings, ask what people have done, keep the invitations going, and let the circus begin. Perhaps Rowan Williams should be an isalnd of calm while all the parties act in a mad, frantic manner. After all, he is not going to be able to meet demands himself, as that is up to others, and he can hardly change matters, but just facilitate means by which they variously can meet. If they want to play games, let them. After all it is just… Read more »

NP
Guest
NP

because, Pluralist…the ABC does not want to see parishes leaving the CofE let alone provinces who have not broken any agreements leaving the AC – this explains his behaviour in Tanzania etc

MJ
Guest
MJ

Speaking of Bp Iker, is there any truth (this time!) in the following rumour that seems to be growing? The timing seems apt too – just after the Sept 28th deadline. More in the next post. 7th June – The Continuum (http://anglicancontinuum.blogspot.com/2007/06/personal-prelature.html) “Oh, and you might also spare a glance for Rome as well — if that is true which I heard the other day, that at a meeting of the SSC clergy of the Fort Worth ECUSA diocese (together with Bishop Iker) with the RC Bishop of Fort Worth, Bp. Vann, the latter announced that Rome will soon be… Read more »

MJ
Guest
MJ

Here’s some more on that rumour: July 28th – The Bob Catholic Show (http://anglopapist.wordpress.com/2007/07/28/is-a-personal-prelature-for-orthodox-anglicans-imminent/) “I have heard rumors (from various reliable sources) about the possibility of a Personal Prelature for Orthodox Anglicans in the near future. My information is that a document is to be signed by the end of the year by a group of Anglicans. The group in discussions includes Orthodox Anglicans from around the world and (here is the twist!) is not exclusively the Traditional Anglican Communion. The group includes sections of the Canterbury Communion and parts of the Continuum.” 16th August – Virtueonline (http://www.virtueonline.org/portal/modules/news/article.php?storyid=6522) “On the… Read more »

MJ
Guest
MJ

Regarding the rumour of a Personal Prelature in my previous posts: The American who heard the rumour in England mentioned by David Virtue appears to be William Tighe. In his comment to the original post on ‘The Continuum’ he was sceptical. However, after visiting England he posted the following on ‘Stand Firm’ on Aug 11th (http://www.standfirminfaith.com/index.php/site/article/4978/) – “It was of some interest to me to learn that rumors of a forthcoming Vatican “initiative” to make wider and more generous provision for Catholic-minded Anglicans to enter the Catholic Church (perhaps in the form of a Personal Prelature) had reached some of… Read more »

L Roberts
Guest
L Roberts

Must be fun playing Church like this –so much excess time and energy for all this stuff ….

(sermon on the mount is a million light years away)

Pluralist
Guest

_this explains his behaviour in Tanzania etc_

What, that the Archbishop was sat horrified that some of these prelates with an alternative headquarters came up with speeches about gay people which showed nothing but ignorance? Extremely unpleasant.

Ah yes, then about the pope. It seems that he is circling above, watching, and thinking about plucking off a few morsels for the Roman Catholic dish. If so he can forget any piano duet with the Archbishop.

http://www.exacteditions.com/exact/browse/397/440/2434/3/8/0/piano%20duet

NP
Guest
NP

L Roberts – have a read of Galatians….it is not new for people to have to confront false teaching in the church….we are not playing!

Pluralist…so the ABC was “horrified” and agreed to the communique demanding unequivocal statements from TEC with a deadline????
Hmmmm….you are not spinning what actually happened very well!

MJ
Guest
MJ

My mistake, William Tighe was not the sceptical post on the Continuum comments. In actual fact, he himself posted on this on Titusonenine last November 11th: http://titusonenine.classicalanglican.net/?p=16162#comments “I have heard that a proposal is due to land on the pope’s desk on November 16, a proposal that has something to do with facilitating the entry into the Catholic Church of disgruntled Catholic-minded Anglicans. I know nothing of the details, but I would guess that it might involve some sort of expansion and “globalization” of the present “Pastoral Provision” set up some 20+ years ago here in the USA for Episcopalians… Read more »

L Roberts
Guest
L Roberts

Roberts – have a read of Galatians….it is not new for people to have to confront false teaching in the church….we are not playing!

Coulda fooled me ! No repsonse to the sermon on the mount then ?

Take your pick of true teaching from the Adventists, Anabaptists to anglicans, via (Greek) Orthodox,RC denomination, Salavation Army to Unitarians to Welsh Calvinistic Methodists (etc)……

The Choice is yours ! Go ahead, feel free !

(but don’t get too worried if we all make different choices — or none!)

Cheryl Clough
Guest

NP

I’ve always like Ephesians 6:12. It was rather bemusing to have a church leader tell me it doesn’t apply to Christian churches because they’ve been saved by Jesus and can’t make mistakes.

Events of recent history would indicate this sould meant their side can’t make mistakes.

One of the greatest travesties of this recent theology is the “dumbing down” of the holy scriptures. It is rather like unilaterally giving God liposuction because some have decided the body is too big. Some souls like abundant earthly mothers and prefer complex conversations over vain preening.

Ford Elms
Guest
Ford Elms

MJ, I love it! Here, 50 odd years ago we had a referendum about joining Canada or returning to independence. We chose the former. One of the factors that guided the day, this place having the Catholic/Protestant bigotries of England and Ireland in its culture, were claims that the RCs were in favour of independence, and there were even sermons preached on it. This rallied the Orangemen to the Confederation cause. I wonder if, given the kinds of sentiments sometimes stated around here, the possibility of “Papism in the woodpile” might turn some of our more traditionalist anti-gay people against… Read more »

NP
Guest
NP

L Roberts….tell me point you are making in referring to sermon on the mount…and I will respond. You know it says “blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteouness” and not “blessed are those who teach that what God has always said is a sin ain’t no more!”??? Cheryl – I agree with you that we need to study the scriptures thoroughly and not dumb down. We also must avoid being fooled by those who seek to avoid very clear teaching by over-complicating interpretation. The point is, we need to know what God has said and what he is… Read more »

Ford Elms
Guest
Ford Elms

“No repsonse to the sermon on the mount then ?”

Ever notice how Conservatives in the US are always going to court to force the State to allow them to put the Ten Commandments in public places like courthouses? No-one ever demands the right to publically post the Beatitudes. “Thou shalt not…” leaves far more room for self-righteousness than “Blessed are….” I guess.

MJ
Guest
MJ

Ford Elms – “This looks like one of the more enjoyable chapters in this depressing little book.”

Well, it would certainly solve the problem of containing conservative Evangelicals and Catholics in one body. Those Catholics who can swallow it will join Rome’s ‘Prelature’, the Evangelicals will gather in an Abujan ‘Anglican’ Communion, and the rest will be soaked up by whatever united ‘Continuing’ Church remains. Problem solved. Until they realise it’s not that great and come trickling back 🙂

Ford Elms
Guest
Ford Elms

“this is why we have to stick to the bible (it protects us from people with agendas teaching whatever suits them,” Right. No-one ever uses Scripture to justify their personal beliefs. Gotcha. NP, how can you be so naive? Oh, right. Scripture tells us we have to judge other’s teachings, which enables you to make the outrageous claim that “false trachers are not my neighbours”! You say so many things that I can imagine having said when I was 17, likely even said when I was 17. But, “when I became a man….” I’m sure you can give chapter and… Read more »

Cheryl Clough
Guest

NP is worried about things becoming overly complicated? Is love, forgiveness, mercy, compassion, humility overly complicated? Or is it overly complicated to decide that it should apply to all souls? Is ending tyranny overly complicated? Is it easier to just accept that pure heterosexual Christians are the only ones allowed to be tyrants? Actually my theology is far less complicated that yours. My theology does not entail guessing who is allowed to be the tyrant and allocating tithes accordingly, it says that ALL tyranny should end. Nor does my theology entail guessing which of our children will grow up to… Read more »

Cheryl Clough
Guest

MJ That is their real conundrum. If they leave us alone, we can build a compassionate communion that models what it is like to live without tyranny, abuse or corruption. Their fear is not only that their own will come trickling back but that the masses will come pouring in. It is the same as they can’t say that GLBTs hate God and are immoral sexual gluttons if there are known GLBTs who say they love God and live morally consistent with the standards of heterosexual couples. They desire a beast, woman, GLBT without a face or manifestation so they… Read more »

L Roberts
Guest
L Roberts

This is right Cheryl.

The cat is out of the bag in the consistent criticism of Gene V. Robinson as ‘openly gay’.

Not gay. Openly gay.

This is so dishonest.

Ford Elms
Guest
Ford Elms

L Roberts, Not only that, but how dare he, an obvious degenerate homosexual who abandoned his family and flaunts his perversion, live in a manner showing more holiness than most of his opponents? How dare he deny that he abandoned his family? We don’t care what his wife and children don’t agree, he abandoned them for a life of sexual promiscuity. When he chose to be gay in defiance of God, he chose to be promiscuous. And how dare he forgive those who made it necessary to wear a bullet proof vest at his consecration. Condemnation of gay people is… Read more »

L Roberts
Guest
L Roberts

Yes, Ford, you are right

and the other strange thing is that such an outstanding evangelcal should be so rejected and unsupported by fellow evangelicals and other fellow orthodox Christians.

Cheryl Clough
Guest

Hmm.

Don’t forget, they can’t possibly love him. He is neither their friend nor their enemy. He’s gay. So obviously Jesus exhortation at Matthew 5:43-48 doesn’t apply to Gene, or anyone else like him, or anyone else who would advocate on behalf of him or his kind.

Ford Elms
Guest
Ford Elms

“that such an outstanding evangelcal should be so rejected and unsupported by fellow evangelicals”

First of all, he’s an Evangelical!?!?!?! Well, this should go a good way to breaking my bigotry! Deo gratias! Second of all, in the eyes of his Evo opponents, he, by definition CAN’T be an Evangelical. I don’t even think that in their hearts they’d even consider him a Christian.

And, Cheryl, “false prophets are not my neighbours!” Pretty much sums it up. I don’t know if you know the provinence of that quote, but it isn’t mine!

NP
Guest
NP

Ford…..as you know, most of the church for the last 2000 years and today would agree with the interpreation of the bible in Lambeth 1.10 – right? This is the issue that has to be addressed…..assertions on VGR’s holiness mean nothing. The issue is about what is right and wrong in the AC……and also whether we have to accept in the AC people who do whatever they like regardless of the views of the rest of the “communion” I see someone like Rowan Williams maturing quite differently to you…..he wrote liberal opinions years ago but now when it comes to… Read more »

Ford Elms
Guest
Ford Elms

NP,
“Do you think that rather than coming to a mature understanding of scripture, you may be simply ignoring certain passages as they are inconvenient for you?”

Are you certain you aren’t? My sins are between me and God, yours are between you and God. Mother Julian of Norwich said we should pay no attention to the sins of others, but concentrate on our own sins. “Traditions of women” in this case, I suppose, but echoed in Psalm 37, NP, and it sounds so much better in the KJV. And you might want to apply Psalm 46 to your situation as well.

Ford Elms
Guest
Ford Elms

“assertions on VGR’s holiness mean nothing. The issue is about what is right and wrong in the AC” You do realize that this could have come from the mouth of a first century Pharisee, right? Holiness of life means nothing, one must obey the Law? That is in direct opposition to what Jesus preached. Matthew 15:11 (and verse 18) should give you something to pray and meditate on. It is NOT about having the “authority” to eat a bacon sandwich. And why are you so triumphant about what +Rowan will do? He is in an unenviable position, having to please… Read more »

L Roberts
Guest
L Roberts

I know Ford it makes me smile too.

I have never heard an anglican speak so personally and naturally of Christ as does Gene, and that includes that great evangelist John Stott, to my mind. Gene Robinson is just so simple, natural ,matter of fact and quaietly draws my spirit towards Christ …

a rare gift

Pat O'Neill
Guest
Pat O'Neill

“…most of the church for the last 2000 years and today would agree with the interpreation of the bible in Lambeth 1.10 – right? “ And until the mid-19th C. most of the church (actually virtually ALL of the church) found that slavery was not only moral, but Biblically mandated. Until the early 19th C. all of the church held that the events of the first chapters of Genesis were a scientifically accurate description of the beginnings of the universe and of life on this planet. Are you saying it is impossible that the church was wrong in any interpretation… Read more »